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For my 800th post, I present you with an argument:

The Ultramarines don’t receive a great deal of support around Dakka. Many claim that they are too generalized, too perfect, and ultimately too boring. This critique, although undoubtedly founded in the disproportionate amount of attention GW showers upon the boys in blue, is fair in some respects.

Since Third Edition, the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium has grown ever darker. The forces of the Imperium, which we could take for granted as the good guys back in Rogue Trader, subscribe to a code of morality that we in the real world would have a hard time identifying as socially acceptable much less praiseworthy. And yet 40k fans love it. I personally think it’s primarily because we have so many other sci-fi franchise ramming conventional contemporary morals (noble though they may be) down our throats. It can therefore be refreshing exercise in imagination to immerse oneself into a world where love, tolerance, and openness are sure-fire ways to doom the species. I also think that we recognize a lot of our own flawed proclivities in the grim darkness and can healthily deal with them as imaginary, not letting ourselves become bigots and hatemongers in real life. In any case, the gothic horror of ignorance and constant war fueled by religious hate is part of what makes 40k a lot of fun.

Ultramarines do not fit into that paradigm very neatly.

Even before Roboute Guilliman was found by the inhabitants of Macragge, that planet was not a particularly terrible place (unlike Fenris, Caliban, etc, etc) but actually an already civilized and quite peaceful planet. Guilliman, like the other Primarchs, quickly rose to power. Unlike the others, his only obstacle (or perhaps rather his path) to leadership was a single attempted coup by his adoptive father’s co-consul. Guilliman reversed the coup and took power himself so that when the Emperor arrived all was perfectly in order. Macragge was justly ruled and the populace was healthy, wealthy, and completely obedient. And that’s pretty much the way it’s been ever since, except now Macragge is the capital of a healthy, wealthy, and obedient sub-empire. In other words, the Ultramarines seem to be beyond criticism. They always do everything perfectly for all the right reasons. How terribly boring.

But maybe not. I have not given the Ultramarines a lot of credit in the past but now that I think of it, they are one of the only (if not the only) example of how the Imperium can actually work to Humanity’s benefit in more than just assuring the survival and dominance of the species. Maybe the world of 40k still needs an obvious good guy so that, as long as there are Ultramarines on our side, the rest of us Imperials can at least make the claim that we’re somehow better than Chaos raiders and Dark Eldar slavers.



tl;dr Ultramarines maintain the moral order of the 40k universe

I too like the Ultramarines. They my be generic and every screaming 12-year-old has an army of them, but I still like them for being about the only morally correct faction in 40k.

I mean, being a dick to the good guys by playing as Chaos or Necrons is all well and good, but there's also something appealing about being the goodytwoshoes heroic faction.

Courage and Honour, Brothers!

Chivalry still exists in this dark millennium!

Ultramarines = Superman.

I'm surprised at the positive reception this has gotten . . . so far.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ultramarines = Superman.

THIS

Manchu wrote:I'm surprised at the positive reception this has gotten . . . so far.

I wouldn't call this positive.

Well, Orkeosaurus will have to elaborate. I took it as a positive comparison.

The ultrasmurffs do have a nice crib. And they have decent enough fluff. But I will always thirst for something different. Too many people go for them, there is too much about them, too exploited and controlled for me to be attracted to them.

I will always go for some chapter with a little more mystery, a little less coverage. Pretty much ANY other race/chapter fits that description.

I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.

Ppl play what they can relate to.

Ppl that are grim goth and emo , will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.

Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>
Ppl dont like valiant heroes anymore , only emo ones like Batman , Prototype , etc etc

Manchu wrote:Well, Orkeosaurus will have to elaborate. I took it as a positive comparison.

When I see some one compare something to Superman its generally a bad thing, that may just be me and the people I know though...

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I will die or worse *shudder* collect Fantasy, before I am corrupted by the Ultrasmurfs.

Hey Fantasy is pretty fun.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Ppl play what they can relate to.

Ppl are grim and emo , and will subconsciously pick armies which reflects that.

Im going to be burnt on a steak now arnt i >.>

Yes, yes you are, just not by me I really don't care

Lunahound! In my 40k Background threadz??? I'm honored. *bows*

So, Luna, what's your favorite Chapter?

@EF: I get what you're saying. So much of their stuff has been thoroughly laid out by GW. But I kind of like that. I prefer GW's fluff to fan made stuff when it comes to SM chapters.

@LunaHound: well, yeah. Kind of. I collect IG, BA and Witch Hunters, but I would hardly say I'm goth OR religeous. Also, batman is cool. Don't dis him. (I'm kidding, take the piss out of him as much as you want. But not the future one, k?)

@BrotherStynier: You are lost to us. Back! Back from whence you came!

I honestly think Fantasy has LESS tactics than 40k. It just involves more counting.

My favorite chapter..... if i must choose. Crimson Fist and Ultra Marines only because of their color scheme .

Oh , i like Batman especially Dark Knight ( but he is still emo o_o )

Superman and the Ultramarines are hated for the same reasons.

Good at everything, always win, bright colors, very popular, but most importantly neither one has some sort of dark, edgy side. There's no brooding or moral ambiguity; they do what's right, and know it.

For a lot of people that kind of idealism is seen as simplistic or childish.

Well, there are "goodies" in 40k apart from Ultrasmurffs. Like BA and sanguinius for example. (Also, Rowboat is often portrayed as arrogant or even a downright jackass at times)

Its easier to loose based off your list I think, but it does require alot of tactics. Like knowing when to charge, when to flank, which abilities to use and when also when to fall back.


As for the Smurfs, I just don't like how over the top they make Calgar I mean catching and stopping the Wailing Doom in his power fist...

Also how every Companies Captain is already named by GW.

@Luna: So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?

Well, I'm disappointed that it's not Spess Pupz but good choices. I like the Crimson Fists a lot, too. I wrote this because I've been thinking of playing a codex chapter for some time and am having trouble deciding between them and the Ultramarines.

@all: Stynier isn't lost. He's found . . . Chaos!

The only thing triky about fantasy is measuring the distance in your mind between units. That's it. If you got that down pat, then you're set.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Superman and the Ultramarines are hated for the same reasons.

Good at everything, always win, bright colors, very popular, but most importantly neither one has some sort of dark, edgy side. There's no brooding or moral ambiguity; they do what's right, and know it.

For a lot of people that kind of idealism is seen as simplistic or childish.

I thought so. I still call it a positive comparison. I wonder how young you have to be to call that sort of idealism childish, lol?

Manchu wrote:So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?

Well, I'm disappointed that it's not Spess Pupz but good choices. I like the Crimson Fists a lot, too. I wrote this because I've been thinking of playing a codex chapter for some time and am having trouble deciding between them and the Ultramarines.

Stynier isn't lost. He's found . . . Chaos!

Rather unsurprisingly that is my Fantasy Army. It has very little shooting which is why I went for it, my 40k armies are all about shooting.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The only thing triky about fantasy is measuring the distance in your mind between units. That's it. If you got that down pat, then you're set.

It might just be the kind of people you played with? The couple times I have gotten to play the game was either won lost or ended in a draw because of strategy. The draw also because I forgot how charging works in fantasy so I failed to bring my Chaos Knights into play. Flanking helped save that game from being a loss.

Manchu wrote:@Luna: So what does that say about you? What do you relate to, lol?

I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium

@Brother Stynier: Okay, Okay! We have befouled this thread enough with your praise of fantasy.

There is no such thing as "perfection in character", the beauty is in those who try their damn hardest.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Brother Stynier: Okay, Okay! We have befouled this thread enough with your praise of fantasy.

Fine then we will speak of it no more.

LunaHound wrote:I hate space marines . The only reason i even look at them is from a hobby perspective , i like some of their miniatures.
Fluff wise, i hate every single one of them including the whole Emperium

All there battles are over exated eg.:
Battle for Marrage: Only 10 gaunts, 3 genestealers and 1 hive tryant.
Battle for Black Reach: 20 boyz and warboss

as you can tell I hate the Ultrasmufs and there fluff.

Sternguard_rock wrote:as you can tell I hate the Ultrasmufs and there fluff.

And have read all about them, lol.

Rowboat Girlyman and his Codex Astartes came closer to destroying the imperium that Horus could have dreamed of. In a time when the imperium was the weakest he put forth the codex astartes and "suggested" that all the other legions conform to it. There was no debate period, there was no changing his "perfect" design, there we no suggestion box, it was conform or not. This divided the space marine legions in a time that required unity. Some chapters balked at the idea of giving up their sovereignty and weakening their legion, most chapters conformed because they feared the consequences for the imperium if they didn't, very few actually agreed with the codex astartes. Robot Beguileman, in his short-sighted foolishness disguised as foresight, almost became Horus 2.0.

In other news, GW needs to make his name less easy to make fun of and easier to spell.

I was wondering when the Codex question would come up.

To understand the the issue you have to frame it properly. Guilliman's insistence on the Codex was not simply based on his own ego. As everyone knows, the Codex was meant to split the Legions into Chapters, each of which would have a much harder time threatening the Imperium. The issue was about pride. Pride had caused the fall of each of the traitors and Guilliman wanted to make sure this would not happen again. Asking the loyalist Primarchs to put their own pride and ambition, made incarnate in their legions, aside so as to better protect the Imperium was a symbol of their loyalty. It is certainly a shame that the other Primarchs did not see things this way at first. If you ask me, the fact that it almost came to civil war illustrates how bad the situation was--how easily another heresy could have unfolded. But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus. I think this vindicates Guilliman and proves both his wisdom and his loyalty to the Emperor. The others may have been loyal at the time but they weren't as level headed. Who knows where such foolhardiness would have eventually carried them?

Manchu wrote:I was wondering when the Codex question would come up.

To understand the the issue you have to frame it properly. Guilliman's insistence on the Codex was not simply based on his own ego. As everyone knows, the Codex was meant to split the Legions into Chapters, each of which would have a much harder time threatening the Imperium. The issue was about pride. Pride had caused the fall of each of the traitors and Guilliman wanted to make sure this would not happen again. Asking the loyalist Primarchs to put their own pride and ambition, made incarnate in their legions, aside so as to better protect the Imperium was a symbol of their loyalty. It is certainly a shame that the other Primarchs did not see things this way at first. If you ask me, the fact that it almost came to civil war illustrates how bad the situation was--how easily another heresy could have unfolded. But the Codex has stood the test of time. There have been no significant heresies among the Marines since the days of Horus. I think this vindicates Guilliman and proves both his wisdom and his loyalty to the Emperor. The others may have been loyal at the time but they weren't as level headed. Who knows where such foolhardiness would have eventually carried them?

And you're a Space Wolf?

If Girlyman was at all intelligent, however, he would have realized how easily another Heresy could have happened, instead he almost started one! And as for whether or not it worked, we'll never know, those legions that chose to stay legions have yet to fall to chaos (A certain wolf-themed legion comes to mind) , while quite a few chapters have. It is a matter of opinion whether or not the Codex works, but it was introduced at the WORST time possible and Rowboat didn't give any other primarchs a say, I get the mental image of him slamming a gigantic book onto the ground, explaining that that is how space marines will work from now on, and walking off. Imperial forces actually fired on the Imperial Fists, a chapter that had proven it's loyalty time and time again, because they refused to adhere to the codex at first. Robot chose his own pride over the Imperium, and his own legion (which already adhered to the codex) over the other legions. Had he not been (for all intents and purposes) killed I believe there would have been a second heresy, with him at the helm.

Even if the codex was a good idea, it could have waited until the aftershocks of the Heresy quieted down, and he could have allowed the other chapters time to debate, add, or detract from it, rather than forcing it on them.