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Crusaders are better than regular Landraiders because they hold more assault troops.

Redeemers are better than regular Landraiders because they kill tons of foot troops easier.

Standard Land Raiders dont have enough Firepower to be useful for their points.
................................................

These are all common statements made when comparing the Godhammer Land Raider (named so after its Godhammer pattern Lascannon) or GHLR to its cousins or other heavy support choices.

The people making these statements are using the standard LR incorrectly in my opinion.

Land Raiders in general, while not as resiliant as the 4e Falcon, are the closest thing to it in 5e. They are resiliant, resiliant, resiliant. They also sport tons of firepower and are intimidating in the extreme. We've all heard it before...1 LR is an annoyance, 2 LR is a problem, 3 LR's are a HORROR.

The Standard LR is a venerable design. It's been with us since Rogue Trader. Nowadays, generally consider it last when they think about a Marine or 'Hunter Command Transport....Generally going with one of its flashier cousins, either the Crusader or the Redeemer. This article/thread will go over how to use them effectively and properly using the Space Marine Codex point of view. This isnt an attempt at proving the Standard LR superior in any way to its cousins, or even equal. It's only an attempt to help people to see the actual usefulness and proper usage of the Mighty Land Raider in a 5e game.

TACTICA: LAND RAIDER!

You've just put together your Land Raider that you got for Christmas, you asked for one of the new redeemers, but apparently G-Mom cannot tell the difference. You dont really expect to get much use out of it, but maybe you can proxy it as a redeemer until you've got the money to pick up a "Good" LR by yourself.

...sure does look cool though.
...certainly those lascannons are good for something.
...its still armour 14.
...space marine machine spirit is useful too.
...lets think about this for a second...

If you put assault troops of some sort into your LR expecting them to get into combat, they certainly have a safe haven from enemy firepower, but the LR is inferior in close range firepower to the Crusader or Redeemer.

Well, if the LR is inferior at close ranges, and it's sporting long range weaponry anyway....we'll keep it at longer ranges. However, if we do that what good is the transport capacity? Cannot a Predator be better at this sort of job than the LR itself?

What are you missing?

FIREPOWER

The standard LR's primary weapon system are two twin linked Lascannon with a defensive twin linked Heavy Bolter. Unfortunatly, under the current ruleset, the Heavy bolter cannot be fired "defensively". It still gives the Standard LR some anti-infantry capability however. More on this later.

The two twin linked Lascannons may be considered inferior by some to the 3 lascannons that a predator can carry. While this is arguable, there are some reasons why this may not be true.

The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons. These two lascannons may be targetted at seperate targets via the Machine Spirit for a potential of 2 enemy units shut down or not returning fire for either the next turn or the rest of the game (destroyed). Armour 14 on the Tank makes it much less common to be "stunned" as a result of enemy fire. Also, since the Machine spirit may always "fire one more weapon than is normally allowed" it may fire one lascannon even if the vehicle has been stunned.

The Land Raider makes a more reliable, more resiliant firebase than a predator. However, the potential of the Predator's 3 lascannons is such that you could get three hits, this will always be true. On the move however the Pred is restricted to 1 shot. The Landraider, on the move, is still capable of firing both weapons (at separate targets if needed). Also, if standing still and equipped with a MM within range, well we get the Idea.

Basically, with its firepower, the landraider makes a fine firebase which doesnt need to close with the enemy to be effective. Predators are still useful, and the potential for long range damage is there. However, with machine spirit in tow, the LR makes for a much more reliable firebase with more versatility. Thats where the points went.

TRANSPORT

Inferior to the Crusader. Same as the Redeemer, but the Redeemer is equipped better when you're getting assault troops where they need to be.

Is the Transport capacity a simple waste for this useful "firebase" unit? What good is transport capacity on a model that is supposed to shoot and not maneuver closer to the enemy, especially considering that there are no firepoints on a LR.

The Transport capacity of a landraider is good really for two things. Denying Kill points, and making the LR a scoring unit.

Armour 14 can take an entire game to get past in order to kill the vehicle. This is made even harder with the possibilities of Cover, smoke, or 3+ saves due to facing. If a scoring unit of troopers (even scouts) is inside the vehicle, they are effectively immune from harm until the Land Raider is destroyed. The only troopers in the game that are completely immune to str 7 or below weaponry are mounted in LR's. No other scoring unit can claim that.

Also, if on the last turn of the game, you are able to park a scoring LR on an objective after moving 12" and smoking, you will be in very good shape. If your opponent cannot destroy your LR during the shooting phase, he will have a very hard time getting you off of the objective.

Also, in missions with multiple objectives placed by the players. If you are able to place a single objective exactly 12" away from another, it is possible for a single marine, ONE marine, mounted in a LR to claim both objectives. If a Land raider parks diagonally between these two objectives, it will be within 3" of both. This is how you can get a single marine to claim two objectives 12" apart.

You may think that these tactics can be utilised by Crusaders and Redeemers, but, while they can indeed do it, it doesnt suit their purpose. Crusaders and redeemers, with their close range firepower, are better suited to carry units that wish to get stuck in quick and make their lightning claws and force weapons felt. There isnt much use in making a crusader simply "scoring" with its huge transport capacity. Also, due to the ranges at which LR's are effective within, the standard LR makes a safer "haven" for smallish units that simply wish to stay alive in order to conserve a kill point.

ARMOUR

Crusader= AV 14
Redeemer= AV 14
Standard Land Raider= AV 14

The standard LR is more resilant than either the Crusader OR the Redeemer. This section will show you why.

In order to be effective, the Crusader and Redeemer must get close. In order to be effective, the standard Land Raider must be within 48".

Range 48"

Standard LR is able to engage the enemy with primary weapon systems
Crusader and Redeemer are unable to engage the enemy
Weapons within range able to harm the tanks are-Ordinance, Railguns, Lascannon, Krak Missle

Range 36"

Standard LR is able to engage enemy with primary and secondary weapon systems
Crusader and Redeemer are unable to engage the enemy
New weapons in range able to harm tanks- Bright/Dark Lances

Range 24"

Standard LR's MM comes into range if so equipped
Crusader and Redeemer come into range with Assault cannon, hurricane bolters, MM
New weapons in range able to harm tanks- MM's, Extreme assault range, optimal range for fast mounted MM's (bikes/Speeders)

Range 18"

New threats in range-Optimal range for Mobile MM's, bike mounted Meltas, fast assault

Range 12"

Rapid fire hurricane bolters, optimal MM range
New threats in range- Optimal MM's, infantry mounted Meltas (optimal range if they move), charge range, blasters

Range <12"

Flame cannons now in range
New threats- ALL of the above, inferno pistols
..............................

As you can see, as an armour 14 tank gets closer, there are more and more things that you will find in an enemy army that will threaten or even "laugh" at its tough hide. Melta weaponry is extremly common in the 5e game of mechanised armies and vehicles with difficult damage tables. You have to get close to use it though. When you use the Crusader and the Redeemer to the best of their abilities, you are, in effect, HELPING the enemy destroy your tank.

The standard LR has no reason to advance past 48" away. It stands there with its two twin lascannons firing away, as lacannon and rail gun fire PRAYS to get past its tough hide. All other weapons are out of range and pose no threat. Hence, the Standard Land Raider IS, in effect, MORE resiliant than its two cousins.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

You've played with the Land Raider that G-Mom (grandma) gave you for Christmas 8 times now and its only been destroyed once. (by a drop-podding melta) Its been immobile, weapons destroyed, but it's hardly ever died. It carries a five man tactical squad for very little points and that squad typically takes objectives within your deployment or just a little bit outside. Once you managed to take two objectives that were real close to each other with your "scoring" LR.

You hug the table corners on your side blasting away at rhino's loaded with melta sporting troopers, frequently immobilising them making the troopers walk while vulnerable to the rest of your army. Sometimes you even manage a cover save. The rest of your army inadvertantly play's "linebacker" to your Landraiders "quarterback" and its tough for melta weapons to get into range.

Since you hug the table corners on your side, sometimes even enemy lascannons wind up being out of range of your tank. You typically advance 6" if there are no threatening targets within range and fire both lascannons. Sometimes the vehicle table frustrates you, but you've still got str9 and frequently the enemy cannot return fire due to a "stunned" result. Lance weaponry is troublesome due to raiders and Waveserpents being so darned fast but at least you generally get the first shot off..and their tanks are weaker in resiliancy than yours. You've never been hit with a MM because the Attack bikers that your friend uses are a priority target before they get close.

Drop Pods are annoying but you read a thread on Dakka about Castling, and you dont really worry about dropping Melta's anymore.

All in all, you're pretty glad that G-Mom screwed up your X-mas gift. In fact, you're begining to think that your army might really benefit from a second land raider. You're thinking about making your 5 man unit a 10 man unit and combat squadding them in objective missions and leaving them together in kill point missions. You're thinking about what free weapons to give them but more importantlyl, you're eagerly waiting until next week when your store gets another land raider in.

In the meantime, you're still trying to convince your friends why basic LR's just "work". They dont get it though. Let them keep bringing their Crusaders/Redeemers...you'll keep on Immobilising them in their backfield.

Congratulations, you've just figured out how to use Standard Land Raiders!

Lol, an excellent showing of why I've never taken anything but a standard LR in my armies. Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

Well done Deadshane, well done. Maybe I won't have to roll my eyes as much anymore when I suggest a list w/2-3 standard LR's and someone tells me to switch them to crusaders/redeemers

I appreciate the effort but feel that the salient points are outdated by about 12 months.

The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

If we're going to treat the Godhammer fundamentally as a Gunline bunker, then the question that has to be answered is "does this unit have enough impact to be the lynchpin of my firebase?"

I think most IG players will tell you 'no'. Two TL lascannons at 125 points a pop, adequate in 4th, are not going to do much against mech-anything in 5th, not when every other army has similar firepower for cheaper, including Marines (MM Speeders). Although "making its points back" is not as important in 5th ed, it's an uphill battle if your Godhammer has to fire 3-4 shots in order to neutralize one 55 point Chimera.

Likewise, dedicating significant point values of other units to playing Linebacker to an overcosted lynchpin simply furthers your opponent's advantage.

The second option then is as a free-safety, independently driving around in your backfield plinking anything that your main offensive can't be bothered to deal with. Is the Godhammer effective on its own? Again no, a lack of firepower and vulnerability to melta strikes via turboing/outflanking/deep striking units makes it a 250 point target dummy.

Can your army be tailored to make Godhammers effective? Sure, but you're probably much better off with 3 MM/HF speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

That's because GKs need the long range fire support. Marines, on the other hand, really don't.

I use a lot of the basic land raiders, come to think of it, I do not own any of the others.

I play mostly Grey Knights and Space Wolves, so the anti-tank is welcome, and I love the flexibility of dropping out some tough assault units if I have to, or if someone gets to close.

I notice how everyone is getting Melta crazy these days, and I love out-ranging them with lascannons. Heck, even MM land speeders only have a threat radius on the first turn of 12" move+24" range, and even then you are not likely do anything until you get within 12". I like my odds.

sourclams wrote:I appreciate the effort but feel that the salient points are outdated by about 12 months.

The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

If we're going to treat the Godhammer fundamentally as a Gunline bunker, then the question that has to be answered is "does this unit have enough impact to be the lynchpin of my firebase?"

I think most IG players will tell you 'no'. Two TL lascannons at 125 points a pop, adequate in 4th, are not going to do much against mech-anything in 5th, not when every other army has similar firepower for cheaper, including Marines (MM Speeders). Although "making its points back" is not as important in 5th ed, it's an uphill battle if your Godhammer has to fire 3-4 shots in order to neutralize one 55 point Chimera.

Likewise, dedicating significant point values of other units to playing Linebacker to an overcosted lynchpin simply furthers your opponent's advantage.

The second option then is as a free-safety, independently driving around in your backfield plinking anything that your main offensive can't be bothered to deal with. Is the Godhammer effective on its own? Again no, a lack of firepower and vulnerability to melta strikes via turboing/outflanking/deep striking units makes it a 250 point target dummy.

Can your army be tailored to make Godhammers effective? Sure, but you're probably much better off with 3 MM/HF speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

That's because GKs need the long range fire support. Marines, on the other hand, really don't.

Possibly, NO land raiders are cost effecient. Especially when a single melta speeder can turn one into slag.

However, my point here wasnt to argue the points effeciency of units. In fact, I dont think that I ever made a point of whether or not they are "points efficient".

My point here was, for people that DO use land raiders, to point out how to properly use the standard pattern one. Thats all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:
The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

And you missed an entire point here.....The Godhammer LR HAS no assault capacity. It has a transport capacity that makes it scoring and aids in kill point denial. Basically, ignore the fact that it has an assault ramp...its gravy if you need it.

Deadshane1 wrote:The Godhammer LR HAS no assault capacity. It has a transport capacity that makes it scoring and aids in kill point denial. Basically, ignore the fact that it has an assault ramp...its gravy if you need it.

This right here... I think of it as a scoring bunker that can respond up to 12" to deal with threats in the backfield. I'm almost tempted to throw a unit of CC Scouts in it, simply to make it scoring as cheaply as possible and can still put out some CC attacks on any units that do try to get within melta range. Also makes a great place to put a Inq/Mystic combo IMO. The size of the LR gives you some extra range to detect deepstrikers and isn't the DH Hood unlimited range?

omg. I love this thread. I had a falling out with my first Land Raider... she kept sploding on me... but I think that was mostly my fault. Now I wish I never let her go. I miss you LR. Now I have a Crusader/Redeemer LR kit waiting for me to put her together... but how could I not see the love that could have been with Land Raider Classic?

Really I love this thread. Even more then my old Land Raider. I'd sleep with this thread.

djphranq wrote:omg. I love this thread. I had a falling out with my first Land Raider... she kept sploding on me... but I think that was mostly my fault. Now I wish I never let her go. I miss you LR. Now I have a Crusader/Redeemer LR kit waiting for me to put her together... but how could I not see the love that could have been with Land Raider Classic?

Really I love this thread. Even more then my old Land Raider. I'd sleep with this thread.

WOW! Thanx!

Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

If I wasn't starting a Tau army I would probably buy the Godhammer pattern Land Raider. Thanks for the tips Deadshane1.

Nice analysis and dead on in my opinion.

Jobz a gud un!

Deadshane1 wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

Okay I'll have to give it another go then, I liked the way it performed last game, and it was pretty much used how you say to use it, other than having Termies start in it, then moving CSM into it after the termies assaulted.

No problem, it was a good article.

I've found if you put a single one in your list, it won't make its points back. If you put 3 in the list it will. Playing as grey knights I've tabled SM and nid players with them. Riding inside are incinerator PAGKs. Lascannons kill tansports/big bugs. Heavy bolters kill spilled transport cargo/genesteelers. If they get close with something that can actually hurt it, PAGKs jump out and flame. Then they assault. (not gene steelers, they don't survive the flame templates or 3 heavy bolter shots.)

I've had a hard time against horde orks. It does lack the volume to kill a true horde list. And unless you bring more than 3, it will have problem with immolator spam sisters. (20+ melta riding in 10+ rhino type hulls)

Nice thread. Needs a little math-hammer.

Predator with TW and sponsons lascannons.
Chance of at least 1 hit 1280/1296
Chance of at least 2 hits 1088/1296
Chance of all 3 hitting 512/1296

Land Raider
Chance of at least 1 hitting 1280/1296
Chance of both hitting 1024/1296

.... So the land raider does nearly as well as the predator but is more likely to be able to fire each turn ...

Great tactica Shane!

G

I just find that the points on a mobile "bunker" can be spent elsewhere and for cheaper.

Oh as for the "predator vs landraider debate". I side on the predator for simple value and points and ability to get cover saves as it is overall a smaller model.

250pts for a gunline base thingy.. hmm.

300pts for a AV14/14/14 scoring vehicle, Yes please!

This concept doesnt really require distractions.. although it could help. If the enemy if forced to come to you from 48" away - rather than deal with a terminator loaded crusader - alot of thier firepower is still compeletely useless against it.

3 LR's & 3 scout squads comes to 900-950. That sorts out troop scoring ability & anti-tank right there & then. Three drop pods with two Ironclads & a sternguard squad with some form of HQ (A libarian) should round it to 1500.

Anyways, good misconception busting Deadshane1!

BrotherStynier wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

Okay I'll have to give it another go then, I liked the way it performed last game, and it was pretty much used how you say to use it, other than having Termies start in it, then moving CSM into it after the termies assaulted.

No problem, it was a good article.

I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

A good friend of mine who is also a good gamer said that every SM/Chaos SM army should include a landraider. I tend to agree with him. I think two is enough at most though.

G

Guard dont have Raiders so they suck.

Wait...

Mad Rabbit wrote:

I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

I see, maybe I should try that out.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

I'm curious as to how you see it that way. The trend towards mech means that lists are featuring more armor-killing weaponry than ever before, and the relative mediocrity of the Godhammer for its point cost means that its performance is going to have to be exceptional in the 2-3 turns before the noose tightens. Lascannons aren't very good at stopping armor, even AV11 or 12. On average it's going to take two full turns of shooting to immobilize or destroy a Rhino or Chimera, especially if the target has cover or smoke.

I like the content on using standard LRs, I was thinking much the same thing, but had little confidence in my conclusions, having not use LRs in play previously.

One thing I do object to, but only emotionally, is the idea that Drop Pod lists are easy to beat with a castle approach. I'm nearing completion of my Imp Fist Drop Pod list, and this is not something I want to hear. But, hey, perhaps I can revitalize them with a Land Raider or two if the pods don't work.

The only other comment I have, is that it seems odd to me that people are treating Chaos Land Raiders somewhat interchangeably with Loyalist LRs.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

Whuh? POTMS strikes me as being the most critical element for win in the whole mix here. Without it, the tank is horribly neutered. Loyalist tank can move and shoot 2 T-L Las. Can split fire. Can shoot while stunned. HUGE increase in firepower.

No?

And, that said, rules check: I'm assuming that when it comes to POTMS, you have to declare all the shooting at once. You can't shoot at one tank, then base your other Lascannon target on the outcome of that shot, right?

Let's assume a player has two straight up landraiders and is playing an IG list with six chimeras. I know there are a lot of other factors but let's keep it simple for now as an exercise. Assume IG gets to go first, deployment is pitched battle and the two landraiders deploy on their table edge with TLOS to the chimeras. The chimeras line up 12" from their board edge and first turn move the full 12" towards the landraiders. Let's also assume the IG player is clever and tucks three chimeras behind the first three. The IG player pops smoke on the front three treads. He is now only 18" inches away. The first landraider fires his first lascannon and hits the middle chimera. 67% chance to glance or penetrate divided by 2 due to the cover save. So let's say 33% chance to glance/penetrate. If he does get past the cover save he have a 50% chance to stop the chimera on the armor table (4+). So basically 15% chance per sponson... If we multiply that by 4 then the odds are 60%. the thing is if the first shot stops a chimera then you can shoot at the other two lead chimeras. Now let's throw in both of the multi-meltas... Assume one hits and stops another chimera. So it's looking like at best you could stop two. The next turn the four remaining chimera move up with the rear chimeras moving up front and popping smoke. You must disembark to shoot and I'll assume the landraiders are screened so none of the meltaguns can get into half range. The landraiders fire again but this time their multi-meltas are more potent being in half range but again I'll assume they just stop two chimeras. So now the IG has two mobile chimeras left and if any guardsmen disembarked they were gunned down or killed in close combat... We all know guard suck in close combat. They still have those two mobile chimeras though and each has 3x meltagun inboard. It's going to be tough to stop them now as they can pull up right beside the two landraiders and disembark shredding AV14 with six meltas.

Now if the SM player is smart and has any other ranged weaponary I think it's going to be hard to pull up on those landraiders. In fact they'll probably never make it against a sound player. That's just the way it is.

G

Mad Rabbit wrote:I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

This is what my roommate does, sometimes two of them. I HATE Demonic Possession. HATE. I also look at the setup as trading PotMS for a Khorne Berserker Cannon, which is also a pain in the tail.

One Godhammer sponson: 88% chance to hit, 50% chance to pen AV12, 50% chance to immobilize/destroy on the pen table, plus a 1/6 chance to immobilize on the glance table.

That's .24 immobilized or destroyed AV12 vehicles per turn per sponson.

2 raiders firing a total of 4 sponsons should immobilize or destroy .96 Chimeras per turn. If the Chims have smoke or cover, you halve your results to .12 results per sponson, or .48 Chimeras stopped per turn of shooting.

In other words, 500 points of gun platform halts ~27.5 pts worth of AV12 transport on their first turn.

On their subsequent turns, they should begin to net roughly 1 Chimera per turn, between them. At this rate, it would take two Land Raiders approximately 10.5 turns to "make their points back". Making their points back isn't really important in 5e, but it gives you an idea exactly how steep the hill is if you're using Godhammers as transport killers.

In the meantime, two Vendettas (which actually net almost 3x the lascannon hits of a single Godhammer for equivalent points) have begun cracking Marines out of their rhinos, opening them up for the rest of the IG player's shooting.

I've been running a Tri-Raider list for a while now with my GK's, and the one Crusader just did not give me what I wanted (i.e., an assault plateform to deliever my GKT's). I finally just swapped the weapons out for third GHLR and ran my GKT's as tactical termies. And guess what happened? My 'Raiders started to survive through to end of each game. I could still load up my GKT's and PAGK's as needed for a 'Raider Rush, but I now had a better option for when I just needed to hang back and fire.

Your Tactica is spot on, Deadshane!

SJ

I like the idea of taking 2 land raiders in a guard army. With an inquisitor lord with fire base config, and a elite inquisitor with 2 mystics for the other. Don't actually deploy the Inq in them, jump some guards men into them turn one. Have the inquisitor with mystics hang out with the plasma doom leman russ. Yes that is a great deal of points. But it is awesome isn't it? The down side is I'm not sure if DH Inq LR act as GK LR. (Power of the machine spirit) I do know that they can get the old smoke. Have no idea how the rest of the list would look. Just the idea of guard with 2 land raiders, and some number of russes just makes me smile.

Before this thread deviates into arguement, let me again clarify something.

This Tactica is not about top tier armies. It's not about how to make a tier 1 Marine list.

Sourclams has made several points, all of which would be true REGARDLESS of what type of Land Raider you're taking. Godhammer (or phobos for the Fluff nutters) Crusader, OR redeemer. Statements that illustrate how the LR is ineffecient at stopping transports are beside the point.

What this thread is about is how to properly use a Standard Land Raider. If taking a LR is your thing, this is the way to do it.

LR's have always struggled with Top Tier lists. Mech guard is indeed possibly up there now with some of the really good builds.

What I would ask Sourclams, is, if you have such a problem with the views forwarded here, what is YOUR opinion on how best to run a Standard Land Raider? If your point is simply..."Don't"...then I fail to understand what your objective is in this thread.

This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.