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Howdy all.

Well ive just finished putting the some final touches to the first draft of an updated version of the Lost and the Damned rules.

This takes the extra fix up done on Wargamerau a few years back (and then posted here), as well as some of the new rules from the new Imperial guard and Chaos Marines / Daemons.

Update! Version 1.02 is now up (i know I didnt post version 1.01 since we were busy talking about it on Wargamer au. But you can see it down below if you want)

Version 1.02

Changes from Version 1.0

- Cult leader rule made more simple
- Undivided champion now has infiltrate
- Traitors are now cheaper (weapons included)
- Mutants "Blessings of the Gods" have been made cheaper
- mutants Firearms and Las pistols now both free
- Krak grenades knocked down to 1 point
- Plague zombie rules now use the USR's
- Gibbering Hordes are cheaper.

Changes from Version 1.01

- Irrelevant Army Special rules removed
- Icons and Daemon summoning special rules fixed up
- Unique weapons descriptions added
- Arch Heretic rule now has added option for A Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker.
- Plague Zombies now have their own entry based on the Apoc Datafax
- Big mutants, Scaly upgrade has been removed and replaced with the option to take a Chaos Icon.
- Big mutants now have the Bulky rule similar along the lines of the Ogryn special rule.
- Chaos Spawn fast attack option from codex chaos space marines now available
- Chaos Abomination has been changed from the original version from original lost and the damned. It is now replaced with a version almost identical to the Giant chaos Spawn from Imperial armour Apocalypse.


Please let me know what you think.

Here is the previous version for comparison.
Previous version 1.0
Previous version 1.01

Should I combine this with the KK thread or keep separate?

Separate please. This is my own doing, separate from the KK crew.

My thoughts:

A: Glad to see somebody updateing the list!
B: Traitors are really overcost when compared to what they are based off of... The basic Guardsmen.

IG are 5pts each. Traitors are 10pts each and have worse stats. (-1 LD) Even with infiltrate they should cost no more then 6 pts a model.

C: This list needs access to oblits for flexability. I say make them Elites and limit them to 0-1 (So max 3)

As a LatD player since the day the Codex came out, I like to see people trying to update it. Helps me with ideas on what to do (and what to avoid!) when I eventually get around to doing my own version for the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited Project.

Anyway, so, this one. Well, Traitors spring to mind with some issues:

Traitors should cost no more than regular Guardsmen. Infiltration is heavily heavily offset by the LD6. Frag Grenades shouldn't cost anything because... well... who needs Frags when you're a Guardsmen? They're of no real use.

Why are Krak Grenades 2 points a piece?

Why are their HW costs greater than that of Guardsmen?

Why does the Grenade Launcher cost as much as the Plasma Gun?

For the Aspiring Champs, keep in mind that these are all W1 models. 60 points for an Aspiring Sorcerer that has a single wound? Minimum 80, actually, as he has to take one of the stupidly overpriced Chaos Psychic Powers?

Plague Zombies are written in an awkward manner. If they're Fearless there's no reason to explain that they pass Morale Checks/Cannot be Pinned. Furthermore, say that they have Slow & Purposeful rather than always counting as if in Difficult Terrain. No sense in having identical rules with different names or wording.

GW overcosts multi-wound models. Case in point - Gibbering Hordes. No reason for you to do the same.

Might as well make Big Mutants akin to Ogryn and give 'em T5. Don't make 'em 40 points each though. 25-30 is enough.

Otherwise it basically works as a list. It's a nice translation, even if the basic structure is flawed (but that's not your fault, that's GW's fault with their current crop of crappy Codices).

H.B.M.C. wrote:As a LatD player since the day the Codex came out, I like to see people trying to update it. Helps me with ideas on what to do (and what to avoid!) when I eventually get around to doing my own version for the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited Project.

Anyway, so, this one. Well, Traitors spring to mind with some issues:

Traitors should cost no more than regular Guardsmen. Infiltration is heavily heavily offset by the LD6. Frag Grenades shouldn't cost anything because... well... who needs Frags when you're a Guardsmen? They're of no real use.

Why are Krak Grenades 2 points a piece?

Why are their HW costs greater than that of Guardsmen?

Why does the Grenade Launcher cost as much as the Plasma Gun?

This seems to be a common complaint so far.
The points costs for the units i took directly from the Original lost and the damned list. Since this was a first draft i didnt want to start messing around with the points right away. I figured if I keet it as much in line with what GW originaly did then there would be less room for me to make ballance issues.

For the Aspiring Champs, keep in mind that these are all W1 models. 60 points for an Aspiring Sorcerer that has a single wound? Minimum 80, actually, as he has to take one of the stupidly overpriced Chaos Psychic Powers?

That one was taken from the Thousand sons aspiring champion. You have to also take into account that you the champs are always going to be surounded by either mutants or traitors and cant be singled out in CC since they are not IC's.

Plague Zombies are written in an awkward manner. If they're Fearless there's no reason to explain that they pass Morale Checks/Cannot be Pinned. Furthermore, say that they have Slow & Purposeful rather than always counting as if in Difficult Terrain. No sense in having identical rules with different names or wording.

Fair call. Again another GW transcription error

GW overcosts multi-wound models. Case in point - Gibbering Hordes. No reason for you to do the same.

Might as well make Big Mutants akin to Ogryn and give 'em T5. Don't make 'em 40 points each though. 25-30 is enough.

I did think about that, but then big mutants are statted and costed almost the same as Ork nobs with big choppers, but they have the extra wound. And a unit of 10 of those lead by a Champion is nothing to shrug off atm.

Otherwise it basically works as a list. It's a nice translation, even if the basic structure is flawed (but that's not your fault, that's GW's fault with their current crop of crappy Codices).

Turbo_MMX wrote:The points costs for the units i took directly from the Original lost and the damned list.

Oh I know. Traitors in the LatD book cost 8 points a piece, which was a Guardsmen (6) + Frags (1) + Infiltration (1). Of course, GW forgot that they reduced the Ld to 6, making the Agitator basically mandatory for a simple Ld7 (and that added 1 point to the cost of every model). I've always had a problem with that cost because, whilst Infiltration can be extremely useful for a firepower unit (deploy after the enemy has = GOLD!), the loss of Ld and the fact that you were paying for (and utterly useless set of) Frag Grenades did not make them worth 33% more than a Guardsmen. They are worth the same, at most.

Turbo_MMX wrote:That one was taken from the Thousand sons aspiring champion. You have to also take into account that you the champs are always going to be surounded by either mutants or traitors and cant be singled out in CC since they are not IC's.

I know. But an 80 point single wound model is a bitter pill to swallow.

I did think about that, but then big mutants are statted and costed almost the same as Ork nobs with big choppers, but they have the extra wound. And a unit of 10 of those lead by a Champion is nothing to shrug off atm.

Mob rule.
WAAAAGH.
Power Klawz.
Furious Charge.

Big Mutants are not Nobz.

While we're on the topic of Mutants, just a couple of things.

1. Mutants - 4 points each. They're not worth 6, not when an Ork boy is worth 6.
2. Firearms - These are a hopeless joke that no one takes. Did you know that you kill more of your own unit than you do of the enemy when you shoot a full unit of these? There's no benefit to taking Fire Arms.
3. Let the Mutant Boss keep his CCW when he takes another weapon. It's silly he has to give it up. He has two arms (maybe more!).
4. Uprades - Halve their costs. +6 points for Cavalry movement? What? +3 for a 4+ armour save?

At the end of the day they're always going to be compared to Ork Boyz, and when an Ork Boy is 6 points, has 4 attacks on the charge, has Furious Charge, is essentially Fearless and gains the benefit of the WAAAAGH, then there's simply no way that a Mutant can cost equal to that (let alone more than that).

The LatD suffer just like the Chaos Codex suffers - with no wargear list, the only options being weapon choices, static units with no choice and generic-fething-daemons everything becomes completely blandified. It amazes me that since Rogue Trader 'Daemonic Gifts' and the 'Gifts of the Gods' have been a core part of the Chaos Codex... until now where they no longer exist. They robbed Chaos of its soul, and sadly this means that LatD loses a lot of itself as well. Again, not your fault, that's all down to Jervis and his need to turn all of 40K to beige.

Yeah this is seperate, my thread is still pretty much notional.

I'll take a look at this though.

I think that the aspiring chaos space marines entry should be 1-3, so you could have enough of them to actually have an effect on the working of the force. Otherwise, I agree that lots of stuff needs to be cheaper. However, I do applaud you for making the effort. I have droves of mutants and plague zombies that have not seen battle in years.

OK, a couple of thoughts

* References to Legion rules and sentries are 4th edition, they should just go.

*I n my proposed list after a lot of thought I decided to cut CSMs entirely. While CSMs fighting along side the cult makes sense, so does letting loyalist marines fight with the IG. But they can't, so I'd cut them out. Leave the special marine champs but no CSM allies.

* Include a human psyker and human heretic leader from the Witch Hunter opposition list.

* Traitors need to go down in points or up to BS4.

* Zombies are strangely written, are all Nurgle Mutants zombies or only some? I'd make them their own unit.

That's the way GW wrote it. And it was a choice. Bloated Mutants were just Sv4+, but you could make Bloated Mutants into Plague Zombies. They gained Fearless plus S&P but couldn't take any options.

It would seem that the major balance issue with the new LatD is Lash of Submission being allowed to be taken along with Guard ordinance. An allied daemon prince taken along with a sorcerer, a Basilisk, and two Leman Russes sounds like a recipe for disaster (even if it does require your opponent's permission to use).

Here's what I would do: first, drop the HQ Chaos Marine ally. The Lost and the Damned don't really need Daemon Princes, god knows the marines have enough of them as it is. The Greater Daemon should be sufficient for their huge daemon need anyways.

Second, make a profile for the Arch-Heretic, but make him a human. Then, allow him to be upgraded to a chaos marine profile. Give him options for some psychic powers that aren't broken, but don't suck, and allow him to take those options whether he's a space marine or not. If you do this right, you can have a great template made; he could be an Alpha Legion operative, an apostate cardinal, an outcast sorcerer, a bloodthirsty warlord, a mutant rabble-rouser, or whatever else you want your army to be led by.

Apiring Champions are a big part of LatD. Removing them or any allies doesn't make any sense.

If there's a problem with Lash, don't allow Lash. Why futz with a list that works just because there's a power that doesn't? Don't jump off a bridge to avoid a pot-hole.

I didn't say remove Aspiring Champions, just the Chaos codex HQs. Aspiring Champions of Slaanesh can't cast powers, Aspiring Champions of Tzeentch would just need a quick rewrite to switch out the CSM codex powers for the LatD powers.

There's more reasons to change it than just Lash. As Kid_Kyoto said, there should be option for a mortal HQ choice, such as a fallen priest or rogue psyker or traitor general. Also, the powers in the CSM codex frankly suck. Not only is Lash overpowered, all the other powers are underpowered, on a sorcerer at least. (Not to mention, most just aren't very awe-inspiring. Oh, you shoot bolts of magic at people. So you have a magic gun, instead of everyone else's real gun. Okay. Now, the rogue psyker had some cool powers.)

Why do the LatD need to able to take a daemon prince? Isn't it enough that you can take two in a chaos marine army, and three in a daemon army? Daemons are supposed to be harder for the LatD to have access to, that's the reason for them being elites. Why are ascended warriors of the legions commanding rabble, when Aspiring Champions are powerful enough to count as HQs?

Howdy all.

Thanks Kid K for your feedback. Much of what you said had been eccoed by the peoples on my end also. SO the Traitors got cheaper, the zombies became their own entry based off the zombie rules from the apoc datasheet and we now have a Human HQ.

I was trying to come up with a good Guard version of a HQ for the list but just kept falling short. I dont have a copy of the witch hunters rules so didnt have that base to work from. The simplest way i thought, was to add in the Lord Commissar and Primaris Psyker options into the Arch Heratic entry. This gives you a Rogue Psyker and a Crazed general that can run around executing his generals when they fail. It might be worth it for the Psyker to drop his powers in favor for the ones in the Witch hunter rules (if i can locate a copy). But for now the Primaris Psykers is a good slot in imo.

First thing I'll say about the new one:

Make Plague Zombies T4 again. T2 means they can't take their FNP vs Bolters, which means they virtually never get to save against everything. They're immune to half of the Lasgun hits that wound them... yeah that's worth 5 points a model... not. It makes them useless. Plague Zombies in LatD worked because they were Fearless blobs of T4 Sv4+ Troops.

T3(4), Sv4+/4+(FNP). Fearless. 4 points a piece.

Thanks for the kind words, I'll give it a look when I get a chance.

It might be a good idea to either post updates as a reply or even a new thread. Now I have to scroll up to see the updates, then hunt through irrelevent relies to figure out where the new content kicks in.

Ah fair call Kid Kyoto. Ill do that in the future Looking forward to seeing what you think.

**EDIT** Figured I would post the most recent update here as well as keep it in the first post. As like KK said. It helps the discussion flow better

[Version 1.02
Changes from Version 1.0

- Cult leader rule made more simple
- Undivided champion now has infiltrate
- Traitors are now cheaper (weapons included)
- Mutants "Blessings of the Gods" have been made cheaper
- mutants Firearms and Las pistols now both free
- Krak grenades knocked down to 1 point
- Plague zombie rules now use the USR's
- Gibbering Hordes are cheaper.

Changes from Version 1.01

- Irrelevant Army Special rules removed
- Icons and Daemon summoning special rules fixed up
- Unique weapons descriptions added
- Arch Heretic rule now has added option for A Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker.
- Plague Zombies now have their own entry based on the Apoc Datafax
- Big mutants, Scaly upgrade has been removed and replaced with the option to take a Chaos Icon.
- Big mutants now have the Bulky rule similar along the lines of the Ogryn special rule.
- Chaos Spawn fast attack option from codex chaos space marines now available
- Chaos Abomination has been changed from the original version from original lost and the damned. It is now replaced with a version almost identical to the Giant chaos Spawn from Imperial armour Apocalypse.


Please let me know what you think.

The sentiment seems to be the same all over about the Zombies. Im thinking what may need to be done about the Zombies is maybe just give them back their 4+ (or maybe just a 5+) save at an increased cost OR up their toughness to 3 for an increased cost. That way they dont get riped to bits by shooting and are only a real problem for S3 enemies when it comes to combat. The image that im seeing is that guard, orks (when they dont assult) tau and eldar would have quite a bit of trouble dealing with them once they are in combat, Where as all of the S4 armies should be able to rip them limb from limb without issue.