Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play Orks.
What effect does weapon destroyed have on wargear??? Does it effect the Deffrolla? It says it uses the battlewaggons weight to cause damage and takes place in the movement phase. Does it effect the boarding plank or the wreking ball? If it effects the Deffrolla does it effect the reinforced ram???? the rules are not very clear, I'm jus sayin thats all

Weapon destroyed won't affect exta armor on a landraider, and by similar logic, a boarding plank or deathroller won't be affected either.

Weapon destroyed only affects weapons, i.e. something with a weapon statline.

unistoo wrote:Weapon destroyed only affects weapons, i.e. something with a weapon statline.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

Pg.61 BRB: "Damaged - Weapon Destroyed ... This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles."

Seems pretty clear that it can be used to remove Ork vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as Deffrollas. There is no restriction that the upgrade in question must have a weapon statline, merely that it functions as a weapon.

DoW

Every codex has a clearly labeled table of "weapons" in the rear. I don't see deffrolla or grabbin' klaw in the back of the ork codex, therefore one can only surmise they are not, in fact, weapons.

The hunter-killer missile is not in the space marine weapon list. However, it is specifically mentioned as being affected by weapon destroyed.

An HK missile is defined as a Krak missile, which is on the weapon list.

The Defenestrator wrote:Every codex has a clearly labeled table of "weapons" in the rear. I don't see deffrolla or grabbin' klaw in the back of the ork codex, therefore one can only surmise they are not, in fact, weapons.

Where does it say they have to be weapons? It says they have to 'function' as weapons. I do not see how this excludes vehicle upgrades that can cause attacks and wounds to enemy models.

DoW

There was another thread on this awhile back:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/241947.page

Ultimately I don't think there was a definite answer to what constitutes a weapon for a 'weapon destroyed' result.

OK, so for something to function as a weapon, it needs to at least interact with a model like a weapon - Seeing as how I don't have an Ork 'dex can someone quote the relevant upgrade rules? That might help.

The key to this is understanding what it means for a vehicle upgrade to "function as a weapon". I think that upgrades such as HKs, deffrollas etc that directly attack in some way fit the description, but others have argued that functioning as a weapon is limited to things that work exactly like a Weapon or Close Combat Weapon. Basically it comes down to how restrictive or inclusive you find the phrase.

Read the linked thread if you are interested in the debate.

unistoo wrote:OK, so for something to function as a weapon, it needs to at least interact with a model like a weapon - Seeing as how I don't have an Ork 'dex can someone quote the relevant upgrade rules? That might help.

Sure thing.

Deff Rolla: "Any Tank Shock made by a battlewagon with a Deffrolla causes d6 S10 hits on the victim unit."
Wrecking Ball: "Causes a strength 9 hit on one unengaged enemy unit within 2" of the wrecking ball at the beginning of the assault phase on the roll of a 4+"

These vehicle upgrades are being used as weapons (strength values, rolling to hit, rolling to wound, etc) so I don't see why they don't count as "functioning as weapons" in the Weapon Destroyed Result.

Seems pretty clear cut, but I might be missing something.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

unistoo wrote:OK, so for something to function as a weapon, it needs to at least interact with a model like a weapon - Seeing as how I don't have an Ork 'dex can someone quote the relevant upgrade rules? That might help.

Sure thing.

Deff Rolla: "Any Tank Shock made by a battlewagon with a Deffrolla causes d6 S10 hits on the victim unit."
Wrecking Ball: "Causes a strength 9 hit on one unengaged enemy unit within 2" of the wrecking ball at the beginning of the assault phase on the roll of a 4+"

These vehicle upgrades are being used as weapons (strength values, rolling to hit, rolling to wound, etc) so I don't see why they don't count as "functioning as weapons" in the Weapon Destroyed Result.

Seems pretty clear cut, but I might be missing something.

DoW

That was my point of view in the above thread but many people will argue against that (who wants to lose the deff roller?)

Tri wrote:That was my point of view in the above thread but many people will argue against that (who wants to lose the deff roller?)

Great minds, as they say!

Though, to be fair, I don't really want to lose my Battle Cannon either... it's not *really* a weapon, right? I mean, it's the shells that actually cause the wounds...

DoW

@ DoW/Tri - I see what you mean, and I tend to agree, both with game-wise (they seem to have similar mechanics to any other 'weapon') and plain-language wise (sharp bits wot do the 'urtin) definitions.

but reinforced rams allow my trukks to tankshock which causes damage. So do weapon destroyed effect the ram? I see the stat line argument and if the HK says in the rules that it is effected by weapon destroyed they must have known it would come into question.

Grimgob wrote:but reinforced rams allow my trukks to tankshock which causes damage. So do weapon destroyed effect the ram? I see the stat line argument and if the HK says in the rules that it is effected by weapon destroyed they must have known it would come into question.

... tricky one is the ram it allows the vehicle to tank-shock and tank shock is an attack. I would say you could pick it for a weapon destroyed ... mind you it would be the last thing I'd bother to pick.

DogOfWar wrote:

unistoo wrote:OK, so for something to function as a weapon, it needs to at least interact with a model like a weapon - Seeing as how I don't have an Ork 'dex can someone quote the relevant upgrade rules? That might help.

Sure thing.

Deff Rolla: "Any Tank Shock made by a battlewagon with a Deffrolla causes d6 S10 hits on the victim unit."
Wrecking Ball: "Causes a strength 9 hit on one unengaged enemy unit within 2" of the wrecking ball at the beginning of the assault phase on the roll of a 4+"

These vehicle upgrades are being used as weapons (strength values, rolling to hit, rolling to wound, etc) so I don't see why they don't count as "functioning as weapons" in the Weapon Destroyed Result.

Seems pretty clear cut, but I might be missing something.

DoW

I would have to agree.

I've been leery of this thread since I saw a similar one a while ago about this same thing, and it degenerated rather quickly.

Personally, I'd say that if these vehicle upgrades give the vehicle a way to kill enemy troops, then they're a weapon. If the upgrade is able to cause direct harm to enemy troops, then a weapon destroyed result should be able to stop that harm. it's what 'weapon destroyed' is all about.

Especially on a BW with a Deff Rolla. I mean, what's more likely to cause damage, the 2 big shootas tacked on at the last second to soak weapon destroyed results, or the d6 s10 hits on a tank shock?

Oh damn, I just agreed with DoW.

no, it does not have a statline, you remove weapons with weapon destroyed, when they add the result vehicle upgrade destroyed to the damage table let me know, til then stop trying to cheese a victory.

kill dem stunties wrote:no, it does not have a statline, you remove weapons with weapon destroyed, when they add the result vehicle upgrade destroyed to the damage table let me know, til then stop trying to cheese a victory.

They have if it works like a weapons as you remove any thing that "functions like a weapon" with weapon destroyed results.

ok, so next time i fire my deffrolla in my shooting phase ill let you know .... Its not a weapon, or it would be in the back of the ork codex listed with all the other weapons, hk missiles dont count, as theyre referenced as identical to krak for all purposes.

kill dem stunties wrote:no, it does not have a statline, you remove weapons with weapon destroyed, when they add the result vehicle upgrade destroyed to the damage table let me know, til then stop trying to cheese a victory.

Well that was awfully rude of you.

The rulebook, page 61 wrote: One of the vehicles weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed... This can include vehicle upgrades that function as a weapon.

Thanks for playing, though.

ok, so next time i fire my deffrolla in my shooting phase ill let you know .... Its not a weapon, or it would be in the back of the ork codex listed with all the other weapons, hk missiles dont count, as theyre referenced as identical to krak for all purposes.

Dreadnought close combat weapons are never fired in the shooting phase, yet they are explicitly mentioned as being able to be destroyed by a weapon destroyed result. And what makes you say that HK missiles don't count. It doesn't say 'the vehicle is armed with a krak missile' the upgrade allows you to have the chance to fire a krak missile. If it was just a krak missile, the vehicle upgrade would be called a 'krak missile'.

dccws are used in assault phase, they were a dreadnaught close combat "WEAPON"

These are used in the shooting phase, much like BOTH examples qupted in the rules, people are rules lawyering here .

Pg.61 BRB: "Damaged - Weapon Destroyed ... This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles."

Neither of the examples are used in the movement phase, they are both obviously defined weapons, a storm bolter, pintle mounted references nothing but that its a pintle mounted weapon, i.e mounted by the cupola on a pintle. The rules then go to say hk missiles are krak missiles for all game purposes.

The whole upgrades arguement is nothing but hair splitting semantics, they show what they mean by reference, much as they did.

You're using two different definitions of 'weapon'. You start off by saying that anything that says 'weapon' on it, counts as a weapon. Then you say that only things that have a clearly defined statline and are used in the shooting phase are weapons. Which is it? You can't say that 'only upgrades which have a shooting statline and function in the shooting phase are weapons', and have an exception for DCCWs just because of their name. There are more rules pertaining to how a Wreckin' Ball is used as a weapon than there are rules for DCCWs. A Wreckin' ball is defined with a strength, a range, and a chance to hit, and also the phase it is used in. How does that make it any less of a weapon than a DCCW, which only doubles a walker's strength, and provides additional attacks in sufficient numbers.

As for Deff Rollas, they, like the Kilkannon (you accept that that's a weapon, right?), are in the Wargear section of the BW's entry. Like the Kilkannon, the entry consists of some fluff, followed by the rules for using it to kill enemy models. The only differences are that it A) causes damage in the movement phase and B) has it's rules, (like the wreckin' ball and DCCW) written in prose form rather than as a statline.

As for rules lawyering, I play orks (if my avatar and name didn't tip you off) and I am perfectly content to have my Deff Rollas shot off my BWs. Because they're clearly intended as a weapon. Whoops, I'm breaking away from the straw man you tried to set me up as. Sorry, I'll try to say things like 'Deff rollas are too powerful and have to be able to be shot off Battlewagons'. That should help your case, right?

I agree completely with Orkestra here.

Its a vehicle upgrade. It functions as a weapon.

If you state that there is a requirement to fulfill in order to function as a weapon, then please quote the rule stating the requirement. Saying that it is not a weapon because of some arbitrary restriction such as "it doesn't shoot" or "its not a power fist" is hollow as there is no defined requirement for what a vehicle upgrade has to do in order to make it function like a weapon. You have to examine this on a case by case basis. I really don't see how someone could tell you that a big spiky human rolling pin isn't a weapon. Nor a big ball on the end of a chain.

..... Bah I'm done on this one guys.

I could see that easily being the case. That the Deffrolla and Wreck ball are weapons. However, I disagree with the notion of it causes damage thus it's a weapon. Boarding Planks aren't a weapon in my opinion, they are just an upgrade that cn allow for damage, (even though it's a Ork inside that is doing it.)

There should, but unfortunatly is't a way to easily define weapons. It is my opnion though that not all upgrades that do damage, or that can do damage are weapons.

I'd think it'd be advantageous for it to count as a weapon since it's one more thing that has to be stripped off before it can be glanced to death.

arinnoor wrote:I could see that easily being the case. That the Deffrolla and Wreck ball are weapons. However, I disagree with the notion of it causes damage thus it's a weapon. Boarding Planks aren't a weapon in my opinion, they are just an upgrade that cn allow for damage, (even though it's a Ork inside that is doing it.)

There should, but unfortunatly is't a way to easily define weapons. It is my opnion though that not all upgrades that do damage, or that can do damage are weapons.

But it's not the Boarding Plank that is doing the damage, so it does not 'function as a weapon' any more than the top hatch in a rhino functions as a weapon because it allows passengers to fire out. For it to "function as a weapon" the upgrade itself must be doing the damage.

Also, someone must have made Orkestra mad, because I think this is the most serious I've ever seen him

In the Deffrolla description it says "a great spiked roller that brings the collossal weight of the battlewagon to bear on anything in its way" which uses the battlewaggon itself as a weapon and it lets you re roll dangerous terrain tests so it functions in a reinforced ram kind of way. with the no weapon stat line and the refrance of the HK missles not having a stat line but being specificly mentioned to be effected by weapon destroyed im inclined to think deffrolla is not effected by weapon destroyed (but wreking ball is).