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Yoyoyo wrote:
You might have to go counter-meta here, bad or not.

If you are getting shot of the board that's not better!

Maybe? I really need the ground presence against lots of other foes, though. I just can't jump on the SR bandwagon to counter Tau. If I draw Gladius, and I'm packing SRs, I just lost. Automatically.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You might have to go counter-meta here, bad or not.

If you are getting shot off the board that's not better!

Shooting Riptides is a dead end, so you will need to assault I think...

Despite that, killing the supporting army quickly is probably more productive than any other action you could take against the Riptides

It pains me that this even needs to be explained. It's absolutely true.

"Despite that, killing the supporting army quickly is probably more productive than any other action you could take against the Riptides"

BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The Tau can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up. Tau players aren't dumb. They protect their fragile units with kill zones that you can't get through. I don't use many pods, because against the whole field, pods suck for BA. "Gee, I'd like to use the furious charge but I just came down in this pod. I guess you can shoot me now, so I never get to use my furious charge."

Things would play out a lot differently with AV 12 transports I think so fire warriors couldn't HP them out.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up.

That's the point of null deployment, flyers and and charge from DS, you're minimizing damage from the enemy.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up.

That's the point of null deployment, flyers and and charge from DS, you're minimizing damage from the enemy.

Which would be great if I were tailoring for Tau. But I'm not. That list fails hard against too many archetypes I battle frequently. Like Gladius. If I were tailoring, I would just go straight to Angel's Fury and tell the Tau enjoy your interceptor shooting phase, because it's the only one you're getting. But Angel's fury is a terrible generalist list. Something like Jancoran's CSM list would rape it.

YOU are either planning for Tau or you're wasting time in this thread. So which one is it? Are you or ARENT you going to plan for Tau?

How many times have I stated that I don't know my opponent ahead of time. So how could I possibly plan for Tau? I could draw green tide for all I know. I just said that if I WERE planning for Tau, I'd just use Angel's Fury and be done with it. But I'm not going to do that, because Angel's Fury is an autolose too much of the time. My problem with the Riptide is in an all-comers environment, and the fact that is soaks damage better than a Knight.

Wow, I'm finding sour overtones in quite a few Dakka threads these days.

OP- Maybe you should clarify what your looking for in your first post.

I guess a sanity check of sorts. Although the jury seems rather split on this issue. I guess I continue to be dumbstruck that this thing is so much better than much more expensive iks. It's side thread from an original thread where tau players were complaining about itc nerfs.

A lot of advice is centered around the idea of never bothering to even try to fight this thing, which seems so disheartening. Kill all the support and just suck down 18 pie plates over 6 turns?

Nobody's split on the durability of the thing. That's why you need to fight it asymetrically.

Drop it to T5 with Enfeeble and hit it with a Vindicator, assuming FNP it's now more than 5 times less survivable.

Nobody wants to suck down 18 pie plates... but if you're not given a choice, it's better they don't have Ignore Cover and +4 BS, right?

 Byte wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

Are you referencing the SMS? That is one weapon on each tank, yes it is TL'd, it is S5 AP5 meaning it can normally only shoot down air support when it gets rear armour shots. However, if you are saying they are missile pods, which are S7 AP4. Then your opponent is cheating.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are fast, but not fast enough to do that. The Tau can pop a lot of transports and fry the guys in side super fast. Or just fry the jump pack guys straight up. Tau players aren't dumb. They protect their fragile units with kill zones that you can't get through.

It may be my group plays on different boards than you (ones with lots of terrain to block LOS) and sure, not all are super competitive. But my SoB have yet to lose against our Tau player. I have little trouble scooting Rhinos and Immolators up the field to get at him, and by the time my outflanking Dominions come in it's usually a total rout for any Tau infantry (and he also lost several vehicles that turn). I never manage to kill all his suits, but that doesn't matter when I win on objectives that he can't contest without putting his precious suits in my Exorcists' sights.

If I fought him on a parking lot he would win every time, of that I have no doubt.

edit: and ofc, I usually outnumber him severely - if I bring 81 sisters he has at most 35-40 models. So what if half the sisters become martyrs as long as the xeno scum burns?

This has been a pretty decent discussion ignoring the fact puma has been saying Dreadknights get to charge after they shunt and choose what table they roll on.

Nocturus wrote:

 Byte wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

Are you referencing the SMS? That is one weapon on each tank, yes it is TL'd, it is S5 AP5 meaning it can normally only shoot down air support when it gets rear armour shots. However, if you are saying they are missile pods, which are S7 AP4. Then your opponent is cheating.

Hardly, there are multiple variants of the Hammerhead. Do your research.

That is one of the varient HH's from the Taros Campaign then. I've never seen someone field them. I'm aware they exist though I wasn't aware it was two missile pods I thought it had a different stat line. I own both the second and first edition of the Taros Campaign, so I'd appreciae if you take your town down a bit with your "do your research" comment. You didn't mention they were swapping out their main weapons for something outside of the Tau codex. Something I'm fairly certain most people don't do.

Nocturus wrote:
That is one of the varient HH's from the Taros Campaign then. I've never seen someone field them. I'm aware they exist though I wasn't aware it was two missile pods I thought it had a different stat line. I own both the second and first edition of the Taros Campaign, so I'd appreciae if you take your town down a bit with your "do your research" comment. You didn't mention they were swapping out their main weapons for something outside of the Tau codex. Something I'm fairly certain most people don't do.

To be fair, we have already had three Tau players be completely wrong about a unit in this thread already. Kind of getting sick of it.

I face 2-3 Riptides and a storm surge. My opponent uses marker lights and a buff commander to boost his army. The range, ap, ignore cover and rules limit what I can do. It's not easy but it is doable.
I am of those that feel that tau need a Nerf, but I don't think you know what you want. You can make a list to counter tau meta or a TAC. Pick one. You can't have both. Sorry.

I stopped running land raiders when the D hit the table. I retired much of my deathwing with my latest codex and because of tau rules I don't run my Ravenwing in full if I may be facing tau. Why? Because I know that I will complicate things by doing so.

Do I wish for buffs? Not really. Do I hope for tau balance? Absolutely. It's established that tau is top dog (or at very least a contender) and blood Angels are on the bottom (or close to) in the codex list.

So just admit that fact. Know it in your core and make peace with it. If you face tau bring a list any play your strengths. If you have no strength then don't face tau. Or make a TAC knowing that you will probably die horribly. Sell your Angels as deeply as you can and make Dante proud.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody's split on the durability of the thing. That's why you need to fight it asymetrically.

Drop it to T5 with Enfeeble and hit it with a Vindicator, assuming FNP it's now more than 5 times less survivable.

Nobody wants to suck down 18 pie plates... but if you're not given a choice, it's better they don't have Ignore Cover and +4 BS, right?

Fun fact: DarkStrider + Gunrig = one shot Riptide. Whuuuuuuut. But yes!

I mean assuming you're wondering what a really low cost way to kill one is. =)

@Martel,

Could you go over the process your group uses to decide matches? Can you have more than one list ready and choose after you know your opponent? Or do you guys frown on that?

Spetulhu wrote:
I have little trouble scooting Rhinos and Immolators up the field to get at him... It may be my group plays on different boards than you (ones with lots of terrain to block LOS)...

I usually outnumber him severely - if I bring 81 sisters he has at most 35-40 models...

I never manage to kill all his suits, but that doesn't matter when I win on objectives that he can't contest without putting his precious suits in my Exorcists' sights....

If I fought him on a parking lot he would win every time, of that I have no doubt.

Sorry for rearranging your post Spetulhu, I wanted to highlight something. Model count is important, you can't play to objectives if your force is so fragile you get tabled. If you build around damage output rather than resiliency that's a big risk.

MSU DC is great but they've got the same problems as Warp Talons, in lacking an Invul save they're even more fragile once you shut down FNP and take away Cover. Comparing 5x Warp Talons (160pts, ~32ppm) to 5x DC (140pts w/JP, PF, ~28ppm) :

Death Company versus 5x S8 AP2 hits : 5(5/6) = 4.16W(28ppm) = ~116pts
Warp Talons versus 5x S8 AP2 hits : 5(5/6)(2/3) = 2.78W(32ppm) = ~89pts

DC and Warp Talons obviously wreck face against their perfect targets, but keeping them alive against hard counters isn't exactly simple. I mean, Warp Talons are perfect for tearing up Gladius infantry, but you'd probably do a double take if you saw a list with 3x squads of them. And without FNP and Cover, DC begin to exhibit a lot of the same pros and cons.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
wow.. just.. wow. Find a tau player who is willing to trade sides for a game or 2. Use the riptide as this stationary turret/invincible behemoth that you guys are calling it, and see how it works for you. because i bet its your other units that do more of the work

Hard to do proper army swaps when most people wanting a swap just pack lousy armies. Completely focusing on all the wrong units.

Facing my own tau with lists of my own design though? Gladly. Got quite a few armies I want to try out but can't really afford.across multiple factions.

Imagine a reply full of tetchy sarcasm about various things. The kind of sarcasm that doesn't adhere to rule 1.

But yes, I'm focusing on the wrong units, maybe I should focus on the other things in the Chaos codex, like mutilators or warptalons, I'm sure they'll help deal with riptides.

For the god knows how many times already-the fact your codex is a FAILURE OF A CODEX AND NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN has no bearing what-so-ever on anything else any other army has. riptides included.
And it was a faliure of a codex even before riptides were originally introduced.
(Though honestly, I mostly lashed at BA players so far, but CSM is just as bad if not worse)

The chaos codex is the problem, not the riptide, because the chaos codex is underpowered compared to the vast majority of the game.
Every "generic marine" unit in CSM is overshadowed by its loyalist counterpart. sorcerer excluded (though once you factor formations and special characters, sorcerers are also overshadowed by librarians)
Cult units often fail at their own specialization even compared to CSM generic units. let alone loyalist counterparts. (Zerkers are usually outdone by khornemarines, noise are high I with no grenades and a mishmash of guns with little focus, 1Ksons are painful to talk about)
Daemon marines are mostly overpriced (possessed), or cause anti-synergy with themselves from how badly they are designed (mutilators, warp talons)
Daemon engines are often overpriced (defiler), tanks are inferior to their loyalist versions or just lack options (land raiders for example)

Practically 90% of the CSM codex needs to be buffed to bring it in line with the relevant armies. saying they have a hard time against riptides is a non-issue, as they can't fight anything worth a damn to begin with.
And that's highly unfortunate, as they are my second favorite faction, and for a long time I wanted to start a chaos army but just can't bring myself to it with the horrid rules they have.
Had I been tasked to write a new CSM codex. I would have scrapped it entirely, erased it from existence and wrote it from scratch, because that the extent of rework required to fix that mess.

 Byte wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)

 Crimson Devil wrote:
@Martel,

Could you go over the process your group uses to decide matches? Can you have more than one list ready and choose after you know your opponent? Or do you guys frown on that?

You bring a list, and then draw an opponent from a hat basically. Usually there are 8-12 people. You can't change your list after you draw.

 Byte wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)

I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?

I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.

Redacted.

 Byte wrote:

 Byte wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, they're hyper dangerous. But if you pump a Sternguard squad into them, and then assault with DC, you have a shot. These events don't happen against Riptide, because your units literally kill themselves trying to get to range. Well, not literally, but you get the point.

If they have EWO and FNP, what's responsible for the Tau AA?

Hmmm, let me see. Armoured Interdiction Cadre; 1 skyray, 3 hammerheads each w/2 TL missile pods with velocity tracker = 490 points

You've seen the missilehead on the table?
I'm amazed, even when tailoring against flying army its an odd choice. and outside tailoring, taking that much is absurd. especially when the hammerhead gains nothing of the formation, it has no effect on it.
No reason to ever see this setup on the table if you are not getting tailored. so I'll have to toss it under "Schrodinger's Tau". the fact Tau has a tool, does not mean it will be on the table. points are limited.
And if you DO see it (somehow. its very much NOT a TaC choice. only good against light aircraft, hardly a threat to AV12.), you already know most of the tau's list. between that AIC and a minimal riptide wing, we are looking at 1030 points before any upgrades, and there is 150 points or more in necessary upgrades. and at bare minimum 220 points into marker support, we are almost at 1500. no room for much else. and there still isn't any anti-tank and anti-horde is the list.


(Though the amount of tau players here not aware of this unit is sad. well, forgeworld tau are not all too commonly known and used. especially in the new age of contingents.)

I was simply answering a question. I could have easily just as said FSC with velocity tracking HYMP Missilesides. I don't usually bother to much with marker lights. TL'd volume of fire works just fine.

About the Missilehead, BS4, 4 TL'd str 7 that can choose to shoot ground and air targets at full BS. How is AV12 safe?

Because S7, even with great accuracy, does not get passed AV12 all that often. a missilehead shooting at AV12 flyer will average out 0.59 glances and 0.59 pens. that's not enough to down your average plane. and given the lack of interceptor, the plane has a chance to shoot first, and many planes carry anti-tank guns that will force the hammer to jink, greatly reducing his threat.
Naturally the 3 hammers WILL take down a raven if it won't jink, but 3 hammers also cost far more than a single raven they cost almost like two. and he will have the first shot, and between its multimelta, missiles and lascannon, it will force a jink, and perhaps take one down anyway. so they are having a decent standoff where either may win. by unlike the hammer, the raven is not a dedicated shooter, but a transport with guns.
It not useless by all means, but its not exactly a hard counter.

The FSC with VT on its suits is all around is far more threatening, but has its own issues (less mobile so getting clear off it's range is easier, and the broadsides are FAR easier to remove, especially by aircraft)
For pure AA usage, I'd also consider the new Air Superiority Cadre. its surprisingly good given how lackluster razorsharks are. you will almost always catch rear shots with it when relevant, and skywatch almost assures you will have the drop on him in perfect timing.

 Byte wrote:
I use all variants of Hammerheads. I fav is the 2 long barreled burst cannon BS4, Str5, ap5, hvy12 36". I usually take those in 3s with the skyray.

Heres a 1850 list I use when I'm feeling grumpy.

AIC- LBBCheadsx3, skyray VT
FSC- H burst cannon-tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
FSC- H burst cannon tide, EWO, VT. 2 Missilesides HYMP, EWO
Riptidewing- Ion-tidesx3, EWO, VT

That's a 1850 list comes in at 1810.
For 2000, I reduce some VT and add a Drone net. (scoring and marking)

I only use this when I play good sports. I would never play a pick up game with this and my local events don't usually allow multiple detachments.

Heh. cute list.
More than enough AA, a lot of anti-interceptor, good shot count for hordes between dakkaheads, dakkatides and broadsides, and you army consists of mostly hard targets.
Dakkaheads are amusing. I keep trying to find chances to use them just for the "HUH?!" effect, especially with the overwatch upgrade.


Well, tearing this list apart....
No real marker support, so any cover save (ab)user is going to work well, and your dakkatides cant aim well.
Little in terms of heavy duty anti-tank means high AV is also a big concern.
No stims on riptides means every NOVA you make is a risk, and the HBCtides won't be nearly as threatening (BS3, no

Depending on my list, the "soft spots" for me to attack will be either:
The FSCs-broadsides are not that hard to kill, HBCtide too dependant on his NOVA to deal damage, so they will hurt themselves a bit.
The AIC-some anti tank guns should fix these, or at least force jink saves-and while jinked, the threat is reduced. can't trust on deepstrikers though, so my long guns/fast assault will have to do. (depending what army I'm playing)

The ripwing, I'll probably choose to just avoid and take cover until I take down the rest. they don't do too much damage without marker support.

Also, if I have any AV14-you are in trouble. your only real answer is the dakkatides, and they are not exactly the go-to solution here. even hen NOVA is active and tank hunter, without marks you are looking at 1 damage result, MAYBE 2.


This list might do fine in a competitive scene, but I suspect the lack of markerlights will hold it back.
I'd be glad to face it. will probably lose my first attempt as I am heavy into deepstrike with my tau-but I believe my "dream renegades" list will win with relative ease, had I had the models.

Stormravens aren't a viable unit in general, so this discussion segment is largely moot. You don't need AA against most lists, which means it doesn't go into a generalist list.

Nice analysis. I know a lot of Tau players don't like taking flyers or dedicated AA, that can be punished. With Markerlights they will be more effective but due to restrictions on systems, they only have so much EWO and VT to go around. AV12 isn't trivial to crack either and the Stormraven has no weak side, even hovering.

Martel732 wrote:
You bring a list, and then draw an opponent from a hat basically. Usually there are 8-12 people. You can't change your list after you draw.

Scatterbikes are going to be generally ineffective against an AV12 flyer, Wraithknights with Guide are bad news but lack Interceptor or Ignore Cover. That's one of your major issues solved already. If you can stick 3-4W with the Stormravens, it's not impossible to kill the WK before it strikes with Dante and Astorath.

Greentide is interesting. 10x Tacs have mediocre output but gain CC potential due to their size. Can IC's change the equation? Challenges remove the Nob. A Priest with FNP and Crown Angelic will blunt damage. Dante will let you H&R out of combat to shuttle your ICs into a fresh squad. Stormravens can simply hang back and hover to contribute as AV12 gun platforms.

Gladius is going to suck but Krak Grenades, FC, and various ICs should wreck the army. Same idea as Greentide, gun down Rhinos with hovering AV12 and PotMS, use your beatstick ICs to eliminate Marines, soak wounds with FNP tacticals, shuttle the ICs into fresh squads when appropriate.

Scout tax and Damocles eat up 185pts, it's sensible to keep the charge from DS available so add a Command Squad and Angel's Wing.

So it would look like this:
- Angel's Fury (3x SR, 3x 10 Tacs)
- Damocles Rhino
- Sang Priest (Veritas Vitae, Crown Angelic, Angel's Wing, MB)
- Astorath
- Command Squad, Jump Packs, 2x SS
- 2x Scouts
- Dante

It's going to be a very interesting fight against that Tau list above. It really comes down to geometry and dice. If the Stormravens can set up a solid charge and lock most of the Tau units, BA has a very real opportunity to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Stormravens aren't a viable unit in general, so this discussion segment is largely moot. You don't need AA against most lists, which means it doesn't go into a generalist list.

Let me know what's viable for BA against that Tau list!

I honestly don't know. SRs are just so expensive...

Ah you mean prices in real life?

I feel that brother. That's why I prefer theorycrafting