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Alright, I'm relatively new to the tabletop gaming scene, so feel free to debunk some of my ideas, but in terms of grey knights (my preferred army) they really need to improve some things, simply to make them less dependant on LR spam and IG/SM allies (or some cases where i think it's really the grey knights being allies)

First of all: they need something to counteract the lack of units. maybe give them more attacks? for a PURE grey knights force like the one i use, i get seriously bogged down (especially by orks) by numbers, surprise surprise. The issue i have with this is that the ratio of units gets RIDICULOUS. I've only played a few games, and i know enough to understand that the grey knights are a shooting army, but aren't they supposed to be sufficient for ANY task? maybe they should just give each of them one more attack. PAGKs would get an A:2, Justicars would get A:3, Termies get A:3, etc.

For range, the lack of Anti-tank is understandable, but in some cases, like IG, ridiculous as well. I'm not talking about giving a purgation squad Rocket Launchers and Lascannons, but upping the AP value of their standard ranged weapons.

thoughts?

ya use spacemarine and imperial gurad stuff thats why its there, in fluff they go with imperial guard or space marines so why make an all grey knight army when you can use other armies stuff?

Just off the top of my head...

Update their damn wargear section. That includes giving the units in an assault army grenades.

Make the Grand Master WS 7 or at least 6.

Bring GK Terms in-line with SM terms at 40 points, OR give them 3 attacks.

Make a Justicar optional, and price him at an un-stupid level. 25 points is not an appropriate premium for a regular dude with a power weapon. Let the Justicar roll 2d6 for armor pen against vehicles to compensate for lack of melta.

Price PAGKs appropriately. 25 points is far too much for what you get. 20-21 ppm would be appropriate if they could get bonus attacks from charging, 18-20 is acceptable but still high for how they are set up now. At 25 you'd need to have 2 attacks base, plus bonus from charging. And assault grenades are non-negotiable.

Create more diversity within the codex. A stand-alone codex needs to have a lot more unit options than Big Guys, Little Guys, Little Guys with huge guns, and Land Raiders and Robots.

Bring transport costs in-line with SM/IG.

Update the anti-Daemons rules in a balanced way, and make them more applicable to non-Daemon armies.

They need at least attempt a update of allies as the imperial guard codex has changed.

Give them access to meltas, make them cheaper, and maybe a good FA option like jump packs, or bikes or something and you're good.

meltas would be a good addition, i was thinking more along the lines of making the Daemon hunters more of a pure GK force, and making the GKs more useful. I'm okay with the price if they make them more useful, i mean, the whole reason i got the army was because i have a tendency to be an idiot with a ton of people.


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and yeah, make the grand master seem more like a GRAND MASTER, and less like a chapter master kinda thing.


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sourclams wrote:Just off the top of my head...

Update their damn wargear section. That includes giving the units in an assault army grenades.

Make the Grand Master WS 7 or at least 6.

Bring GK Terms in-line with SM terms at 40 points, OR give them 3 attacks.

Make a Justicar optional, and price him at an un-stupid level. 25 points is not an appropriate premium for a regular dude with a power weapon. Let the Justicar roll 2d6 for armor pen against vehicles to compensate for lack of melta.

Create more diversity within the codex. A stand-alone codex needs to have a lot more unit options than Big Guys, Little Guys, Little Guys with huge guns, and Land Raiders and Robots.

Update the anti-Daemons rules in a balanced way, and make them more applicable to non-Daemon armies.

totally agree i'm still a n00b but this makes sense, and justicars are a real dissapointment.

i beleive that the lack of diversity makes the GKs who they are though, they're the jack of all trades plus 1, and adding to them would just take away from that. my concern was more to making them applicable in a non GK vs Daemon game.

sourclams wrote:Just off the top of my head...

Update their damn wargear section. That includes giving the units in an assault army grenades.

Make the Grand Master WS 7 or at least 6.

Bring GK Terms in-line with SM terms at 40 points, OR give them 3 attacks.

S6 power weapons are good. Theyre better than a single lightning claw. Valuing GK terminators at 40pts makes them better than all the other sort of terminators around. They should be about 42pts each.

Make a Justicar optional, and price him at an un-stupid level. 25 points is not an appropriate premium for a regular dude with a power weapon. Let the Justicar roll 2d6 for armor pen against vehicles to compensate for lack of melta.

Agree that he should be optional but 25pts is a fair price to pay. Every other marine army pays 30pts for a champion with a power weapon.

Price PAGKs appropriately. 25 points is far too much for what you get. 20-21 ppm would be appropriate if they could get bonus attacks from charging, 18-20 is acceptable but still high for how they are set up now. At 25 you'd need to have 2 attacks base, plus bonus from charging. And assault grenades are non-negotiable.

Create more diversity within the codex. A stand-alone codex needs to have a lot more unit options than Big Guys, Little Guys, Little Guys with huge guns, and Land Raiders and Robots.

Bring transport costs in-line with SM/IG.

Update the anti-Daemons rules in a balanced way, and make them more applicable to non-Daemon armies.

Agree with the rest of this.

Psycannon need to be better. They used to be comparable to assault cannon but now they are just bad. They should be AP3 and Assault/Heavy 4.

Regwon wrote:

Make a Justicar optional, and price him at an un-stupid level. 25 points is not an appropriate premium for a regular dude with a power weapon. Let the Justicar roll 2d6 for armor pen against vehicles to compensate for lack of melta.

Agree that he should be optional but 25pts is a fair price to pay. Every other marine army pays 30pts for a champion with a power weapon.

25 points is fair, a 25 point premium on top of the 25 points is not. Remember, Justicars are 50 points for one regular dude with a power weapon and an extra attack.

I think Grey Knights, if you keep them 25 points, should definitely get their special rules re-tooled so that they WORK again.

Things like: Daemons aren't "Daemons", and maybe lower The Shrouding('s range) just a little bit? I have yet to have it mean anything, and I've played GK for going on two years now.

Rites of Exorcism and anything else that affects Instability tests should be redone.

I do concur on Psycannons being AP 3. But in my mind, that's really all they need. Str 6 AP 3 means non-TEQ get stomped.

I'm cool with Justicar not being optional (since sergeants are quickly becoming non-optional, to my untrained eye) but even his price out. ...Although, irritatingly, he appears to follow the formula correctly. (An SM sergeant with PW is 25 points more than a standard SM.)

I'd like a little life just breathed into them.

I was more concerned with how the vehicle takeover will affect them. mechanised armies will CRUSH a pure force these days, unless they have LR spam. I hate LR spam.

Giving them the ability to replace their wrist mounted storm bolters with a (wrist mounted?) melta gun would make them a much more valid assault unit as well as a tank-buster of sorts.

My whole theory on them is they're supposed to be good at everything, so why don't they give them more options? I think the lack of heavy weapons makes sense, but there should be more lowered-power higher manuverability versions of some of the weapons out there (MEEELLLTAAASSSS!!! we need 'em.)

Points drop and shrouding to 2D6x3. Venerable Dreadnaught options. Rhino's as transport would be nice.

Lemartes wrote:Points drop and shrouding to 2D6x3. Venerable Dreadnaught options. Rhino's as transport would be nice.

you can use rhinos.

grey knights cant buy rhinos as of their current codex.

Once I finish 2500 points of Eldar, i'm starting a Grey Knight Army.

if they don't have a new codex by then, I may just run them as vanilla marines. Any ideas for that?

sourclams wrote:
25 points is fair, a 25 point premium on top of the 25 points is not. Remember, Justicars are 50 points for one regular dude with a power weapon and an extra attack.

At least its s6.

Wrist mounted melta would be nice to take as wargear for justicars, etc. I don't really have a problem with LR spam, since I love LRs But really, since all GK weapons are S6, and anything without a WS gets struck against rear armor in 5th ed, what can't a GK with his NFW hurt besides a LR? Heck a GK squad can glance a Baneblade even on 6s. I think some more ranged AV would be better, although I don't really know how that would be implemented.

Special rules need to be re-worked since instability tests, etc, are gone from the game now. Also it would be nice if the special rules/wargear were more applicable to a wider range of armies rather than just daemons. 2d6x3 shrouding would be amazing.

I believe in the next imperial armor update GK can take a GK razorback with a twin-linked psycannon, that and the GK LR Redeemer (crossing fingers for incinerator flamestorm cannons?). Personally I think Psycannons are better than the :cough: Forces of the Imperium Assault Cannon (24" heavy 3, no rending, and yes it is different in the back of the BRB), although not better than a regular assault cannon in some situations (as long as you're using the space marine variant). 36" range s6 made me back a lot of points last game after 2 of my LRs got immobilized (IA lets you take that instead of heavy bolter for +10pts).

GKGM should be able to stand up to a daemonzilla without a ton of tooled out/only useful against daemons wargear, at least that would be nice. I mean, fluffwise this is how these guys got to be a GKGM right?

I don't mind the terms being 46pts, I mean they do get a 1h s6 power weapon, with 3(i think) attacks.

I don't really want them to change too much, I like GK how they are, maybe some tooling with wargear/points/special rules would be all they need. Also, maybe some more AV options... other than Godhammer LRs.

I think one of the biggest problems with them is a lack of wounds. They are so expensive, but can die just as easily. Give the Terminators 2 Wounds and Feel No Pain, and that would justify the points cost.

Give standard GK Feel No Pain and I can live with their cost as well.

Also, take away Fearless and give them ATSKNF instead.

Mattlov wrote:I think one of the biggest problems with them is a lack of wounds. They are so expensive, but can die just as easily. Give the Terminators 2 Wounds and Feel No Pain, and that would justify the points cost.

Give standard GK Feel No Pain and I can live with their cost as well.

Also, take away Fearless and give them ATSKNF instead.

Aren't regular terminators something like 40 pts? WS5+S6 weapon that strikes at initiative, and the standard weapons that come on a regular term, worth the extra 6? I could be wrong on the base cost of a regular term though, don't own an SM codex. I'd maybe go with just FNP instead of 2 wounds.

Is a regular tac marine like 14pts? I can see a point drop in standard GKs and Justicars (lol 50pts), the storm bolter isn't worth 11pts apiece... I wouldn't think. Maybe 20pts for a standard guy, 35-40 maybe for justicar? Definitely need ATSKNF with the change to fearless/cc resolution.

Edit: was looking at the blood angels codex online for some point values, but a regular tac squad, 4 tacs 1 sarge = 115pts. If you add 5 more tacs, its 190. So each would be 19pts at 10, 23pts at 5, but I think they also get a free heavy weapon... well not really, they get a few choices but still have to pay for others.

Since DH they have just changed how squads are put together, it used to be price-per-model, now they just have squad prices.

Terminators for BA are 200pts for 5 models, 4 terms 1 sarge. So they are 40 points-per-model... our regular terms don't seem too bad compared to that, but 61pt BC seems a bit steep.

First thing is first: Grey Knights special rules

Aegis - Keep as written
The Shrouding - Should just give the Stealth USR
Deep Strike Specialists - All units of Grey Knights in Power Armor or Terminator Armor may entire by Deep Strike regardless of the scenario.
Improved Teleportation - When a Grey Knights unit enters play via Deep Strike you may opt to either re-roll the Scatter Dice result. If you do not choose to do so you may move each model in the unit up to 2 inches after they arrive.
True Grit - Keep as written
Fearless - Replace with Stubborn USR
Drop all the Daemonic Infestation / Instability rules entirely.

Give all Grey Knight Hero and Terminator Squads the option to take a Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader, or Land Raider Redeemer as a Squad Upgrade Transport. Grey Knight HQ choices have the option of taking the Land Raider Prometheus.

Give Power Armor Grey Knight Squads Frag Grenades as well as the following Special Weapon upgrade options:

Up to 2 Grey Knights may replace their Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolters with the following:
- Melta Gun for 5pts
- Incinerator for 10pts
- Psycannon for 15pts

A Grey Knights Squad should cost 125 points and come with 1 Justicar and 4 Knights, with the option to add up to 5 additional Knights for 22 points per model.

Grey Knights Terminator Squads should cost roughly 220 points for Hero + 4 Terminators, with options to add up to 5 additional Terminators at the cost of 41 points per model.

Drop the Psychic Hood range from Infinity to 24" like the Space Marine Librarian's hood. Give the Nemesis Force weapon the additional rule that when used as a Force Weapon (Grand Master) on a successful Psychic Test he may choose to inflict either Instant Death OR 1 additional wound.

- Marty Lund

I can get behind all of that, although I'm not sure about the USRs off the top of my head.

Does stealth have a similar effect to the shrouding? Is it like 2d6x3 to see if you can spot the unit or something?

The transport options are a must with the advent of huge mech lists of 5ed.

I don't know, I kind of like LR being the only transport (tank) avalaible to the GK. They could use Iron Clad Dreadnaughts however, as well as many of the variant LRs that came from Apoc. Such as the Demolisher-cannon equiped Siege LR & the Whirl Wind equipped support LR.

I'd also consider just giving them "Teleport Assault" which just replicates Drop Pod assault rules.

It wouldn't hurt for the 'devistator equivilents' to be able to take the full Heavy Weapon range, perferably at a lowered price, making them a viable Heavy Support option.

I personaly thought shrouding was fine as is, but Stealth could work (+1 cover save, fyi)

In that case I'd think shrouding would be better than the stealth USR, although it would be nice if it was 2d6x3 instead of 3d6x3. Isn't night fighting 2d6x3?

Are the rules for Drop Pod assault in the BRB, or would it be somewhere else so I can see what you mean?

I also love LRs, but they need to be available as transport upgrades to GK squads... since for some reason they are not. They probably would be if the codex wasn't so old. Maybe if we are really lucky the new FW update will toss some update GK rules our way.

The point is it's suposed to be not-quite nightfight. 3d6x3 averages out at 30" which is enough to keep heavy weapons off them, but still make them targetable. 2d6x3 averages at 21", which 1) starts to edge in to rifle ranges and 2) more importantly is shorter then their standard weapon(s). Full nightfight would nesessitate a points increase I think, as it would make it all but impossable to engage them at range.

Drop Pod Assalt is in the Marine codex. It's something to the effect of 'never misshap'.

Perhaps if given a maximum, LR could be dedicated transports (like max 1 termy & 2 PAGK's) Or make PAGKs w/ LR Fast attack.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Or make PAGKs w/ LR Fast attack.

That I could definitely get behind.

I do think that some of the old rules are just unnecessary dice-throwing and overly complicated. The Shrouding rules were just silly - far too random and far too expensive. Either give them the extra cover save ala Stealth to fit more towards the 5E model of play (almost everyone has 5+ or 4+ cover anyway at longer ranges) or just make a flat rule that models outside of 30 or 36 inches are denied Line of Sight to Grey Knights units.

You could also combine the Stealth option with a modification of their Leadership functionality. Give them Stubborn and the rule effect that they automatically return to good order at the end of any game phase. That way they can Go To Ground and reform to good order at the end of shooting, basically ignore Pinning, and automatically reform at the end of any Assault Phase the were forced to Fall Back in. Getting an automatic 5+ Cover Save during the shooting phase even when you are out in the open seems a fair exchange for the old 3x3d6 inches spotting nonsense.

So Shrouding --> The Shrouding: Grey Knights in Terminator and Power Armor gain the Stealth USR.
Fearless ---> The Emperor Protects: At the end of each phase of the game any Grey Knights units that are Pinned or Falling Back cease to do so and immediate return to good order.

- Marty Lund

Yea, I suppose 2d6x3 might be a little over the top. 3d6x3 is probably fine, my gaming group never targets me from far away anyhow... usually they are too busy sniping at my land raiders.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Give them access to meltas, make them cheaper, and maybe a good FA option like jump packs, or bikes or something and you're good.

Respectfully, I disagree on points.

Lets follow the fluff, but make them powerful in their fluff:
They are extremely rare but the most powerful of the Imperium MEQs-with geneseed from the emperor and the finest tech. They are a hammer blow designed to stay in the fight until they can defeat a target. Make them the strongest marines out there, the closest thing out there to "movie marines," but make them pay for it.

*Keep their point costs to make them rare. As a balance raise their WS and BS by 1 each across the board. I’d proffer raise their T as well but that might be too much.

*Agreed modernize their weapon/equipment stats to the marine codex (A cannons as per Marine codex stats etc.). Offensive and defensive grenades for all GK’s.

*Give their tac squads some similar options to xenos hunters with Assault H bolters. Inversely make their normal tac squads the same as sternguard. A true grit option would also be effective. Failing that meltas and other marine special weapons (and psycannon).

*Give them the full range of Landraiders, predators, rhinos, and razorbacks (ie all tracked vehicles) at standard marine cost. Mayhaps give the vehicle some sort of cover save against psyker/spell attacks and have an effect on demons.

*Terminators. I really foresee the terminators as the core of this force. I am envisioning obliteresque levels of killy. No assault cannon (but psycannons, heavy flamers, and Krak missiles ok). Give them T5; or FNP; or 2 wounds to represent their toughness. Give them additional psychic powers commensurate with raw killy. All terminators may elect to drop in the same turn.

My $.02

Personaly, I don't see them using Rhino-chassis tanks, or Sternguard like special ammunition (other then Psycannon bolts). Partly because it doesn't seem to fit their style, and partly because it keeps them destinct from Deathwatch (Xeno-hunter veterans).

You are right though, that Grey Knights really are an opertunity to go crazy with rules. I'd love to see them down to 5-man Power Armor groups, and 1-3 man terminator teams.

Ageis Inv. save, Artificer armor, FNP Terminators, two wounds for everyone, power weapons for everyone, Phase-blades for Brother-capitans, it's easy to go crazy with them.

Yea, I would really love if they were the super-elite of super-elite with some crazy rules. Obviously they would be massively expensive and not a force on their own, but a epic inducted unit for crazy killy.

i'd give them all an extra attack right off, give the Aegis an invulnerable save, like 5+ or something like that, and everyone 2 wounds. otherwise it's fine to me.


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i'd say give them a squad that's a little more assault oriented. Give them wrist-mounted meltas, and the regular NFWs.

sourclamsBring wrote: GK Terms in-line with SM terms at 40 points, OR give them 3 attacks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GK termis get 3 attacks...? 2 Base plus NFW + Storm Bolter with True Grit = 3 Attacks?

EDIT - Re-read the rule, my bad!

crazypsyko666 wrote:i'd give them all an extra attack right off, give the Aegis an invulnerable save, like 5+ or something like that, and everyone 2 wounds. otherwise it's fine to me.

i'd say give them a squad that's a little more assault oriented. Give them wrist-mounted meltas, and the regular NFWs.

How do you make the Grey Knights MORE assault oriented?

All they really want to do is charge yuo and lay the S6 beat down on you.

I think a nice bonus would be giving them I 5 though, so they have badass killing power BEFORE everyone else can generally go.

I think a nice, fun thing would be making the psycannon the standard weapon on GK Terminators instead of storm bolters.