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Not sure if this is the right section to post in, apologies if it isn't. Also, I have done several searches, but can't find a similar thread (there was one, but apparently people will get annoyed if I add to it).

I have a Guard army myself, but have stopped playing it in favour of my Black Templars because it became too easy to win in 5th edition. My opponents are Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, vanilla marines and Necrons.

My question is, with the massive buff to IG, especially with the new consolidation rules, how is a close combat oriented army supposed to beat them?

My situation is like this in most battles: my uber death squad of 10 CCW Initiates, 4 Neophytes and Helbrecht mounted in LR Crusader gun it straight at the Imperial Guard gunline, the assault ramp crashes open as the frag launchers fire simultaneously. Through the smoke, High Marshall Helbrecht and his squad charge into glorious combat... with 10 guardsmen.

Nothing but a red mist remains when the Templars are done, and in the flush of victory, they consolidate 6" towards the second squad of 5pt guardsmen... only to be halted by an invisible forcefield 1" from the enemy lines... Puzzled, Helbrecht and his squad patiently await the coming oblvion, muttering prayers to the Emperor and cursing the vile rules-gods, as they sit conveniently out in the open amidst rank upon rank of Guardsmen, heavy weapons, tanks etc. Replace squad with smoking crater.

Score: BT: 75pt , IG: 375pts.

Winning combat generally means the entire IG army can waste you with shooting in their turn, and if the terrain favours them, you probably won't make it into CC to begin with.

I'm very annoyed that they made the IG list more powerful (orders? WTF!), AND changed the basic rules in their favour. If the old consolidation were still applicable, I'd be happy (I think they did need a revamp). In my mind, the new IG is like how Necrons used to be, except the phrase is now 'If you keep losing, start a Guard army'.

Take some Whirl wind?

hmm or maybe some Land speeder storm with ccw scouts

First off, flanking would help. Hit the side of the army rather than the center. Also, hit with more than one unit, or hit both flanks. Don't let the entire enemy army shoot at you. Take some cover. In addition, black templar LRs are not assault vehicles, so as another suggestion, don't forget your rules. Also, vindicators in templars can have machine spirits. That is frickin awesome. Do it lotz and infantry mobs will melt away into that glorious red mist.

BT can't take Whirlwinds or Landspeeder Storms.

I'll give flanking a try, but along with assaulting guard in general, it still poses the problem of return fire after you've waded through one 50pt guardsman squad. Not having a go at you, but I'm not an idiot. I know cover is my friend against massed firepower, and what I described in my first post was just a generalisation of what happens in a typical battle v guard.

It's pretty easy for a guard player of minimal intelligence to work out that your rhino/Initiates/LR/Assault squad is hiding behind that forest/hill/terrain feature because it's going to pop around the corner and attempt assault. What does he do? Move another 6" away (or run if needed) or place a sacrifician squad out there to bait you. Since guardsmen and heavy/special weapons are so cheap now, the whole tactic of 'attack on multiple fronts, he can't take everything down' doesn't work anymore, because he simply has the guns to do so.

Regarding BT assault ramps, this is an obvious error on GW's part, and should have been corrected in the FAQ. How can you have a LR Crusader that you can't assault out of when it moves, for crying out loud. There'd be little point in taking one. If my opponent won't let me use the assault ramps, I wouldn't want to play him anyway.

I've contemplated using Vindis, but really, it'd be like pissing in the wind ordnance-wise. Short range and weak armour, plus the fact that one weapon destroyed means the thing is useless pretty much says it all. I'd get one shot, if I'm lucky, before it gets taken out.

Now, if we could get some real suggestions as to how to take down the Hammer of the Emperor...

One thought I just had was to have as many 5-man squads as possible, some in rhinos, the idea being to try to overwhelm with targets. Plus, when they reach the guard lines, you'll be able to attack/tie up twice as many squads at once, thus minimising the inevitable return fire after the retardation-I mean consolidation move. Meanwhile, landspeeders with multimeltas move flat out to get behind any tanks so that next turn, the guard player must choose between shooting them, or your squads (that are going to munch his troops). Thoughts?

Helmann wrote:Not sure if this is the right section to post in, apologies if it isn't. Also, I have done several searches, but can't find a similar thread (there was one, but apparently people will get annoyed if I add to it).

I have a Guard army myself, but have stopped playing it in favour of my Black Templars because it became too easy to win in 5th edition. My opponents are Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, vanilla marines and Necrons.

I found out why winning is so easy for you as imp guard.

That being said, if your going to charge forward and be a CC army, make sure you have more than 1 unit up there.
Also trying to win combat on your opponents turn instead of yours would also be good.

I'm not sure how these would work by they might be worth a try:

tank shocking and driving your LRC around to disrupt their lines. Maybe you can get one or two squads of IG isolated from the rest of the line, charge multiple units, and make sure your LRC blocks LOS of the rest of the army so your uber squad can't be targeted by too many guns.

You have to multi-charge. Having a single super squads wont do it because once you have killed the first thing in combat you will be shot to pieces. This means that wither you have to charge more that one squad with your single unit, or take several units and charge them all at once.

You should also use your vehicles as mobile cover to block LoS to some to some of your opponents army.

To start with, let me quote the famous anonymous: We are the Imperial Guard. Resistance is futile.

Now onto something more constructive:

Helmann wrote:
I have a Guard army myself, but have stopped playing it in favour of my Black Templars because it became too easy to win in 5th edition. My opponents are Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, vanilla marines and Necrons.

My opponents are roughly the same, and yet I get more draws than ever. Therefore I don't think your statement is as true as the absolute tone implies. Squads are, all considered, around 5-10 points cheaper, and HWS are out of fashion ever since May 3rd because they are so weak. If orders are what irk you, I suggest to neutralize the command squad, as it is the one with the juiciest ones.

Secondly, and no offense intended, you assert that you are not stupid yet charge your best unit completely unsupported straight into the heart of a gunline in the full knowledge of what will happen. I'm afraid that somehow, some things here do not go together well.

In general I think you're on the right track. Target overload is the way to go, and a crushing Alpha strike does certainly help, although it isn't always easily carried out. Remember to multicharge as much as you can. You do not want to pulp one squad, you ideally want to take on something stubborn and be safe in CC, or you want to take out as much in one go as you can.

Also, remember that it is not about killing as much as you can except for KP's (and that should be easy). If you can position your deathstar somewhere relatively safe and deny him an area or route, then that might be all you need - as long as you keep him off any objective and take the ones you need.

Helmann wrote:
What does he do? Move another 6" away (or run if needed) or place a sacrifician squad out there to bait you.

Such a squad must not stop you. Just drive through them. Where's the problem? When they move and run, they can't hurt you. When they sit on an objective, they cannot run, or will have to re-capture it, and that is easier said than done.

Just run a blitz at them. Multi-charge around their sacrificial squads/chimeras with your rightous zeal moves.

Run towards them in long lines, at max coherency. Take casualties from the back end of the lines, Pfist guys at the front for Chimera popping. It should only take 1 turn (move + run + fall forward + move + charge) to get there, 2 at max. Intelligent use of rhinos/land raiders can give most of your strings cover saves.

Don't take a tooled up CC unit, it can't make its points back vs. Guard. More wounds with more fists are the way to go. If you are trying to avoid tooling for a specific foe, I'd think carefully about how good that tooled up unit is nowadays. BT hit so hard with preferred enemy they rarely actually need their doom command squad.

Guard suffer from a serious case of disappearing firepower syndrome once you get up close, as their chimera wrecks start blocking LOS and giving cover saves and stop shooting multi lasers. Also the same Chimeras they have to feed you to keep you away from the Russes are their main scoring threat.

Also worth noting is that if you are about to take a sacrificial squad, as you do in your example, you should do your move in such a way that just one of your joes and his coherency buddy makes it into combat (certainly not Grimaldus). With only 2 guys charging in, and no power weapon/fist, the odds aren't wretched that they'll hold, and next round you can obliterate them after ducking the shooting phase.

Wait a little, Open a hole, then multi-charge the larger squads/tank squadrens/command sqauds/multiple chimeras.

Yes those guardsmen are ablative awesome but if your seperating your infantry platoons into singular squads then your shooting yourself in the foot vs killpoint missions (so in 33% of missions you can charge 30 guardsmen at once). Even in non-kill-point missions, guardsmen are horribly easy to kill, per groups of 10.

Wait with your death squad.

Open a hole in thier ablative infantry lines

Charge in and get stuck into multiple high-value units. Careful not to assault the Heavy Russes with rear AV11 with str4 guys.

What massive buff? They are slightly harder than their 3rd edition selves, which is what they still play like. Get in close and murderize 'em its whats for breakfast.

They got massively buffed. And that buffs name is vendetta.

(making 150 bucks off every guard player = great business plan)

The no consolidating into CC also helps a foot army nicely as well, but you do have to avoid the multicharge.

Frazzled wrote:What massive buff? They are slightly harder than their 3rd edition selves, which is what they still play like. Get in close and murderize 'em its whats for breakfast.

Except that they now have options that grant them high mobility, something they've never had before. This is an extremely potent asset in 5th edition, and it alters the potential and threat range/threat type of the army in a big way. They're only about 1/2 like 3rd edition Guard at this point.

Helmann wrote:Now, if we could get some real suggestions as to how to take down the Hammer of the Emperor... Thoughts?

I developed a 5E tactic called Light Bulb charging, its the response to no consolidation, and it effectively fixes the issue you are describing, actually quite neatly.

I am really surprised I haven't seen it more. I'll share it with you.

It's called the lightbulb charge for the top down geometry of the miniatures as you arrange them on the table.

The idea is to use geometry to restrict the number of combatants on your side, in an otherwise pointedly advantageous melee, by positioning them intentionally to minimize the number of attacks you get and ensure a second round of close combat. At it's core it is a 2 turn charge that makes use of the 5th ed mechanics for counter charge, bringing the bulk of your combatants into a fight at the end of CC round 1. Then wining overwhelmingly in CC round 2 in the opponents next turn. I developed this originally to keep outflanking Genestealers alive but it works equally well in any assault where the attackers have multiple models and an overwhelming assault capacity, but need to stay shielded from nearby firepower for a turn.

Here is the illustrated example:



Setting up the light bulb with a string of attackers leading back to a clump of the majority of the unit.



Moving the entire light bulb formation 6 inches leaves only 2 engaged models, even after the counter charge.



At this point the intentionally blunted Templars charge only involves 2 (bt) models, vs the entire IG unit of 10 (or potentially more), this should yield an essentially drawn, or very even combat that lasts a second round. Ideally the charging models might even loose, and the defenders won't have the opportunity to fail a morale check.

After this round is fought a consolidation move brings in all the remaining Templars to fight in the second round, where they will certainly eradicate (ig1). Then they will be free to move charge (ig2) in their next turn, simply having used geometry and timing to stay insulated for 2 turns instead of 1.

This eliminates the 1 inch 'Force Bubble' problem.

Augustus:

Very nice!

Augustus:

Impressive! I'm guessing against forces with lots of blasts you make a "T" instead?

Eh, the way he's drawn it, some of the IG would be forced into the second and third BT models because the reaction move tells us that you have to move to enemy models that are not in B2B if possible.

Then, because of the 2" engagement range... well that's still a dead guard squad.

against the right deployment I'm betting that he can avoid getting a unit matched up with the last BT member before the clump so he'd only have 2 models in BTB and 3 engaged models.

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

Firstly, 'sigh'...'double sigh', can everyone please stop looking at the scenario in my first post as the ENTIRETY of the battle. As I said in my reply, it's just a generalisation, it's an isolated incident which basically describes what happens in the whole battle. I'm not in the habit of charging one unit across open ground into a shooty army (although sometimes there's no choice). Please stop talking about 'you shouldn't be charging one death start straight at their lines'. Duh. Again, I'm not an idiot.

Timmah: Yes, CC armies... that's what this thread is about. I'm after some viable tactics that CC armies can use against the new Guard.

Lord Solar Plexus: my statement is true. I HAVE stopped using Guard in my gaming group, because it's too easy to win with them in 5th ed. I'm talking about MY gaming group (although I would like to hear of other people experiences against Guard). Basic knowledge of statistics would imply that one case (or even two) of IG being overpowered or not does not provide enough data to make any real conclusions. Neutralising command is not that easy. They're often buried behind enemy lines, usually in a Chimera (and if he uses Creed, Emperor protect you).

Against a typical 1500pts Guard army, retreating the wing that I am attacking is a very good strategy. While the infantry that have moved/ran can't shoot at me, the Battletanks and Banewolves certainly can. Crack open a rhino, douse with chem cannon (wounds on 2+, AP3) = dead squad.

All this aside, many people seem to be advocates of the 'multi-charge' strategy. So multiple small units > less big ones? How I've been running my army is big squad in LRC, and two medium sized squads in Rhinos. Hasn't gotten me very far.

Augustus: Wow, I'll definitely have to try that one out. Does it lend itself more to footslogging units? I'm guessing it does, since your unit would have to be on foot for a turn to get into 'light bulb' formation (probably not a good thing v Guard). Still, it looks very useful, perhaps better for jump troops. It's similar to 40kenthusiast max coherency, except you're more likely to wipe out the squad in the 2nd round of combat. I have do some reservations due to willydstyle's comment. I'll just have to try it in the field.

Finally, I do realise that CC armies have always been rather 'all-or-nothing' against shooty armies. I'm not complaining that 'my rock isn't beating the IG paper, WAAAA!', I'm simply trying to develop some reasonable tactics to counter the 5th ed. boost that IG received... So don't bother pointing that out!

I personally think one problem with your situation is that armies that focus mostly on CC don't do well in a 5th ed environment.

CC can be highly useful to clear objectives on the last few turns, hell it's hard to get those objectives without some CC capability, but you need some ranged capability to deal with at least some of your opponent's ranged units to prevent the situations that you've been describing.

Nurglitch wrote:Very nice!

Thank you!

AdeptSister wrote:Impressive! I'm guessing against forces with lots of blasts you make a "T" instead?

Thank you also and actually no, because the lightbulb formation will never take fire, those diagrams are all only like that during the move and assault phases by the end of the BT turn the consolidation of the unit will have disolved the lightbulb shape entirely.

Wildstyle wrote:Eh, the way he's drawn it, some of the IG would be forced into the second and third BT

Perhaps, it was an eyeballed illustration, I think it would be reasonable to say, given that geometry, that perhaps 2 of the BT Models would get engaged, still thats only 3 models, or 9 attacks, about 3 kills... It's not a perfect strategy, admittedly, if the attacks are to succesful, then the enemy unit may break in the morale test. A better target would have been a more spread out IG unit, but the image would be harder to create, it was just an example, a technicality, the concept certainly has risks but still holds.

Helmann wrote:Does it lend itself more to footslogging units? I'm guessing it does, since your unit would have to be on foot for a turn to get into 'light bulb' formation (probably not a good thing v Guard).

Actually no, you can spill that pattern strait out of the side AND front of a Landraider VERY easily, I could have even drawn it in, by simply using the side door in addition to the assault ramp. I would admit however (and agree) it's a great foot slogger tactic for units of larger size, say sisters, or Orks because they can easily stretch out further.

Tone down your killer squad by a little bit. I know precisely jack about BT, but try to take only enough to kill less than 10 guardsmen per turn, but more than 5. If that doesn't work, try not assaulting infantry, almost all guard vehicles are rear AV10 or 11, so if he's gunlining you can direct that S6 (krak grenades) and S8 (power fists) hate towards his lemon russians or basilisks, or heavy weapons squads, etc.

Other effective techniques include tankshocking guardsmen squads closer together to multi-charge them, or screening your killy-squad with their transport so they can't focus half their fire on them.

Indeed, also good advice, certainly a game of inches!

Great advice gents

I never thought of using tank-shock as a means to 'corral' the enemy, I'll have to give it a whirl.

As to my death squad... I'll say no more about that. I doubt I'll be using it at all anymore against guard. I think my solution is just to have as many 5 man squads in rhinos and on foot as possible, which is certainly viable if I drop my 600+ point uber unit.

I only end up playing 1500pts at most, and I'm not even sure my LRC is worth it. Just seems like a big point sink to me. If I do ever use it again, I'll definitely try the 'lightbulb' trick. (I never run big footslogging units against guard. 9/10 they get pie-plated to death).

Deepstriking units have also been suggested to me, but to my mind, since you can't assault, you're just sacrificing a unit or two as a distraction to give your other units time to make it into CC. Plus, DSing is always a gamble, esp. if you want to land right behind enemy lines. Thoughts?

Tank-shock corrals are something I dread, but have not yet been on the wrong end of.

Other things I hate are returning my pie-plate fire, and screening with transports.

HOWEVER, lascannon shots might well pop said transports early on.

(Anywho, multi-charging is fairly easy to avoid, against primarially CC armies, i'll be bunching up, and spacing the squads out. But yes, the lightbulb could be an issue)

Lascannons are definitely a good idea: the only problem being that Black Templars don't get Devastator squads and rely on Predators and Land Raiders for their Lascannons. Lascannons may not be Melta Guns, but they're still good for softening up the opposition because that opposition is in position, particularly if they're armed to the teeth with Melta Guns themselves.

Augustus:

Do you have the time to re-draw those diagrams to take into account the finicky details? Because there's nothing worse than a good idea that people might ignore because you forgot to dot the i and cross the t.

First of all very impressive augustus!
When I play against guard I usually lose...
I usually try to hit one flank with everything that I have. Hoping my opponnent hasn't the speed to react.

So Augustus takes credit for "developing" a way to extend combat over a turn.

Hate to break it to you but people have been doing this ever since consolidation into HtH was axed by the rules. It's a rather obvious way to stay safe from being fired upon in CC.

Augustus wrote:

I developed a 5E tactic called Light Bulb charging, its the response to no consolidation, and it effectively fixes the issue you are describing, actually quite neatly.

Take a elementary tactic and attach a name to it and claim ownership....nice. (by the way, multi-charging is generally a better plan than this "light bulbing")

I think I'll try it too.

I've got this tactic I like to call "Power Blading", its this cool thing you can do with characters. If you look in the Wargear section you're able to get powerswords, these blades have an awesome ability to negate armour! Try it, its pretty cool.

...and remember, you heard it here first! "Power Blading" for a close combat advantage over basic troops!

-Sheesh!

Beerfart:

1. You're not describing a tactic, something that you can apply in game, you're describing a strategy, something that you decide prior to the game. So nice try, but wrong forum. Maybe if you posted your amazing new strategy in the Army Lists forum...

2. Yeah, it's elementary, but so what? Sometimes people need to point out the elementary tactics, particularly in the Tactics forum, because it's not always obvious to everyone, and usually not obvious to beginners. It was not obvious to the original poster, for example.

3. The fact that Augustus put some effort into making diagrams is heartening because it shows some effort to understand the tactics in the game, which is something the Tactics forum needs more of, since most advice is boils down to strategic advice rather than things to actually do on the board to implement that strategy successfully. Given your own weak attempt at advice is strategic in nature, and simply disparaging his contribution, I'd say the score is Augustus 1, Beerfart FAIL.