Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.




The SM Gate of Infinity psychic power rules say (SM codex, pg 57): "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules. if the librarian travels alone, there is no risk, but if he takes a unit with him, there is a chance something will go wrong. if the deep strike attempt scatters and a double is rolled, one member of the unit, chosen by the controlling player, is claimed by the warp and removed as a casualty(the survivors scatter normally)."


The Movement Phase rules say (rulebook, pg 11): "MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT: Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."


The Assault Phase: Pile-In rules say (rulebook, pg 40): "When a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."


The Deep Strike rules say (rulebook, pg 95): "In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

and:

"In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."


SIMILAR TYPES OF RULES IN OTHER CODEXES PRESENTED FOR CONTEXT:

The Veil of Darkness rule says (Necron Codex, pg 15): "A Necron Lord can use a Veil of Darkness at the start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Necron Lord and up to one unit of Necrons (specifically Immortals, Flayed Ones, Warriors, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers or Wraiths) within 6" of it are removed from the tabletop and both are then immediately placed back together anywhere on the tabletop using the Deep Strike Rules. They Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (the enemy models are left behind)."


The Skyleap rule says (Eldar Codex, pg 35): "With a great shout, the Exarch and his squad launch high into the sky. The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its Movement Phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move. The squad may then Deep Strike back into play from their following turn, exactly as if they had been held in reserve from the beginning of the game (even in missions that do not allow Deep Strike or reserves). For Example, if they are removed from the table on turn 2, they will re-enter play on turn 3 on the roll of a 3+."

The [insert proper name here] Weirdboy psychic power rules say (Ork Codex, pg 37): "Weirdboys cannot control their psychic powers. At the beginning of each Ork Shooting Phase, a Weirdboy must roll on the following table to find out which psychic power he must use that turn. Weirdboys must take a Psychic test before determining the power they use.

...5- 'Ere We Go: The Weirdboy closes his eyes tight and, in a storm of green light, teleports his unit to another part of the battlefield. The weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the board as per the Deep Strike rules. This power must be used even if enemy models are in base contact; if so the enemy models stay in place."


QUESTION: If a Librarian and the unit he is joined to are locked in combat at the start of their turn do you play that the Librarian can use 'Gate of Infinity' to leave combat?



OPTION A. Yes he can.


OPTION B. No he cannot.


OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

Even though i would lean more towards them being able to use the power while in a combat, as they are removed before they deep strike, i do think quoting the deep strike "any further" and "obviously count as having moved" parts would better explain why you're including movement rules (in relation to combat) in this.

I know, but it is a poll about how you play, and if people don't think Deep Strike is movement then so be it!

That's an excuse not to include the rule? I don't recall people arguing that Deep Strike isn't movement in the thread that i assume prompted the poll, only that they're removed before they deep strike (although i did stop reading after the first or second page). To me, a poll that mentions only the movement rule (for whatever reason) is going to get different votes to one that shows all relevant rules. You used to think the deepstrike bit was relevant.

Ridcully wrote:That's an excuse not to include the rule? I don't recall people arguing that Deep Strike isn't movement in the thread that i assume prompted the poll, only that they're removed before they deep strike (although i did stop reading after the first or second page). To me, a poll that mentions only the movement rule (for whatever reason) is going to get different votes to one that shows all relevant rules. You used to think the deepstrike bit was relevant.

Oh, I do think they're relevant, but just that they kind of don't make complete sense without the argument behind them.

But I suppose you're right: including those rule quotes can't hurt (so I've done it).

Ridcully wrote:That's an excuse not to include the rule? I don't recall people arguing that Deep Strike isn't movement in the thread that i assume prompted the poll, only that they're removed before they deep strike (although i did stop reading after the first or second page). To me, a poll that mentions only the movement rule (for whatever reason) is going to get different votes to one that shows all relevant rules. You used to think the deepstrike bit was relevant.

Yes, but the movement rules say, "Units locked in combat may not move during the movement phase." Not, "Models locked in combat may not move during the movement phase unless they are removed from combat first."

They were locked in combat, ergo they can not move that phase. What happens in between is irrelevant.

Yakface is correct, for the deepstrike rules to be relevant, you would have to be arguing that deepstriking is not movement, which is an argument I have heard.

I voted B, as both other similar rules specifically say they they allow removal from combat. GoI does not.

whocares wrote:Yakface is correct, for the deepstrike rules to be relevant, you would have to be arguing that deepstriking is not movement, which is an argument I have heard.

Are you saying that the movement/combat are only considered relevant because people are arguing that you CAN move while locked in combat? That's not what they're arguing. They're relevant because they're involved in the question.

The question should be phrased with an abundance of information, so voters realize (as at least one person just did in the last thread) that deep strike is movement and that you can't move while in combat.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:I voted B, as both other similar rules specifically say they they allow removal from combat. GoI does not.

Are you saying that Skyleap doesn't work in combat? It never grants permission to be 'removed' out of cc, only what happens when you do so.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:I voted B, as both other similar rules specifically say they they allow removal from combat. GoI does not.

Are you saying that Skyleap doesn't work in combat? It never grants permission to be 'removed' out of cc, only what happens when you do so.

And VoD grants permission while saying nothing about the enemy getting to consolidate. At least GoI says nothing on both points which is why I voted B.

Hey guys,

There is another thread currently open if you want to actually argue your points.

Feel free to post why you voted the way you did if you like, but don't engage other people on why you think their reasoning is wrong.

I voted yes because it seems to me that the movement happens after they are removed from the table and therefore out of combat.

This has come up a few times in games I've played. We always argue that no he cannot, as the eldar & necron similar abilities explicitly state that he can so we feel if that's how it was intended that's how it would have been included.

Voted for Option A. GoI is, in my view, a psychic power that can be used at a specific time (start of movement) and allows you to reposition the unit using the deep strike rules. Psychic power use is not movement.

I changed my answer based on skyleap. It never gives permission to be removed from combat yet obviously allows it. Meaning, imo, that being removed from the table is not considered movement.

Sure why not? Seems like he would be able to similar to Necron and Eldar abilities.

whocares wrote:the movement rules say, "Units locked in combat may not move during the movement phase." Not, "Models locked in combat may not move during the movement phase unless they are removed from combat first."

They were locked in combat, ergo they can not move that phase. What happens in between is irrelevant.

Yakface is correct, for the deepstrike rules to be relevant, you would have to be arguing that deepstriking is not movement, which is an argument I have heard.

I said "No", largely for the above reasons.
The exceptions to this are at least written with implication - like Skyleap.

PanzerLeader wrote:Voted for Option A. GoI is, in my view, a psychic power that can be used at a specific time (start of movement) and allows you to reposition the unit using the deep strike rules. Psychic power use is not movement.

Neither is embarking; does that mean you can embark out of a combat?

Voted "NO". GoI does not give explicit exception like Veil and Skyleap.

Saldiven wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Voted for Option A. GoI is, in my view, a psychic power that can be used at a specific time (start of movement) and allows you to reposition the unit using the deep strike rules. Psychic power use is not movement.

Neither is embarking; does that mean you can embark out of a combat?

Embarking occurs in the movement phase and is part of normal movement and subject to all of its restrictions. I interpret GoI using the rules for psychic powers. Essentially, I see GoI as at start of movement, take psychic test. If passed, do following steps: (1) remove all affected models from play, (2) nominate a point on the board, (3) place affected models back into play using "Deepstrike" special rules.

Timmah wrote:I changed my answer based on skyleap. It never gives permission to be removed from combat yet obviously allows it. Meaning, imo, that being removed from the table is not considered movement.

I would argue that it does when it states "If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move."

PanzerLeader wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Voted for Option A. GoI is, in my view, a psychic power that can be used at a specific time (start of movement) and allows you to reposition the unit using the deep strike rules. Psychic power use is not movement.

Neither is embarking; does that mean you can embark out of a combat?

Embarking occurs in the movement phase and is part of normal movement and subject to all of its restrictions. I interpret GoI using the rules for psychic powers. Essentially, I see GoI as at start of movement, take psychic test. If passed, do following steps: (1) remove all affected models from play, (2) nominate a point on the board, (3) place affected models back into play using "Deepstrike" special rules.

Actually, that's kind of immaterial, as GoI happens in the movement phase, too. The only place where embarkation is referenced is in the Vehicle section of the rulebook, and no mention is made as to whether or not all the normal movement rules apply. This is important, as this is the only place in the main rules where models are "removed from the board" where they are not counted as casualties (such as from shooting, assault, or routing off the board). Secondly, models are not removed from play, they are "removed from the board" and "immediately" replaced on the table. I won't go further here, but direct people to the other thread to see all the issues surrounding the whole "removed from the board" wording and how muddy it makes issues across the game.

A-P wrote: Voted "NO". GoI does not give explicit exception like Veil and Skyleap.

I also voted no, for this ^ reason.

As stated in the GoI rules thread, I'm going with 'Yes' because -
- The assault rules only forbid moving while locked in combat. Once the unit is removed from the table, they're no longer locked in combat. So the fact that Deep Strike counts as moving doesn't matter... they're not trying to move while locked in combat.
and
- Skyleap doesn't specifically grant permission to remove them from combat either, but tells you what happens if you do so... suggesting that they felt that it should be possible even without a rule specifically allowing it.

YMMV.

Not to double post but I'm curious on the "NO" argument perspective based on what I've posted here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/263520.page#1094825

I voted yes, as I believe it was intended to be used as skyleap. GW is just a bit sloppy sometimes with the way they write rules.
Anyway, i would certainly allow it.

Krilau wrote:GW is just a bit sloppy sometimes with the way they write rules.

Sometimes??

SOMETIMES???????????????

No, doesn't say you can.

Gwar! wrote:

Krilau wrote:GW is just a bit sloppy sometimes with the way they write rules.

Sometimes??

SOMETIMES???????????????

Well i didn't want to start a discussion about GW rules writing, that's why I toned down the sentence a bit. You're right off course Gwar! as always.

I voted for option A.

G