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ok so ill just get right into it.

p.34 Co:Orks Mob rule

... Ork mobs may always choose to SUBSTITUTE the number of orks in the mob for their normal leadership value. If an ork Mob numbers 11 models or more, it has the Fearless special rule.

pa 6 BRB: ... However no MODIFIER may raise any characteristic above 10 ...

So say that the mob numbers 25, they gain the USR, but that doesnt override the previous clause in mob rule, stating they can replace their leadership with the number of boyz in the mob, so they would take a normal leadership test However their leadership is 25 minus however many are under the blast template of the horrorfex. Having fearless doesnt change the fact that their LD is above the threshold for failure.

Also as per my page 6 quoting, it says no MODIFIER may take a characteristic above 10, however you are not modifiying your standard leadership with mob rule, you are substituting a different number over your normal leadership.

Also, nothing on page 7, leadership, or page 8 Leadership tests contradicts this.

So ... what do you think?

Horrofexes and Terrorfexes require you to pass a leadership test or become pinned.

A Pinning Test is defined thusly in the rulebook (pg 31) - "This is a normal Leadership test. If the unit fails the test it is immediately forced to go to ground."

Ork Mobs of 11 or greater are fearless. Fearless makes them immune to Pinning Tests - a Pinning Test is defined as a leadership test that, if you fail, you become pinned (aka go to ground).

Ergo a Horrorfex/Terrorfex causes a Pinning Test and the Mob is immune to it if they are fearless whether there are 11 or 30 of them.

I wish Fearless didn't prevent them.

Except ork mobs ARENT immune to horrorfexes because of the fearless usr alone, that makes you pass all morale checks and pinning checks, but a horrorfex makes you take a Leadership test, which is neither a pinning or a morale check.

Just because the end result of something is being pinned doesnt make the leadership check you took a pinning check, it was a leadership test, which if failed pins you, its raw shenanigans but its how it is.

However youre merely taking a normal leadership test in my scenario with a subtituted leadership above that of a failure threshold, as mob rule granting fearless doesnt negate the prior section referring to replacing your normal leadership with the number of orks.

edit: and actually pa. 31 brb heading pinning: If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a PINNING test, this is a normal leadership test.

The second clause this is a normal leadership test is telling you to apply the mechanics of a leadership test, i.e 2d6 vs your ld characteristic, however it is defined as a PINNING check, which is NOT a leadership test as defined by BRB. They are seperate tests.

1) Thor665 has more Experience with Dark Eldar than you have hot dinners (It's a constant of Nature).

2) Thor665 is correct.

Sorry gwar but no, and for another you have no idea of my de experiance. Quote me page numbers that say i am incorrect.

Spoilers: you wont be able to.

kill dem stunties wrote:Sorry gwar but no, and for another you have no idea of my de experiance. Quote me page numbers that say i am incorrect.

Spoilers: you wont be able to.

Protip: Thor665 is still correct.

Also Page 2, TMIR.

I win.

I fail to see how this falls into a grey area of the rules.

Sorry gwar, but if you cant even quote page numbers relevant to the discussion you probably shouldnt be posting here, instead of just mindlessly posting someone is right. That is afterall a violation of the first tenet of YMDC.

And sorry but I win actually.

This exact thing came up at a tournament I was at last weekend. What are the odds... I'd say substitute doesn't mean modify myself. Meaning Orks are both Fearless and have a LD of 30 sometimes. It comes down to undefined terms. To further argue your case, you can also note that certain weapons in the DE codex do cause Pinning checks, whereas those cause Leadership tests. It at least makes it look somewhat intentional.

Ah nice catch, i i didnt pick up on the other weapon causing a pinning check, yet more credence lent to my arguement.

The 'fexes (but not carnifexes!) cause you to take a leadership test or be pinned.

The definition for pinned, according to the faq is "forced to go to ground by failing a pinning test."

Therefore, we can substitute to create "take a leadership test or be forced to go to ground by failing a pinning test."

Since a fearless unit cannot fail a pinning test the 'fexes will not pin them.

Willy is correct. A pinning test is a leadership test to avoid being pinned.

Fearless units are immune.

Mannahnin wrote:Willy is correct. A pinning test is a leadership test to avoid being pinned.

What, I can't get top billing?

kill dem stunties wrote:Ah nice catch, i i didnt pick up on the other weapon causing a pinning check, yet more credence lent to my arguement.

And not a totally unreasonable argument. at that However, and I'll spare restating it all, as that most stylish of willys described, the description under terrorfex is simply an alternate way of saying 'pinning test.' You could probably try to argue it with a TO, but I suspect most would disagree. In the terrorfex description they say you take a test that is the exact definition of what a pinning test is. I don't support your interpretation then, that because they used the definition and not the defined rule term, that it fails to mean they meant the defined rule term.

I will agree, that if you decide DE Fexes work on fearless units that the Orks would get a substituted leadership. But I disagree that they work on fearless units so that seems a purely academic question.

You could infer the RAI all youd like, but there is a clear differentiation between pinning, morale and leadership tests in 5th ed.

Also fearless units are not immune, they simply pass all morale and pinning checks.

They are taking neither a pinning or a morale check, they are taking a leadership test which is not the same as a pinning or a morale test in 5th ed.

Thor665 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Willy is correct. A pinning test is a leadership test to avoid being pinned.

What, I can't get top billing?

You already did

Gwar! wrote:1) Thor665 has more Experience with Dark Eldar than you have hot dinners (It's a constant of Nature).

2) Thor665 is correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kill dem stunties wrote:You could infer the RAI all youd like, but there is a clear differentiation between pinning, morale and leadership tests in 5th ed.

Also fearless units are not immune, they simply pass all morale and pinning checks.

They are taking neither a pinning or a morale check, they are taking a leadership test which is not the same as a pinning or a morale test in 5th ed.

A pinning test is a Leadership test that if failed you go to ground. Same thing as the 'Fex does!

page numbers of that passage in the brb ... oh wait whats that? you're inferring that because the end result is being pinned its a pinning check, when its own codex sets precedent of distinction between the two types of tests, e.g leadership and pinning.

Until you quote passages of the rules that contradict any of that ... yea ima have to say you're sitting firmly in rai camp and straying out of RAW where you should be.im disappointed gwar lol.

kill dem stunties wrote:page numbers of that passage in the brb ... oh wait whats that? you're inferring that because the end result is being pinned its a pinning check, when its own codex sets precedent of distinction between the two types of tests, e.g leadership and pinning.

Until you quote passages of the rules that contradict any of that ... yea ima have to say you're sitting firmly in rai camp and straying out of RAW where you should be.im disappointed gwar lol.

1) Thor665 is correct. Get that into your head.
2) Page 31 BRB: "[...] Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test. If the unit fails the test, it is immediately forced to go to ground [...]"

Pinning Test = Ld Test that if failed results in GtG.

That'll be $7.99 + Tax please.

The clarification of what a unit "pinned" is in the FAQ.

If you choose not to use the FAQ then the terror or horrorfexes actually don't do anything at all.

The rulebook defines a pinning test.

It defines going to ground.

It does not define being "pinned."

So you can either use the FAQ quote that I provided, and the fact that fearlessness does not work against horror and terrorfexes.

Or you can not use the FAQ and accept that they are two pieces of wargear which have been made obsolete by edition changes.

Your choice.

I will concede fearless units are not immune, but I trust you to understand what me choosing to use that word means without me having to write out "fearless units automatically pass all pinning and morale tests" each and every time.

Let Pinning test equal X
Let the definition of a pinning test = Y

Pinning Test = a Regular Leadership test that if failed causes the unit to become pinned.

X=Y

Weapon T does Y to Unit O.
Unit O is immune to X.

X=Y.

Unit O is immune to X

I will concede there is interpretation needed, I disagree that it is a result of a lack of RAW though. (though it is how I play it).

For instance; Fearless units auto pass Pinning and Morale Tests. In the rulebook there is no such thing as a Morale Test RAW.

There is a morale check.

Sometimes RAW requires the application of context and understanding because the writers are asinine idiots and the English language is a mutt. I do not believe that this practice is unreasonable for someone who chooses to purport RAW interpretations (as I do).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:Or you can not use the FAQ and accept that they are two pieces of wargear which have been made obsolete by edition changes.

Though FAQ or no we have a ton of those.

But a well played maneuver sir, my hat's off.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Meaning Orks are both Fearless and have a LD of 30 sometimes.

Actually no, orks never have a leadership of 30, in fact, I feel safe saying that Orks never have a leadership above 10 and as such, can fail leadership tests. I am not saying the OP is right, I am just saying that the BRB states that "...no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10..." (Pg 6 BRB). At best the Ork leadership can be 10. If your TO ruled this then he is wrong RAW, but he is the TO and you should play it that way.

I agree with Thor and Willy. (Thor gets top billing this time; I just liked the way Willy expressed it before).

kill dem stunties wrote:page numbers of that passage in the brb ... oh wait whats that? you're inferring that because the end result is being pinned its a pinning check, when its own codex sets precedent of distinction between the two types of tests, e.g leadership and pinning.

Until you quote passages of the rules that contradict any of that ... yea ima have to say you're sitting firmly in rai camp and straying out of RAW where you should be.im disappointed gwar lol.

KDS, a pinning test is a type of LD lest. A sub-set. Not all dogs are Collies, but all Collies are dogs. Not all LD tests are pinning tests, but all pinning tests are LD tests.

The fact that GW has expressed the rules for a pinning test in an unusual way in the DE codex does not create a brand new, unrelated type of test that just happens to be resolved the exact same way and have the exact same result.

As Thor noted, the rules for Fearless reference “morale tests”, whereas the rule which exists in the applicable chapter is actually called a “morale check”. Trying to parse GW’s language so tightly that you cannot resolve this conflict, or that you infer “easter egg” rules situations from them, is a fundamentally unproductive exercise.

@s2: So "substitute" = "modify?" We have no way of knowing that.

Ok let me put on my rule lawyer hat here ( being 1 of 2 DE player in South Africa you become a very qualified rule lawyer)

first of all, that what the majority of what you are saying, is that because it said Leadership tests in the rule. fearless units will auto pass the test but (now here the spanner in the works) in the Fearless entry in brb pg75 "fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning test they are required to take." there is nothing about Leadership test in that ruling.

And secondly a Leadership tests is a characteristic tests like when you test to see if you hit when shooting or ws. but the way you are all using a "Leadership test" a fearless psyker will auto pass all psychic power he makes.

So now in the rules for a terrorfex is "must pass a leadership tests or become pinned". now some of you think this is the same as a pinning test brb pg 31 "it must immediately take a pinning test. this is normal Leadership test. if the unit fails the test, it is immediately forced to go to ground" now the Leadership test in the terrorfex entry is a characteristic test for the weapon now the Leadership test form the pinning entry is what you roll for a "pinning test"

thus terrorofexes can pin fearless units. and I have used this ruling in the South African Nationals and was cleared by all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

dnecro wrote:and I have used this ruling in the South African Nationals and was cleared by all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

Congratulations, you used a house rule

-Applauds-

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@s2: So "substitute" = "modify?" We have no way of knowing that.

mod⋅i⋅fy  /ˈmɒdəˌfaɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mod-uh-fahy] Show IPA verb, -fied, -fy⋅ing.

–verb (used with object) 1. to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially; amend: to modify a contract.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/modify

Yes orks modify there Leadership by substituting there Numbers.... and to get around the rule of no stat over 10 if there are 11 or more orks there fearless.... this doesnt seem to me to be anything to debate on?

Thanks,
Loredragon2

Congratulations, you used a house rule

HAZZAA! All Dark Eldar player that hate the world can come down to South Afrca. We don’t have house rule we have Country rules.

all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

If all the players in the country can fit under one roof, it's still a house rule.

Malecus wrote:

all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

If all the players in the country can fit under one roof, it's still a house rule.

Even if they fit under 2 Roofs, it's still a house rule

Gwar! wrote:

Malecus wrote:

all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

If all the players in the country can fit under one roof, it's still a house rule.

Even if they fit under 2 Roofs, it's still a house rule

Then it would be a two-house rule, unless it's a duplex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dnecro wrote:Ok let me put on my rule lawyer hat here ( being 1 of 2 DE player in South Africa you become a very qualified rule lawyer)

first of all, that what the majority of what you are saying, is that because it said Leadership tests in the rule. fearless units will auto pass the test but (now here the spanner in the works) in the Fearless entry in brb pg75 "fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning test they are required to take." there is nothing about Leadership test in that ruling.

And secondly a Leadership tests is a characteristic tests like when you test to see if you hit when shooting or ws. but the way you are all using a "Leadership test" a fearless psyker will auto pass all psychic power he makes.

So now in the rules for a terrorfex is "must pass a leadership tests or become pinned". now some of you think this is the same as a pinning test brb pg 31 "it must immediately take a pinning test. this is normal Leadership test. if the unit fails the test, it is immediately forced to go to ground" now the Leadership test in the terrorfex entry is a characteristic test for the weapon now the Leadership test form the pinning entry is what you roll for a "pinning test"

thus terrorofexes can pin fearless units. and I have used this ruling in the South African Nationals and was cleared by all the rule lawyers in my country under one roof.

And just to exemplify my previous point: please tell me the rule from the rulebook that tells me what "become pinned" means. Quotes would be necessary.

roofs

we also play games outside so whats that???

dnecro wrote:

roofs

we also play games outside so whats that???

Congratulations you made a house rule for the entire planet!