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After dealing with an overabundance of power lists, I have decided to drop all pretense of reasonable, friendly list building and go for some hard, killy, no nonsense power. And so, this list was born. I am basically trying to build the cheesiest possible list, without sacrificing fluff. Even so, I am on the verge of just running two lash princes, and a buttload of oblits.

The idea here is very simple. Use the raiders, packed with berzerkers, to charge up the center, with the DPs hiding behind them for cover. The chosen can provide a little mobile anti-tank support, and the Greater Daemon is just a cheap, high Toughness CC bomb.

HQ
Daemon Prince 160
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 160
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Greater Daemon 100

Elites
5x Chosen 180
- 4xmeltas
- AC
- Rhino

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Heavy Support
Land Raider 220
Land Raider 220
Land Raider 220

HQ
Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Elites
5 Terminators, pair LC x 3, chainfist, powerfist, heavy flamer, land raider

Troops
8x Berzerkers
- AC/PF

8x Berzerkers
- AC/PF

8x Berzerkers
- AC/PF

Heavy Support
Land Raider
Land Raider
Land Raider

4 is more better than 3.

fatal your list seems to be over by ten points. The chosen and greater demon seem unnecessary. The greater demon especially has to kill a valuble berzerker champion to come in. Since you are dropping all pretenses then you may as well go whole hearted LR spam. This is what i would do:


Khorne LR Spam 2000pts

HQ

Lord 120
Mark of Khorne
Power Weapon
Melta Bombs

Elites

3 Terminators 365
Heavy Flamer
Chainfist
Landraider
Demonic Possession
Havoc Launcher

Troops

10 Khorne Berzerkers 250
Champion
Powerfist

10 Khorne Berzerkers 250
Champion
Powerfist

10 Khorne Berzerkers 250
Champion
Powerfist

Heavy Support

Landraider 255
Demonic Possession
Havoc Launcher

Landraider 255
Demonic Possession
Havoc Launcher

Landraider 255
Demonic Possession
Havoc Launcher

2000pts

Demonic possession means they LRs can always shoot, which is good because these kind of lists are quite low on firepower. The havoc launchers add to otherwise poor anti-horde and the terminators with the flamer can be sent to clean out anything thats hiding in cover with their heavy flamer.

You dont need demon princes for this build (the only type of CSM build where you dont) and having a lord saves points for more landraiders. With extra points swap him for a sorcerer with Wind of Chaos.

The downsides are that you still dont have much firepower and have few scoring units. You may struggle against true mech and true horde armies if you dont concentrate your fire and if your berzerkers are caught out in the open they wont last for long but a multi-charge from them can deal with anything.

Make sure you dont get out of your LRs unless you absolutely have to. The big AV14 bunkers are what will win you games as most armies just cant deal with them. If you werent making a khorne list i think PM with two flamers would be better than berzerkers because they are that much better at dealing with stuff in cover, which you may have problems with.

I like the idea, and that list seems hard to stop. Khorne Princes are actually 140, and as others have said, you should give the land raiders Daemonic Possession.

I was looking at Daemonic Possession - the GD was an afterthought, mostly.

The main reason I am not including terminators is the exceptionally poor performance of the ones in my current list. For the price of, say, 3 termies with Combis and a heavy flamer, as well as power fists, or triple lightning claws, a Space Marine player can get four termies with a better invul save, and better CC (TH/SS). That's not even including the cost of a Mark for my terminators (which is as expensive as another termie), AND their raiders get a higher transport capacity!

Not to mention that for some reason, I have awful, awful luck with termies. I always roll a one. ALWAYS.

While I can agree that DPs aren't necessary for this list, they do provide a good AT punch, and Chaos Lords are just abysmal stats-wise, especially for only 20 poitns less than a DP. A Sorceror, of course, won't fit in with the Khorne theme. Either way, for a week or so at least, I will only run 3 LRs, because I only have 3 of the models.

In your list, Regwon, that Lord would need terminator armour or one berzerker would have to go, or he would not be able to accompany any of the land raiders into battle. I suppose technically he could join the termies, but I hate mixing saves where I can avoid it. The other problem is that while Havoc Launchers are nice, I find that my raiders are typically moving for at least the first two or three turns, and when they soot, it usually winds up being at other armor. I just don't see any justification for the points going into those launchers.

So, here is a list with only 3 Raiders:

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Heavy Support
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP


This leaves me with 250 points. What would be best to fill this with? Don't say mix things around and add a 4th raider - I don't have one yet, and three will have to do meantime. Don't get me wrong, I will add another raider, but not until I can afford it in a month or so.

Two squads of 8 lesser demons to drop down and take objectives may be nice, or a rhino with 10 more berzerkers.

I have an idea for you it may be a bad idea but IDK I kind of like it. I play alot of nids so I use Gaunt screening alot and a 4+ cover save is alot better than a 5+ invulnerable save. Anyways my idea is to use 2 squads of 5 raptors to screen the Daemon Princes. That will leave you with 50 pts of the 250 you had left from the new list you made. You can use the left over points for what ever upgrades for those two squads you want.

I personally believe this list will get stomped. In my experience, you actually *need* CSM in a CSM army. When you look at the raw number of bodies you have, and the fact that those bodies won't be shooting, you can't do enough damage to accomplish anything. You will lose at KP because you won't be able to kill enough, and you will lose at Objectives because you have to be assaulting things to kill them, meaning those things get shot to hell on the subsequent turn. To make this worse, the best splashable shooting (Obliterators) can't be fit into this list how it is. I say start over, or at the very least, add a Regular CSM squad. A Balanced Chaos List outperforms a Cult-heavy one any day of the week.

I disagree. CSM shooting would be a boon to a Khorne assault heavy list, but I have found them to be somewhat lacking overall. Cult marines are not much more expensive, and tend to hit alot harder. It seems to me that alot of people either hate CSM and think they suck, or they swear by them and put them in every army list they run. I have found them to be highly mediocre troops, neither excelling or failing. I have had a few instances where I felt they might be useful, but I have never really needed them. Berzerkers are more than capable of winning in annihilation games, especially with those tough to crack land raiders, and objectives are frequently located in cover. Even in exposed areas, I still have a large number of raiders to act as mobile cover.

I would also like to point out that people seem to have a ridiculous hardon for Oblits, and, while they are definitely excellent units, they are not a required part of any army, and would be a detriment to a land raider spam force.

The rhino and more berzerkers is something I considered, though with the points left over, it would probably be closer to 7 or so zerks. The Daemons could be useful as well, though I find them to be pretty lackluster units overall. The raptor idea has potential, especially with two squads (equipped, ideally, with flamers or meltas, they could be a useful mobile firebase for eliminating enemy armor or hordes. They won't be necessary to screen the DPs, though, as they can move up behind the raiders, which actually provide cover (infantry can't give MCs a cover save).

Unforunately, I've been posting these list variants from memory, so I am not sure what the cost of Raptors would cost, but I'd imagine I could fit in at least one squad of about six, with PW/PF, and flamers/meltas or one of each.

However, assuming (based on drummerholt's post) a raptor is 20 pts, with special weapon upgrades costing the same pts as they do in a chosen or CSM squad, I could run the list as follows:

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Fast Attack
5 Raptors ~120
- 2 melta

5 Raptors ~120
- 2 flamer

Heavy Support
Land Raider 245
- DP
- Dirge Caster
Land Raider 245
- DP
- Dirge Caster
Land Raider 245
- DP
- Dirge Caster

This would leave me 5 points over, but it's only a rough outline, without knowing the exact costs for raptors.

I know the casters are probably unnecessary, but I have a tendency to tank shock often, and I would model them as something else more khornate and intimidating.

I'm just saying that your army skips a phase. TL Lascannons only go so far. Berzerkers don't really kill everything in Assault. You need a balance or else you're crippling yourself from the start.

I understand, and the raptors may help to mitigate, but, point for point, CSM don't just stand up to, for example, Tac squads, who have the same cost, are tougher to break thanks to ATSKNF, and get their heavies/specials for free. I'm open to suggestions to add a bit more shooting to the army, but I don't think that CSM would really cut it, especially since, for the first few turns, they would be the only infantry target available.

Here is my take on you list with one minor change. I have taken off the Dirge Casters and changed one of the Raptors from flamers to an Icon of Khorne. This gives you a tank & heavy armored infantry hunting DP/Raptors and a High attack Raptor/DP combo. Hope you like it!

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Fast Attack
5 Raptors 120
- 2 melta

5 Raptors 130
- Icon of Khorne

Heavy Support
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP

That looks pretty good, drummer. The other thing I considered was kind of a best of both worlds thing with the raptors. Just do one squad, with IoK, 2 meltas/flamers, and a PW/PF (PW with flamers or PF with meltas, for specialization), and as many raptors as I could fit. Probably be around.... 6-8, depending on whether I get a champ w/PW or PF or not.

fatal_GRACE wrote:That looks pretty good, drummer. The other thing I considered was kind of a best of both worlds thing with the raptors. Just do one squad, with IoK, 2 meltas/flamers, and a PW/PF (PW with flamers or PF with meltas, for specialization), and as many raptors as I could fit. Probably be around.... 6-8, depending on whether I get a champ w/PW or PF or not.

I like that idea. But I guess its more of a taste thing. I like the idea of have a screen for each prince so that they can act independently from each other while preforming specific tasks. Although the one squad also has its advantages ex. one less killpoint ect...
And I like the idea of this list so much I'm probably gonna make one eventually and if it doesn't turn out to be the best list it seems fun to play.

The problem with trying to use raptors to screen a DP is that it simply doesn't work.

Infantry models do not provide cover for MCs, so even with a line of them in front of him, he still receives no cover save.

oh well then my idea isnt the best lol

But they still can preform the task that they are set out to do 2 melta shots at a tank and a max of 15 attacks from the IoK unit still sounds good.

But I do like the idea of raptors for those other purposes. Two squads as you laid out is more than the points I can spare, but this will work:

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Fast Attack
8 Raptors 210
- 2xmelta (or flamer)
- Icon of Khorne

Heavy Support
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP


This has the added benefit that there are 6 raptors - the favoured number of Khorne.

fatal_GRACE wrote:But I do like the idea of raptors for those other purposes. Two squads as you laid out is more than the points I can spare, but this will work:

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Fast Attack
8 Raptors 210
- 2xmelta (or flamer)
- Icon of Khorne

Heavy Support
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP


This has the added benefit that there are 6 raptors - the favoured number of Khorne.

The Raptor squad would only be 190 pts as you laid it out? I think... flamers are cheeper than meltaguns.

I'll check my codex and adjust the points in a bit. Meanwhile, I realized there is a typo. There are 8 raptors, the favoured number of KHorne, not 6. Adjusted!

HQ
Chaos Lord, Terminator Armor, Lightning Claws, MoK 140

Elite
3x Chaos Terminators 90
Land Raider Dedicated Transport, Demonic Possession, Havoc Launcher 255

Troops
10x Zerkers, Champ w/ PF 250
10x Zerkers, Champ w/ PF 250
10x Zerkers, Champ w/ PF 250

Heavy
Land Raider, Demonic Possession, Havoc Launcher 255
Land Raider, Demonic Possession, Havoc Launcher 255
Land Raider, Demonic Possession, Havoc Launcher 255

I've toyed around with the idea of this list for a long while. The thing about any landraider list is that it is not about assault or shooting. It's about defense and straining your opponents anti-tank ability. It is simply a denial game. You hide your raiders, don't worry about the things that cannot hurt them. Seriously go down the table and just ask what each thing has, if it can't penetrate AV 14 mark it off as inconsequential. The rest of the game is about eliminating the the threats to AV 14. Move into position to assault these targets with your superior assault units of Zerkers, the termies and Lord you can usually win most assault in a single turn and be back in the raider the next turn. Smoke is pretty critical to the first few turns as you position yourself for the kill on the threats on the board. Hiding the rest of you raiders behind a train with the first in line turning sideways and smoking is the best idea in the world. The real crucial turn is the fifth turn. Park on objectives that turn or assault weaker units off of objectives this turn, with multiple units if you must. Most KP missions will go to you regardless, and if your having any worries just try to pick off the weakest unit specifically. In assault if need be.

First off, I like your list with the two princes and a Greater Daemon. I run that combo with Land Raiders in my Khorne lists and it works really well. Also, while taking 3 Land Raiders full of Berzerkers is a one dimensional list, it is a one dimensional list that works really really well. Getting 30 berzerkers, 2 daemon princes and a greater daemon into your opponents face unscathed really ruins his day.
But with the left over points, I would not take raptors. I would take a squad of terminators with combi-weapons. Any of the variants has their purpose. Dont worry about spending a massive amount of points on making them good in CC, just make them a combi-weapons delivery system. The ability to deepstrike a bunch of plasma or melta guns and pretty much guarantee that your target will die is very helpful. It also lets you reach out and hurt things that might be running from you.

These are all good suggestions. Here are a few possibilities.

The core of the list will revolve around the 30 zerks and 3 raiders, with the two DPs up front. This leaves me with 250 points to play with. For the time being, I won't carry a fourth land raider - as I mentioned before, it will be about a month before I can afford it. I can do the following with the points:

7 terminators w/ Combi-weapons (squads of 3 and 4) - 245 pts. This leaves me five points for a random goodie like a dirge caster.

8 Raptors w/MoK, AC/PW, flamers or meltas - 230 or 240, leaving me 10-20 pts for goodies.

Any combination of the above, such as 4 terminators w/combis (140) and 5 Raptors w/flamers or meltas (110-120)

Any combination of the above, w/ a Greater Daemon, such as 4 termies w/combis + GD.

I like the 8 raptors or the GD w/ termies the best.

It seems like, from a tactical standpoint, filling the points with suicide termies or the termies+GD are the best.

All the options are fluffy, though it chafes a little to run any units without MoK.

If it bothers you do not run something without Mark of Khorne, then what if you did this:

Screen your Daemon Princes with the Land Raiders so they cannot get shot up.
Take rhino dedicated transports for your berzerkers to screen your land raiders, or to simply cause chaos in your enemy's lines, and take the greater daemon.
thats 205 points, and gives you a few more points to tweak things. Just an idea.

^ Thats how I play my khorne.

Taking squads of raptors/demons/ect.. to screen something is a terrible use of points. Thats paying a hundred or more points for a guy who is 140.

Screening with land raiders and running rhinos is great. Everybody bails out at once. The land raider troops get the charge then, the next turn the rhino guys move in and shot/charge. Works very well.

I'm not sure that running empty dedicated rhinos would work out so well - they just add Kill Points to be lost without gaining me very much. However, I do like the idea of a few more zerks in a rhino, so I have narrowed it down to two choices here:

HQ
Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Daemon Prince 140
- Wings
- Mark of Khorne

Troops
10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

10x Berzerkers 250
- AC/PF

Heavy Support
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP
Land Raider 240
- DP

EITHER
8x Berzerkers 243
- AC/PF
- Rhino
At a total of 1993 pts

OR

Greater Daemon 100
4x Suicide termies (plasmas or meltas) 150
- One champ
At a total of 2000

Either way, I wind up with two more kill points in the army. Plasma terminators would be excellent at taking out hard enemy infantry that is giving me trouble. I could alternately put a flamer in with said plasmas and deal with hordes a little better. Meltas would be good for on the fly tank hunting. Since both are the same points cost, I would be able to choose just before each battle, giving me a little flexibility. Upgrading one terminator to a champ gives the GD another place to come in, and is a fairly appropriate place to put it, since they are suicide termies anyway.

Both are good options, so it will be a solid list no matter what.
As for combi-weapons, you have to include in your list what kind of combi weapon they are and then model them appropriately. You cannot simply choose before each battle what you would like them to be. This would be extremely helpful, but alas, its not the way it works.

I am afraid my words were misleading. I have the models to represent either meltas or plasmas, and a heavy flamer as well. It is just a matter of choosing which models to field.

oh, sorry. Well then that is flexible!

Hope to see ya do well with this Kyle. What you played against last week was brutal forcing you now to get brutal in return! Your a good and fun guy to game with glad to see your not discouraged but determined. KICK SOME A**!!!!