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In the SWs codex it says in Logan Grimnar's entry in a side box:

The Great Wolf
Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar

Does this means I take them in troop slots or they just count as troops for scoring?

For scoring

Interesting, I hadn't considered the second option but it certainly seems like a valid interpretation, especially given the Ork and Space Marine Codices both use a different wording as follows.

Space Marines: "If your army includes X, Y may be taken as Troops choices."

Orks: "X allows Y to be taken as a Troops choice."

My logic tells me RAI is that they can be selected as a troop choice on the FOC, because Canis Wolfborn has the same special rule regarding Fenrisian wolves, but fenrisian wolves have a special rule which prevents them from claiming objectives, meaning for them to count as a troop choice but still be taken as a fast attack unit offers absolutely no benefit.

The RAW however is not clear and could go both ways.

Well at first look at the OP's post, count as troops makes me think of troops for their objective taking ability.

I mean it doesn't say take as a troop or troop choice, but it does say count as... so yeah... if my opponent wants to take them as troops, I would not care, but hey what ever, if the game was fun that is what matters...

but as for RAI, i would say for scoring, not for taking a choice. but hey, I could be wrong

I just realised the wolves counting as a troop choice but being a fast attack choice while not allowing them to claim objectives would allow them to start on the table in Dawn of War, so maybe what I believed for the RAI isn't as solid as I thought.

Codex: SM says that Sternguard are scoring units if you take Pedro, it mentions nothing about becoming troops.

Count as troops means for all intents and purposes [ALL], they're troops. They'll be taking your troops slots, and score because of it.

idk, that is where it is really grey for me. But no argument from me if you want to use them as troops.

It says they count as troops choices. That means they are Troops Choices. If they were meant to remain elite but scoring they would have said remain elite but are scoring.

Gwar! wrote:It says they count as troops choices. That means they are Troops Choices. If they were meant to remain elite but scoring they would have said remain elite but are scoring.

Nice RAI argument there Gwar!

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It says they count as troops choices. That means they are Troops Choices. If they were meant to remain elite but scoring they would have said remain elite but are scoring.

Nice RAI argument there Gwar!

No, it is RaW. If the rule says "Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar", then they count as Troops, Take up Troop Selections on the FoC and in all respects are Troops.

If the rule says "Wolf Guard units are scoring (as though they were troops) in any army that includes Logan Grimnar", then they would remain Elite.

Here is another tricky rules question I'm having with SWs as well.

I have 4 Rune Priests in my army. All are within 24" of an enemy psyker when he attempts then succeeds a psychic test to use a power. How many dice do I roll to negate that power on a 4+? 4 or 1?

Typeline wrote:Here is another tricky rules question I'm having with SWs as well.

I have 4 Rune Priests in my army. All are within 24" of an enemy psyker when he attempts then succeeds a psychic test to use a power. How many dice do I roll to negate that power on a 4+? 4 or 1?

1: 4 Rune Priests? Overkill or a waste of points ( )
2: Depends on the power. Is it against one target or an area effect? If it's either , only the affected models need make a roll... therefore all 4 affected, it would be 4 dice.
IMHO


OT:

Counts as troops for scoring purposes only... Read up on the Crimson Fists. They have the same ruling

Crimson Fists say they are scoring units.

Logan says they count as Troops.

Big difference.

Logan's rule is the same as Ork Warbosses making nobs troops, and big meks making deff dreads count as troops [though unfortunately, the dreads still don't score cuz they're vehicles].

Spellbound wrote:Crimson Fists say they are scoring units.

Logan says they count as Troops.

Big difference.

Logan's rule is the same as Ork Warbosses making nobs troops, and big meks making deff dreads count as troops [though unfortunately, the dreads still don't score cuz they're vehicles].

I have not read the Ork Codex, as I don't possess Orks.
I do not possess the new SW Codex either, so I can't read and quote the rule.
However, by the OP's description what I said is a valid point

Crimson Fists Sternguard with Cantor counts as troops for scoring.
The same would apply to Logan

Same difference.

AdrianG wrote:I have not read the Ork Codex, as I don't possess Orks.
I do not possess the new SW Codex either, so I can't read and quote the rule.
However, by the OP's description what I said is a valid point

Crimson Fists Sternguard with Cantor counts as troops for scoring.
The same would apply to Logan

Same difference.

Firstly, if you are going to quote rules, quote them correctly.
Pedro's rule states: "Hold the Line! If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units."
Please note no mention of Troops in any way shape or form.

And lucky for you I DO have the SW Codex, and the rule says:
"Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar." (Typed verboten)

The same for Fenrisam Wolves, it says:
"Fenrisan wolves count as Troops in any army that includes Canis Wolfborn." (Typed verboten)

It does not say they remain Elites/FA and become scoring, it says they become Troops.

gwar is correct fortunately.

If logan didn't make them troops then why would it say "counts as troops" if they count as troops this would mean they take up troop slots as this is what troops do and since they count as troops they must count as troops in the FOC as well as on the table top.

Wow interesting.... wolf guard as troops... big bad wolves as troops... many many objective grabbers for the wolves eh... we are not limited to grey hunters and blood claws..interesting..

juppy wrote:Wow interesting.... wolf guard as troops... big bad wolves as troops... many many objective grabbers for the wolves eh... we are not limited to grey hunters and blood claws..interesting..

Wait it gets better:

Wolf Guard TERMINATORS as troops

Gwar:
That's just nitpickping.
Both would towards scoring units.
Holding objectives can only be done by troop choices.
Nowhere have I read in this thread that gives the impression of them being anything else.
It does not make them a troops choice for FoC does it?
Which is the whole point of the OP's question.
Which is what I was trying to answer.

That's just nitpickping.

No, it is not. You fundimentaly changed what the rules says.

Both would towards scoring units.

Yes, well done.

Holding objectives can only be done by troop choices.

No, that is not true. If it were, Pedros Sternguard could not hold an objective.

Nowhere have I read in this thread that gives the impression of them being anything else.

What? Wolf Guard who Count as Troops are not Troops? How in Russ' name can you logically justify that?

It does not make them a troops choice for FoC does it?

Yes, it does, they count as troops! Count as = Are in every way, shape or form! As long as Logan is in the Army, Wolf Guard are Troops, not Elites, because they Count as Troops! (Post Edited to remove Feeling Hurting Capitals)

Which is the whole point of the OP's question.
Which is what I was trying to answer.

Yeah, trying to answer it by not quoting actual rules and not owning any of the relevant codices, while I quote actual rules and own every single codex since the start of 3rd edition and several 2nd edition ones too. Yeah, my bad.

And this is why I usually don't bother posting in threads on this site

You want to shout do it at someone else.
I won't put up with it.

AdrianG wrote:And this is why I usually don't bother posting in threads on this site

You want to shout do it at someone else.
I won't put up with it.

Posting a few words in ALL CAPS to add emphasis is not shouting, but if I hurt your feelings, I will gladly edit my post.

Now, if you would like to post a proper argument as to why "Counts as Troops" does not mean "Counts as Troops", please, go ahead.

I think if it'd only count for scoring, then the designers would have made the text a little less misunderstandable. After having tons of characters granting specific units to be taken as troops choices, most players are bound to interpret it as taken as troop choice. So a sensibly thinking designer would either write "Wolf Guard units count as troops for the purpose of scoring and holding objectives etc. but are still taken as Elites choice" or "Wolf Guard units can score/hold objectives as if they were troops" or at least they would have added something like "Note that they still are Elites choices"

So I think RAI is them to be bought as troops.

AdrianG wrote:
2: Depends on the power. Is it against one target or an area effect? If it's either , only the affected models need make a roll... therefore all 4 affected, it would be 4 dice.

The Rune Priest, Runic Weapon reads (cutting to the relevant part): Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified.

I've been arguing that I roll as many dice to nullify as bearers of runic weapons are in range. The large gaming club (that only really dabbles in 40k) in the area is arguing that one will only roll once.

That seems to say that you can do it as much as you like.

Double post

Gwar! wrote:Firstly, if you are going to quote rules, quote them correctly.
Pedro's rule states: "Hold the Line! If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units."
Please note no mention of Troops in any way shape or form.

And lucky for you I DO have the SW Codex, and the rule says:
"Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar." (Typed verboten)

The same for Fenrisam Wolves, it says:
"Fenrisan wolves count as Troops in any army that includes Canis Wolfborn." (Typed verboten)

It does not say they remain Elites/FA and become scoring, it says they become Troops.

i don't understand why all of a sudden such a large number of 40k gamers turn into bill clinton and question the meaning of a two letter word. as stated above, they "count as troops". period. they don't count as either elites or troops, they don't count as just scoring, they don't count as troops for one thing and not another. for all intents and purposes, they ARE troops in an army with logan. there are plenty of badly written rules in GW's arsenal; this is not one of them. this is not RAI; this is RACW (rules as CLEARLY written).

p.s. gwar, i think you mean verbatim. verboten is german for forbidden. if we forbid typing, this will indeed become a dull forum.

Canis allows Fenrisian wolves to count as troops. Wolves have a special rule that makes it so they can never capture an objective. If counting as troops is for objective purposes only, Canis' special rule does nothing.

Counts as troop = they are troops.

Chinnfrequent wrote:Canis allows Fenrisian wolves to count as troops. Wolves have a special rule that makes it so they can never capture an objective. If counting as troops is for objective purposes only, Canis' special rule does nothing.

Counts as troop = they are troops.

I already dealt with this, it allows them to start on the board in Dawn of War, so while it may seem minor, it does have some effect.

Gwar! wrote:

AdrianG wrote:I have not read the Ork Codex, as I don't possess Orks.
I do not possess the new SW Codex either, so I can't read and quote the rule.
However, by the OP's description what I said is a valid point

Crimson Fists Sternguard with Cantor counts as troops for scoring.
The same would apply to Logan

Same difference.

Firstly, if you are going to quote rules, quote them correctly.
Pedro's rule states: "Hold the Line! If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units."
Please note no mention of Troops in any way shape or form.

And lucky for you I DO have the SW Codex, and the rule says:
"Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar." (Typed verboten)

The same for Fenrisam Wolves, it says:
"Fenrisan wolves count as Troops in any army that includes Canis Wolfborn." (Typed verboten)

It does not say they remain Elites/FA and become scoring, it says they become Troops.

I can't help but feel you are being a bit biased here Gwar! as it is well documented that you play Space Wolves.

to add to those quotes I would include

"If your army includes a Captain on Space Marine bike, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops choices."

and

"A warboss allows one Meganobz or Nobz mob to be taken as a Troops choice."

While I don't believe your claims are incorrect, the rule is decidedly unclear compared to these other ones. If you want to interpret it a given way that's your choice, but I think to represent it as being 100% clear which way it functions should not be done.

Also I think the word you were after was verbatim not verboten, but I'm hardly a scholar of languages so I may be incorrect.

Gets out dark angel codex...
"If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator squads may be treated as a troops choice as well as an elite choice."
Considering "treated" and "count as" are the same thing, by your argument a deathwing army is illegal.
Also why are you bringing in scoring, there is absolutely no mention of it in the rule and GW usually will write that in (Pedro). On the other hand the way it is written you cannot take them as an elite (unlike Deathwing which states they may be taken as elites and troops). This seems pretty clear as to RAI and RAW.