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How do you play it: Assaulting a unit partially in cover (to lazy to actually make it a poll)

Your five man unit wants to assault the enemy five man unit. The closest model to your unit is outside the area difficult terrain, but the other four are in area difficult terrain.

How do you play it?

1. The only check for difficult is if closest to closest goes through difficult. Models past that can ignore terrain, or choose to be in support range instead of base to base rather than enter difficult, even if unoccupied models are in there.

2. Check for difficult for closest to closest, and for any model that would have to enter difficult to get in base to base with an unoccupied enemy model. This means if you have more models assaulting than there are targets outside cover, you must roll to attempt to engage models in difficult.

3. If the declared target has any models in difficult, you must roll difficult to assault, even if there are enough unoccupied models outside the difficult for your attacking force to each be in base to base with an unoccupied model without entering the terrain.

4. Something else entirely, give details.

First consider the method for moving into assault detaled on page 34. It says to roll for difficult terrain as normal. This states:

If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain.

As you can see, if you want any of your models to enter difficult terrain, you must declare it or not move in.

If any assaulting models move through difficult terrain, the fight at I1

Page 36 BRB wrote:If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving/

That leads me to believe that if any model would have to move into difficult terrain during the assault, even if the first model is clear, you roll for the test. If there are any models in assault range in Difficult Terrain, you cannot assault the unit unless you declare you are entering the terrain, and thus must take the test

3: read the relevant parts on page 36 of the BRB, Assaulting through cover. If any model in the assaulting unit triggers a test all have to abide by it. And no, you can't get past page 34 and the demand that you engage as many enemies as possible.

Spetulhu wrote:3: read the relevant parts on page 36 of the BRB, Assaulting through cover. If any model in the assaulting unit triggers a test all have to abide by it. And no, you can't get past page 34 and the demand that you engage as many enemies as possible.

How is this different than choice 2?

It's different because you must check before the first model moves, even if it is clear. In order to assault a Unit with even 1 model in Difficult Terrain, you must declare you are entering that terrain to assault them, As per Page 14. Once you declare that, you must make the test, and may move up to what the dice say, and you still strike at I1.

That's choice 2. I may not have worded it clearly enough.

edit: Your number 2 seemed to suggest you roll per model. No worries then.

Kaaihn wrote:That's choice 2. I may not have worded it clearly enough.

My apologies. Now go clear up the wording you!

I heard that you must maximize models or attempt to. So if there are models in the unit that at in cover that are within charge range then you roll the dice. If the ones that are not in cover are close enough then you still assault. However if the models that are in cover are out of range then you do not need to take the since you would not be able to charge them anyways. This is how is was explained to me by a Games day Referee.

Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

I think 2 might be legal, 1 is definitely not supported by the rules, but I play in a different fashion.

As Gwar! said, if you want to enter difficult terrain, you have to declare it, so the way I see it, if the closest model is outside of difficult terrain, you don't declare that you are entering the terrain, but you do declare an assault.

Then you move the closest model to the closest model.

Then, you move as many other models into base to base as possible, but without entering the difficult terrain, as you did not declare you were entering difficult terrain for your assault move.

Then reaction moves are made.

That's how I've been playing it, but if someone will show me why it's wrong I'll happily change how I play

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Why would you need to test if you can satisfy every assault requirement without stepping in to the difficult? If a five man squad assaults a ten man that has the two rear models in terrain, the attacking five would go closest to closet without going through difficult. Then the remaining four attackers would each go to an unoccupied enemy, of which there are four outside terrain. No attacker goes into terrain in this example, why would they test?

Kaaihn wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:Edited, take a look. That clear enough?

That's also wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't move through the Terrain, the fact that there is one member of the Target unit in difficult terrain, means you have to test, even if you don't move through it.

Why would you need to test if you can satisfy every assault requirement without stepping in to the difficult? If a five man squad assaults a ten man that has the two rear models in terrain, the attacking five would go closest to closet without going through difficult. Then the remaining four attackers would each go to an unoccupied enemy, of which there are four outside terrain. No attacker goes into terrain in this example, why would they test?

Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

Aaaah, I see where you are coming from. You are indeed told to move into close combat with the unit you have declared against. To be able to move into contact with a unit partially in difficult, you would have to enter the difficult. Since it tells you that you must move following the same rules as the movement phase with the 1" exception, you would have to declare you are entering difficult, and roll before you move at all.

Is that what you are saying?

Kaaihn wrote:Aaaah, I see where you are coming from. You are indeed told to move into close combat with the unit you have declared against. To be able to move into contact with a unit partially in difficult, you would have to enter the difficult. Since it tells you that you must move following the same rules as the movement phase with the 1" exception, you would have to declare you are entering difficult, and roll before you move at all.

Is that what you are saying?

Yup. Which means that if you roll badly, the assault could well fail.

Edited. That is number three now, since number one and number two are the common ways I see. I'm curious which method others outside my usual store use.

I would like to suggest another alternative. If there is a single target assault model outside of difficult terrain within assault range of the closest model of the assaulting unit, you DO NOT roll any difficult terrain test at all, even if there are other models of the target unit in difficult terrain. Please read paragraph 3 of page 34 BRB very carefully and you will come to the same conclusion.

slainex wrote:I would like to suggest another alternative. If there is a single target assault model outside of difficult terrain within assault range of the closest model of the assaulting unit, you DO NOT roll any difficult terrain test at all, even if there are other models of the target unit in difficult terrain. Please read paragraph 3 of page 34 BRB very carefully and you will come to the same conclusion.

How does that differ from option one?

And taking into account paragraph 2 on page 34 also, as well as the entire section of Assaulting Through Cover on 36, I do not come to your conclusion. In this thread I'm more interested in hearing what people do though, rather than a debate on what is right.

Gwar! wrote:Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

But that's not what the rules say? They say if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Spetulhu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

But that's not what the rules say? They say if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Page 14 wrote:If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain.

33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault. If you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Page 34 wrote:All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models.

Page 33 wrote:Assault Phase Summery:
Move assaulting units
• Pick a unit.
• Declare which enemy unit it is going to assault.

It doesn't get much clearer. In order to assault a unit that is even partially in Difficult Terrain, you must declare beforehand that you are going to enter the terrain, as you are not allowed to pre-measure to see if any models might move through it. Because you declared you are moving into the terrain, you take the Terrain test before moving any models, and all models in that unit are limited to the movement rolled and will suffer the penalties incurred.

I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

solkan wrote:I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Tell me if I am summarizing your method correctly.

Roll difficult if closest to closest takes you through difficult. If all assaulting models can get to an unengaged model without going through difficult, no test is taken. If all enemy models outside difficult are taken and you still have unengaged assaulting models, you would measure to see if you are within 6" of the unoccupied enemy models in terrain. If they are within 6", you make a difficult check. If they are not, you don't make a check, and move your remaining unoccupied assaulters into base to base with already occupied enemy models outside difficult, or into support range.

Is that accurate to how you do it?

Because you don't assault individual models, you assault Units. Part of Unit is in Difficult terrain, ergo you must declare you are entering the terrain to assault that unit.

You are making a leap here that is not supported in the rules. You are missing a premise to back up your conclusion.

The rules for this are gacked up because they allow you to get half way through your assault move before realizing you have to make a DT test. I think willydstyles way of doing it works best but be aware the BGB doesn't fully support it.

You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

with that said , you should be nominated for the most helpful GW person.

LunaHound wrote:
You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

Kaaihn wrote:

solkan wrote:I have to vote for option 4, because the other options are short of the mark.

If there are two assaulting models versus a unit with two outside of difficult terrain and three inside difficult terrain, and the models outside of terrain are going to be the closest models, no difficult terrain test should be taken. But even if you're assaulting with five models, if those five models couldn't reach the the three models in cover for some reason--the two models outside of cover are 5.5" away, the models inside cover are 7.5" away--then they wouldn't have to make a difficult terrain test.

I think this is one of those situations where one would may have to stop and measure the movements of several models in order to determine if a rule applies. That rule being determining whether or not you would have to go into difficult terrain according to the assault rules.

Edit: Just to clarify, the assault rules require the assaulting player to prefer moving into contact with unengaged models, so most of the time that's going to mean that if the assaulted unit has models reachable only through difficult terrain, the assaulting unit is going to have to take a difficult terrain test. But it's not automatic and it's going to require pre-measuring under the "it's okay to premeasure to determine whether a rule or effect applies" AFTER the assault is declared but before the assaulting models are moved.

Tell me if I am summarizing your method correctly.

Roll difficult if closest to closest takes you through difficult. If all assaulting models can get to an unengaged model without going through difficult, no test is taken. If all enemy models outside difficult are taken and you still have unengaged assaulting models, you would measure to see if you are within 6" of the unoccupied enemy models in terrain. If they are within 6", you make a difficult check. If they are not, you don't make a check, and move your remaining unoccupied assaulters into base to base with already occupied enemy models outside difficult, or into support range.

Is that accurate to how you do it?

No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary because the difficult terrain test (if it is necessary) affects all of the assaulting models and you don't do strange things like take difficult terrain tests half way through the assault. Honestly, in almost every case it should be obvious whether or not one of the assaulting models is going to have to enter difficult terrain without resorting to using quarters and blank bases to mark positions.

The ugly, sloppy, messy method is to start moving your assault, realize that one of the assaulting models is going to enter difficult terrain, roll the difficult terrain, and retroactively adjust your assault movements or return to the starting position because the assault failed. The nice way of doing it is to look at the assaulting unit, figure out which model each of the assaulting models is going to engage, and at that point you'll know whether or not a difficult terrain test is necessary, and then take the test.

solkan wrote:No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary

This is highly incorrect. In order to do this, you must pre meausure the distance before you assault, which is explicitly forbidden on page 33:

Page 33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:No, I'm saying that you can determine explicitly before conducting the assault move whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary

This is highly incorrect. In order to do this, you must pre meausure the distance before you assault, which is explicitly forbidden on page 33:

Page 33 wrote:As you cannot measure the distance to the enemy before declaring the assault, if you misjudge the distance and the unit is unable to reach its target. then the unit does not move and that assault is ignored

Well, of course you don't measure the distance BEFORE you declare the assault. You measure the distances AFTER declaring the charge. If there is a question about whether or not the unit will enter difficult terrain, measure the questionable cases to determine whether the difficult terrain test is necessary. Page 33 prohibits measuring before declaring the assault, it doesn't prohibit measuring to determine whether a rule applies. After all assaults are declared, the measurements which I'm describing fall under measuring to determine the rules, because it is entirely deterministic that the closest assaulting model will move its effective movement rate towards the nearest model.

Edit: Edited for clarity in second sentence.

So, what I said was accurate as your method if you take all that into account before moving the first model, but after declaring the charge it looks like.

That sounds like the way I have been playing it myself. Before moving a model, but after declaring the charge, you measure to see if the terrain rules are going to have bearing on the assault. If all attackers could get into base to base without going in, the terrain check wouldn't apply, so you don't make it.

It isn't completely clean though, because you have to eyeball and guess about where there is enough space for models to all fit, guess about space to move past someone that has already moved, etc. But it definitely works better than starting to move models and then rolling for difficult halfway through your assault move, and having to move everything back to where you started if you then roll to low to have assaulted at all!

After noticing from this thread that the assault moves tell you that you must use the standard movement rules though, it is looking to me like this method has been wrong. You declare an assault unit to unit, not unit to half a unit. If you want to assault a unit that has someone in difficult, you can't unless you have the ability to go in to difficult yourself. By being told to use the standard movement rules, that means you have to declare you are moving in to difficult, and roll. Otherwise, you aren't allowed in to the difficult per the normal movement rules, and I don't see anything in the assault rules to give an exception to not use that movement rule.

It does look like it is supposed to be an all or nothing situation to me. The side benefit is, that is perfectly clean, you don't have to count models, envision the order things will move and end up and who will have room to move around who, etc.