Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

Played a game Friday and I was shooting my smart missiles at an IG command squad who were hiding behind a tank and we had a debate on cover saves.

I informed him the only way to get a cover save is if you’re a) inside area terrain or the base is touching it, b) firing through units. Seeing as the SMS doesn’t need LOS to shoot at targets this negates a and b and therefore he doesn’t receive a cover save.

However, when reading the rules for SMS quote ”The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer.”.

The section in bold is where the argument lays. He literally takes it as “If there is blocking terrain between the SMS and the unit (such as his tank) then he gets a cover save as it lies between the SMS and unit.

Lies – dictionary.com;

–verb (used without object)

1. to be in a horizontal, recumbent, or prostrate position, as on a bed or the ground; recline.
2. (of objects) to rest in a horizontal or flat position: The book lies on the table.

To me this indicates if the SMS is horizontal (broadly stated) as it is most of the time not vertical to units indicating the SMS would be on ground level when firing.

I didn’t want to argue anymore with him on the subject but I know he is wrong with this as I have read many forums confirming my opinion right.

How would it best be to explain to him he doesn’t get a cover save? (If all fails show him this thread).

Many thanks!

PS

I have drawn a picture to illustrate the dilemma.

I'm virtually certain how you can gain a cover save VS SMS is covered in C:Tau Empire under the SMS section.

However, in 5th, as far as I'm aware, not requiring LOS does not necessarily mean the shots are barrage.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, you gain the benefit of not having to 'see' your target, but you may still target them and fire your missiles, however, they maintain the benefit of cover (your missiles could accidentally ricochet off the rhinos armor, or whatever 'fluffy' explanation you prefer).

Seems like the game was played correctly.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But you only gain cover if you're in it or touching it and he wasn't. His entire premis is the ies between them and the firer bit.

Ok, First of all, @Tyron, you are in Breach of Rule #6 of YMTC. You do not need to bring Dictionary Quotes into this.

Secondly, the SMS says they can benefit from cover if they are in, touching or if it lies between.

A Rhino is not cover, so the Guardsmen will not get the Cover Save. A Wrecked Rhino is however, so they would if it was a Wrecked Rhino.

*Disclaimer: This is a "How I Would Play It" posting. *

"The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching..."

The target must be in or touching an item that provides a cover save of some sort. Vehicle, wreck, crater, ruins, etc. all qualify.

"... if it lies between them and the firer".

Another qualifier. Obviously if they are in area terrain it will always be between them and the firer. Non-area terrain is where the "lies between them and the firer" comes in. If the target is in contact with a sandbag wall but it's behind them from the perspective of the incoming fire, it won't provide a save.

From your diagram he's not touching, but he's awfully close. If this was a FLGS game night type scenario I'd let it slide. When it's clear the intent of the player is to hug a piece of terrain and gain cover from it we have to make allowances for the fact that the sometimes models are dynamically posed and can't touch bases because of arms, guns, etc.

If it was a tournament and all stops are pulled RAW if he's not TOUCHING you are right. How I Would Play It is unless it was a game breaker I'd let them get the save if it was obvious they were trying for cover saves (which it appears they were).

Tyron wrote:But you only gain cover if you're in it or touching it and he wasn't. His entire premis is the ies between them and the firer bit.

Nowhere in the rules for the SMS does it contradict the rules in the BGB for cover. In 5th because of true line of sight, if the enemy models are obscured by a piece of terrain they are able to take the relevant cover save.

A SMS allows you to fire at models that are not in your LOS. However, if the models are obscured by a terrain feature they are still able to take the save.

The line you have quoted does not say that the target can ONLY count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer. This line is a throwback to a previous edition when if you were in a certain distance of area terrain you could not see a target, and it has little application now since the rules have changed.

To sum up, your opponent was correct.

Regwon wrote:
The line you have quoted does not say that the target can ONLY count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer.

That's exactly what it does say.

There are two ways to get cover saves from SMS.

a) be in area terrain
b) be touching a piece of terrain between you unit and the SMS

This line is a throwback to a previous edition when if you were in a certain distance of area terrain you could not see a target, and it has little application now since the rules have changed.

I don't see the relationship there at all. If you were deep in area terrain you would always get the cover save so no clarification is needed for that.

Regwon is right here about the opponent being in cover and TLOS. On page 21 of the rule book it classifies cover as "...anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incomming shots." On the same page it goes on to describe when models are in cover by stating that they are in cover "when any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of vies of the firer, the model is in cover."

So because his unit is behind the rhino (I'm assuming it was actually a chimera as you said he was playing IG), and was either partially obscured or fully obscured as you did not have to have LOS, it is in cover as per rules from the BRB and does not have to be touching cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arschbombe wrote:

Regwon wrote:
The line you have quoted does not say that the target can ONLY count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer.

That's exactly what it does say.

There are two ways to get cover saves from SMS.

a) be in area terrain
b) be touching a piece of terrain between you unit and the SMS

This line is a throwback to a previous edition when if you were in a certain distance of area terrain you could not see a target, and it has little application now since the rules have changed.

I don't see the relationship there at all. If you were deep in area terrain you would always get the cover save so no clarification is needed for that.

Ahhh... I now see what the problem is here and dont know if it will be resolved as it can be argued both ways I guess. Nowhere in the rule for SMS does it state that they have to be in terrain to be in cover, although I guess it could be argued that in spirit it suggests that it must be area terrain. The other argument could be that the rulebook states that a figure is IN COVER (satisfying the "cover they are in" exception)... Interesting... I'm not really sure now

Arschbombe wrote:

Regwon wrote:
The line you have quoted does not say that the target can ONLY count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer.

That's exactly what it does say.

There are two ways to get cover saves from SMS.

a) be in area terrain
b) be touching a piece of terrain between you unit and the SMS

The line does not say only and by RaW the word only cannot be inferred. If the line did say only they you would be correct, but it doesnt. There are also no other rules in the SMS entry that contradict the core rules in the BGB that state:

BGB, p21, When are models in Cover? wrote:
When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 61) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

Didn't know about the dictionary thing sorry.

The Green Git - That's how I would play it too, but his models where not touching any area terrain or the chimera.

Regwon is wrong on this though because his premis is the chimera between the SMS and the command squad blocks line of sight. However the SMS voids TLOS as it doesn't need it and in the description the SMS moves around objects.

Regwon wrote:
The line does not say only and by RaW the word only cannot be inferred. If the line did say only they you would be correct, but it doesnt.

I don't see that it needs to include the word only. The SMS rule tells you the two conditions by which target units can get cover benefits from SMS.

There are also no other rules in the SMS entry that contradict the core rules in the BGB that state:

BGB, p21, When are models in Cover? wrote:
When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 61) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

The cover rules all hinge on LOS from the firer. SMS does not use/need LOS so any cover gained by restricted/obscured/blocked LOS does not apply.

SMS does not need LOS - so it can choose the unit as a target. End of bonus.
That has zero bearing on cover saves, as SMS is not barrage.
The unit should get cover.

Note: As was mentioned, if the word "only" or "barrage" was included in the rulebook instead of the asserted text, I daresay this would change things.

Using your own tanks as cover(in the rhino situation) is stupid and pointless in real life because they are another thing for the enemy to shoot at, just as your own men don't like being used as a meat shield. To represent this, the rules were formulated to not include vehicles as being classified as cover, and therefore the SMS just spirals behind the tank, blows up the marines, and the devilfish goes back to the hangar.

No one cares what happens in real life since we are discussing 40k rules. And they do grant cover in this case.

I know, I was remarking how vehicles aren't classified as cover, and it might be because of the reflective real life situation. Don't blow your top, I'm just trying to help If I'm not, my apologies. I'll back away from the thread, before I do any real damage...

One option in this case is to attack the vehicle with the SMS and hope it explodes. Those bubbas wouldn't get cover from that.

back on topic: Codex trumps rulebook and the codex rules identify the two conditions by which units can get cover from SMS. Being behind a transport, but not touching it doesn't meet the criteria. So no cover save.

Codex does not even disagree with the main rules, let alone trump them.

Page 27 BRB "the target can count the benefits of the cover they are in, or are touching it if it lies between them and the firer."

The rules for SMS are as follows; The smart missile system fires self-guiding missiles with the intelligence of a drone, which first search for then hunt down the target, passing around any blocking terrain.

The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer."

In the example given if the unit were in cover, touching it or touching the tank then sure they would get a cover save, they would also get a cover save if they were touching it and i could see some of the unit.

However we can follow this simple step by step list.

Was the unit in cover? = Nope
Was the unit partialy in cover? = Nope
Was the unit being obscured or blocked line of sight to the SMS? = Nope as the SMS doesn't need line of sight.

In conclusion they would not get a cover save, yes?

The codex identifies the two conditions that allow cover saves from SMS. It doesn't say that SMS can fire without LOS and then determine cover saves normally.

Arschbombe wrote:The codex identifies the two conditions that allow cover saves from SMS. It doesn't say that SMS can fire without LOS and then determine cover saves normally.

The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or are touching if it lies between them and the firer

Not needing LOS means the unit can be targeted without LOS. That is all. It does not affect cover saves. Still.

But the argument is if the tank would give them a cover save as it obscures the LOS for the SMS. If it were any other tank it would not be able to see behind the chimera and thus not shoot at the command squad.

However with SMS I don't need to see, the tank doesn't block line of sight as I shoot around it and as they're out in the open, not in or touching cover or the tank they get no save.

You are incorrect. The tank does block line of sight.

Line of Sight, however, is not needed for targeting, as the SMS can engage models without it.

No mention is made of ignoring cover because of LOS. Another cover save option is given, so if anything more cover saves than normal are allowed from SMS.

You are incorrect. The tank does block line of sight.

That doesn't even make sense.

How can the tank block LOS if the SMS doesn't need it? It doesn't.

Line of Sight, however, is not needed for targeting, as the SMS can engage models without it.

You have just contradicted yourself and voiding your first statment.

No mention is made of ignoring cover because of LOS. Another cover save option is given, so if anything more cover saves than normal are allowed from SMS.

Can you show me in the rulebook where it says this?

I have pointed out the only way he would get a cover save. I would like you to do the same please.

Also, LOS!=Cover. They're similar but not the same. A rule that references does not automatically reference the other. The same can be said of the process for determining each.

ajfirecracker wrote:Also, LOS!=Cover. They're similar but not the same. A rule that references does not automatically reference the other. The same can be said of the process for determining each.

Whaaaat???

Read page 15 of the main rules. And in fact the whole shooting section. Then re-read this thread.

So by your reading a unit out of LOS will always get a save from SMS?

How about you quote me on where I am wrong with the BRB kirsanth?