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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The Imperial Guard Manticore Rocket Launcher unit entry (IG codex, pg 103) says: "Wargear: Storm Eagle Rockets."


The Manticore's Limited Ammunition Special Rule (IG codex, pg 54) says: "A Manticore Rocket Launcher typically carries a rack of four rockets. Make a note each time a rocket is fired. Once the Manticore Rocket Launcher has fired four times it has run out of ammunition. It cannot be re-armed and hence cannot be fired again during the same game. Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher each turn."


The Storm Eagle Rockets rule (IG codex, pg 54) says: "A Manticore Rocket Launcher fires deadly Storm Eagle rockets. Each rocket delivers multiple warheads into the heart of enemy formations, detonating with devastating effects.
Range: 24"-120", Strength: 10, AP: 4, Type: Ordnance Barrage D3*, Large Blast.
*Roll each time the Manticore Rocket Launcher fires."


The 'Damage Results' section of the rulebook (pg 61) says: "Damaged - Weapon Destroyed. One of the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed -- ripped off by the force of the attack. . .This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles."




QUESTION: Do you play that a single 'Weapon Destroyed' result against a Manticore's Storm Eagle Rockets means that only one Rocket is destroyed or all of them?



OPTION A. I play that ALL the Storm Eagle Rockets are destroyed by a single 'Weapon Destroyed' result.


OPTION B. I play that ONLY ONE Storm Eagle Rocket is destroyed PER 'Weapon Destroyed' result.


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

Voted B.

The manticore has "stormeagle rockets" as weapon, not a "rocket launcher" with storm eagle rockets as ammunition.
If the rockets are his weapons, then each rocket counts as one IMO.

I do not fully understand what the issue is here. The RAW seems really clear. You destroy a whole weapon system, not an individual shot of the weapon. If a chaos rhino had a combi weapon on it the entire combi weapon is destroyed, not just the bolter or special weapon component.

The codex clearly says Wargear: Storm eagle rockets. Its a weapon with a limited number of shots, not 4 one shot weapons like if it had multiple hunter killer missiles.

Is there more to this issue that i'm missing? Usually these YMTC polls are pretty open to interpretation, but this seems like a stretch to see each missile as separate.

I also do not see an issue.

However, in keeping with the meaning of the thread, I shall state that I play it as the RaW says, Option A.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I do not fully understand what the issue is here. The RAW seems really clear. You destroy a whole weapon system, not an individual shot of the weapon. If a chaos rhino had a combi weapon on it the entire combi weapon is destroyed, not just the bolter or special weapon component.

The codex clearly says Wargear: Storm eagle rockets. Its a weapon with a limited number of shots, not 4 one shot weapons like if it had multiple hunter killer missiles.

Is there more to this issue that i'm missing? Usually these YMTC polls are pretty open to interpretation, but this seems like a stretch to see each missile as separate.

I hesitate to get into a discussion about this, since it isn't the point of the thread, but basically the issue I think bothers some people is that they chose to go with 'Storm Eagle Rockets' (which is plural) instead of something like 'Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher' which would have made it much more obvious that the whole thing is destroyed with one damaged result.

Continuing on with the ambiguity is the fact that the expanded rules for the vehicle says things like: "Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher each turn", which would only really be necessary if each Rocket was considered a separate weapon.


In the end, if the rules are as crystal clear as you say, then I think we should see a pretty fair majority of players playing it one way. If that turns out not to be the case then I am interested to see what the ratio looks like.

Ah, thanks for explaining that yakface. I had not noticed that ambiguity. My vote is still for A but i can see how some would think B now.

I see it as Option A.

I say so because there is only one entry for the weapon system (even though it may have more ammunition) listed under the vehicles entry and whilst the specific rules headings describing that the weapon system only has a limitied ammunition suppy it still is only one weapon.

In the game sense, the 'Weapon destroyed' may not esssentially destroy all four (of the limitied rockets) but instead could be the destruction of the guide rails or the delicate targetting array.. etc.

The rules description tells us that the Manticore typically carries four rockets.. (It does definitely go on to definitively tell us that the manticore can only fire four times, so thats fine) ... but it could also be that the tank commander only ever has authority to fire four of these expensive rockets in a single campain or that the fire-support system comes with many warheads but only enough rocket fuel to accomadate four rockets before refueling.. etc.

You simply couldnt destroy part of the single heading of "Storm eagle rockets" as that just doesnt make gramatical sense and along those lines, I think this lends further support to option A.

Lastly there is a pretty clear description in the subsequent vehicle-entry about the effects of weapon destroyed results on that particular weapon-system so I think with the proximity of those two it lends support to Option A, in that the developers obviously took into account weapon-destroyed results on thier various new vehicles and the lay-out of the new manticore heading didnt need anything more to be added.

Voted 'A' and ditto on Razerous' reasoning.

The 'Rockets' description does make for some ambiguity but I'd still play as 'A'. It seems everyone agrees that if it had been 'Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher' there wouldn't be a discussion.

DoW

I voted option 'B', it seems pretty clear to me that they are all mutiple weapon systems.

Though, with a poll like this I dont think you will get good results you will have IG players voting one way and opponets of IG players voting the other way.

yakface wrote:

Continuing on with the ambiguity is the fact that the expanded rules for the vehicle says things like: "Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher each turn", which would only really be necessary if each Rocket was considered a separate weapon.

Voted A. I quoted the above because for me, interestingly, what for you make it seem as if they are separate weapons only further reinforce in my mind that they are a single weapon with multiple shots, hence why only 1 can be fired per turn, as opposed to as many as movement allowed.

broxus wrote:I voted option 'B', it seems pretty clear to me that they are all mutiple weapon systems.

Though, with a poll like this I dont think you will get good results you will have IG players voting one way and opponets of IG players voting the other way.

Doesn't have to be true at all. I play IG and I voted A.

It's pretty obvious that the Storm Eagle Rocket system is one weapon system. I play Guard and when it's destroyed, it's destroyed.

I dont want to drag this off topic, but simply to bring another aspect into this discussion (to help this one maybe?)
How have tau seeker missiles been ruled when a weapon destroyed result is rolled?

Tau Seeker missiles are seperate weapons, like HKs

Not similar at all.

I like the combi weapon example it destroys both bolter and the other . So i voted A

I voted A, but upon reading more closely I am no longer certain. I think to be certain it was B the Wargear part would need to say "4 Storm Eagle Rockets". I think the general gist of text is to suggest that it is one weapon system, but the specifics point to 4 seperate weapons that can only be fired one at a time.

Can I retract my vote for A? I no longer think it is definitely correct, and would play it either way in a game.

I voted A, as the weapon listed is removed by the destroyed result.

B makes some sense, but I think I'd want to have clearer rules governing it before I argued something that I think most people would second guess.

Also, from a realism standpoint, it probably wouldn't be too hard to disable the firing mechanism. Having to shoot off each individual missile would be strange.

Thus, I voted A. (And, for what it's worth, I use one myself.)

I'm on the side of B because the army list entry lists it's weapons as "Storm Eagle Rockets" of which it carries 4.

I consider this equivalent to a Leman Russ with a "Pair of Sponsons" you do not destroy both sponsons with a single weapon destroyed despite them being listed together, and as such, despite the missiles being listed together, you must destroy them seperately.

Steelmage99 wrote:

broxus wrote:I voted option 'B', it seems pretty clear to me that they are all mutiple weapon systems.

Though, with a poll like this I dont think you will get good results you will have IG players voting one way and opponets of IG players voting the other way.

Doesn't have to be true at all. I play IG and I voted A.

^^This.

This one is another example of the lack of vetting on the IG codex.

However, I voted B because:

The name of the entire vehicle is "Manticore Rocket Launcher", so the only way to destroy the launcher itself would appear to be to destroy the vehicle.

Each hellstrike missile on the valk we treat as a separate weapon, as well as the hellfury on the vendetta.




Not playing IG I would prefer A to be true, but think its probably B.



Sliggoth

Voted A: weapon is referred to as "Storm eagle rockets" (denoting a grouping as opposed to four individual rockets), and under limited ammunition refers to "A (as in one, singular) rack of four rockets".

Kill the launcher/rack (the weapon), kill all four rockets (the ammunition).

Also, kirsanth makes the valid RAW point: it's listed as one weapon in the unit entry.

Common sense would appear to support playing mode A:. RAW might dictate otherwise. A careful word parsing will be in order.

I believe that as it is a single entry on its profile, it is destroyed with a single weapon destroyed result.

I voted A. I believe that since the vehicle can only fire the missiles once each turn that it is intended to have a singular firing mechanism.

If the four missiles were seperate weapon systems then I believe they would be able to fire independantly of each other.

Just to clarify: IIRC, the Storm Eagle Rockets are Ordinance weapons, so you would only be able to fire one per turn even if it had no other rule expressly forbidding it.

DoW

A. It's a single weapon that happens to have a plural name. The convention used in Codex IG for multiple weapons would list them as 4 Storm Eagle Rockets if they were meant to be separate weapons.

If they had wanted it to only cost you a single rocket, they would have equipped the Manticore with four single-shot weapons, rather than a single weapon system that may fire four times. Then the profile would have said "4 Storm Eagle Rockets", which would have had the statline "Storm Eagle Rocket: S10 AP4 Ordinance Barrage D3, One Shot Only".

In truth, this is a slightly more elegant way to handle the same setup (no unit special rules required at all this way, it's all in the weapon template) but has the side-effect of letting the Manticore continue to fire after losing weapons. Sadly, this would have made the Manticore an even BETTER choice, vaulting it out of a relatively even match for many other Heavy Support choices.

I voted option C

Only because I play it has destroying the Manticore rocket launcher, which is the weapon in my opinion, the rockets are the war gear, so have fun launching the rockets without the weapon.

puma713 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

broxus wrote:I voted option 'B', it seems pretty clear to me that they are all mutiple weapon systems.

Though, with a poll like this I dont think you will get good results you will have IG players voting one way and opponets of IG players voting the other way.

Doesn't have to be true at all. I play IG and I voted A.

^^This.

And I DON'T play IG and I voted B.