Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have to say, this is a rather impressive list. Not just in the amount of firepower (at individual targets nonetheless) it can bring to the field, but also for its speed, flexibility, and less fat to trim than a 64 straight minutes of 8 minute Abs.

2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster - Maximum Overdrive

1 Rune Priest in Power Armour w/Chooser of the Slain; Tempest's Wrath; Thunderclap.

2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
2 Wolf Guard in Power Armour w/ Combi-Meltagun x2 w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)
5 Grey Hunters w/ Flamer w/1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)
1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)
1 Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.
1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 2 Long Fangs w/Missile Launchers, Squad Leader in Rhino.

Total Roster Cost: 1997

26 Kill Points, ~50 Marines, 15 vehicles, 12 Missile Launchers, 9 Lascannons, 9 T/L Plasma guns, 6 flamers, 6 combi meltas

No need to get incredibly specific on your list details, but post a balanced list and general tactics to have at least an even shot of beating this one.

If you do try to attack its one big weakness (Kill Points), you have to do so with a list that 1. won't get tabled on turn 6 and 2. won't get smashed out of existence by Vulkan, LRCs, AssTerms, and 6+ heavy flamers. Bonus points if you can win regardless of first turn/second turn.

the eldar dual seer council list floating around this forum would have its way this with this list. nothing to cause enough wounds to reliably kill a fortune-council before they are all up in your face with multiple hits from s9 weapons.

biker marines probably could deal with it as well, turbo boost up a flank, strike him hard at a side, use the wreckage as cover, and work your way across his army.

basically, any army able to field VERY FAST troops to get up in his face turn 1, turn 2 at the latest, would rock him. scout bikers would be amazing as well, because they are cheap, can get a first turn charge, and a las/plas/missile hit will kill one just the same as a normal marine, but for cheaper. If he's spending time moving his vehicles 12" to keep from being blown up, remember he's not shooting... and you probably have melta guns to deal with him.

russ heavy guard might be able to deal as well... chimera vet spam lists would be crushed, firepower of this magnitude cannot be repelled.

drop pod marine armies I could see doing very well against this as well... like all drop pod armies.

Fortune will not be guaranteed with a 4+ nullify in effect. One bad round and the Seer Council is screwed. Find a way to put two Rune Priests in, and the eldar are in for a bad day.

ah, I forgot about the rune priest

ok, well then remove eldar from my list of armies that can deal with this

Horst wrote:the eldar dual seer council list floating around this forum would have its way this with this list. nothing to cause enough wounds to reliably kill a fortune-council before they are all up in your face with multiple hits from s9 weapons.

Runic staff shuts off Fortune, and one entire council dies in a single shooting phase. For the record, a single broadside from just the Razorbacks would kill between 6 and 10 un-fortuned Bike Seers. That's *just* the razorbacks. The other relatively intact council would get dogpiled by the disembarked Grey Hunters until Runic staff shuts off the second Fortune, and they're gradually attritioned away.

It's not a terrible option, but Runic Staff is a monstrous pimp slap to 1200 points of the dual Council list. One bad roll distribution could literally see half your army disappear in a single shooting phase (i.e. opponent gets first turn, or beats Fortune).

Anyone able to beat down a bunch of rhinos reliably in one turn can probably beat this list, focus fire on one side, then turn and start shooting at the other side. The key is to be able to break as many razorbacks in one turn as possible, then spend the rest of the game running away from the wolf guard and shooting down the grey hunters.

Tau and the 45 loota ork build could probably do it. Backing up the transport poppers would be lots of troops, for tau these would be fishes of Fury, and for orks this would be a TON of shootaboyz. (Tau of course need markerlight support, which probably limits their effectiveness) The ork list would get murdered by heavy flamers and flamers, but if they can break the transports and shoot down the land speeders, they can probably win.

Use Stelek's other razor list on it, hehe.

Seriously, you'd need some way to shake/cripple/destroy a whole bunch of razorbacks reliably, and at range, without getting shot to pieces. Anything that has to get close to kill light tanks is going to die to the 50 guys inside the following turn.

All the answers I can think of so far depend on alpha strikes and a lot of luck--which is no answer at all.

The only weakness I can see is that, in a standoff shootout beyond range 24", he's pretty much limited to the 9 lascannons on the razors and the 6 missiles on the typhoons (unless the long fangs are outside their transports too? Is that part of the army's tactics). And when the razors move, they lose firepower. But that's not much to go on.

Flavius Infernus wrote:(unless the long fangs are outside their transports too? Is that part of the army's tactics)

Rhinos have fire points, I assume those rhinos are going to be just bunkers for the long fangs to pop off missile shots from. Another razor list could probably beat it, or a dark eldar list with enough lances, however, that rune priest has the Tempests Fury power, I believe that is the one that can give cover saves to vehicles, making them last a bit longer (I could be wrong though, a rhino train can be bypassed IF your fast enough)

I think the eldar list would do fine. All they need to do is start out of range of the rune priest's staff. It only works on powers cast within 24". Deploy on opposite corners of the board, he MIGHT be within 24" of ONE. Then turbo-boost them forward in the enemy's face. Everyone has a 3+ re-rollable cover save. Next turn sure, he might shut down one of the powers. MIGHT. Statistically he'll get one of the two each time. That means each turn, one of the squads is a deadly unkillable thing of death, and the other is just kind of tough. But it may be in combat with multiple units, etc. If the rest of the army can reliably kill some razorbacks at range, you could have several units out of their transports and getting multi-charged. Just one needs to pass their morale test to stay put. Plus if they attack opposite ends of the board, it's unlikely any one unit has enough firepower being put on it to really cause the casualties necessary to get through the saves. That and the runepriest will only be in cancellation range of one unit at a time, meaning now only 25% of the time it's being cancelled [assuming they always pass the psychic test, which is only USUALLY the case].

A 9-wave serpent list with all scatter laser wave serpents could do well too, with 9 2x Scatter laser warwalkers. They'll do a fine job of popping tanks at an alarming rate, and fairly reliably at LEAST shutting down their shooting. And on the plus side they can table most other armies too.

Spellbound wrote:I think the eldar list would do fine. All they need to do is start out of range of the rune priest's staff. It only works on powers cast within 24". Deploy on opposite corners of the board, he MIGHT be within 24" of ONE. Then turbo-boost them forward in the enemy's face. Everyone has a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

Thing is, "all" he has to do is move his razorbacks 12" and smoke. Now you're hitting very few times in CC and are almost assuredly within 24" of the Rune Priest on your next turn with both -- or too far away with one to matter. Then it's simply MSU scissors units against your now-vulnerable Big Rock unit. The 12-48" threat range 'Backs and Marines inside are simply too potent for non-Fortune non-power weapon Seer Councils to deal with.

I think Eldar could put a competing list together, but dual council doesn't seem to be the way to go.

a 9 broadside tau list could do it...

all broadsides with target locks and shield drones.


Don't swear on Dakka please ! Ta.

I haven't really sat down and mused on it that much... but the matchup between chimeras versus laserbacks seems pretty favorable to the chimera (quick math, multi-lasers get penetrating hits slightly more often versus armor 11 than twin linked lascannons get versus armor 12. Significantly more glances as well)

I have been screwing armound with a veteran free semi mech list IG list. It's all 48" range, its all really good at killing armor 11, and there might be enough of it to outshoot this thing.

CCS 4x melta chimera

8x PBS chimera

PCS 4x flamer chimera
infantry squad autocannon chimera
nfantry squad autocannon chimera

PCS 4x flamer chimera
infantry squad commissar
infantry squad
infantry squad

vendetta with heavy bolters

vendetta with heavy bolters

3x hydra

manticore

manticore

Almost everything that is purchased has 48" range and excellent shots versus razorback/rhinos. Thats a 1750 list, so lets just add one more vendetta with heavy bolters and one more infantry squad with autocannon in a chimera to make 13 seperate armor 12 entities shooting at 15 armor 11/10 entities. Going first is clearly important. But I give myself the edge here.


Now, theoryhammer can not accurately cover the interactions against a 2k cav demon army either. If you were arguing for the laserback army, you'd just factor in your dice, given unobstructed line of sight and no range discrepancies.

I would imagine with one substantial terrain piece that could block some LOS, this list is looking at a potential of around 8 turn two charges (or 9 if you can fit that 17th unit in the list). The theory game is much cleaner than what would actually happen. 2 units of corn dogs, 3 units of fiends and 3-4 furious charge unholy strength slaanesh chariots would all land on turn 1... they'd be about 20" away from the line, and crashing a flank. thats about 70 wounds, maybe in cover, that you might not have complete LOS to... and perhaps some of the outside edge units in the deployment wouldn't have range (although that is likely the speeders, and they are likely to have full range).

Now, I certainly am not calling this one for the demons, but the game would undoubtedly get messy, the flatness of your lines would need to get adjusted, and you'll really have to play a balancing act to move enough to not get hit in CC. while being slow enough to keep a critical amount of firepower available.

That's all thats coming to me right now.

starbomber109 wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:(unless the long fangs are outside their transports too? Is that part of the army's tactics)

Rhinos have fire points, I assume those rhinos are going to be just bunkers for the long fangs to pop off missile shots from.

Ooops, I misread and thought the fangs were in razorbacks too. Yep, so that does mean the longfangs get to shoot from the start too.

Spellbound wrote:Then turbo-boost them forward in the enemy's face. Everyone has a 3+ re-rollable cover save.

You can't use psychic powers and turbo-boost in the same turn (unless you meant that the farseer would cast fortune on the warlocks and then separate from the unit before it boosts, which is a problem in the following turn).


What about a mechdar list based on massed str6 firepower? Especially falcon-based with the odd str8 shot thrown in? This is a spot where shrieker jetbikes with their 6" jumpback assault move might actually be useful? Could an army like that muster firepower comparable to Shep's non-vet mech guard?

sourclams wrote:
Thing is, "all" he has to do is move his razorbacks 12" and smoke. Now you're hitting very few times in CC and are almost assuredly within 24" of the Rune Priest on your next turn with both -- or too far away with one to matter. Then it's simply MSU scissors units against your now-vulnerable Big Rock unit. The 12-48" threat range 'Backs and Marines inside are simply too potent for non-Fortune non-power weapon Seer Councils to deal with.

I think Eldar could put a competing list together, but dual council doesn't seem to be the way to go.

Hitting 1/6 attacks that are almost guaranteed to penetrate? I'll take that. Plus a lot of that army is Ld 8, so several units will be pinned once they get out. And if he's moved 12" and done zero damage, that's a turn where I don't even need to waste turbo-boosting. I'll just charge first turn, and now we're in the thick of it.

Auto-win? No, but I think it'd do alright. Enough to make sure he doesn't bring a razorback-spam list again.

A necron army would do well versus that list, too. Heck even the 9 tome spyder army would do fine. Lascannons and plasma hit scarab swarms that are part of spyder units, which are going to be getting cover saves easily from any sort of terrain. Nothing to handle them in cc, and the troops are recycled through monoliths. 6 lascannons isn't enough to reliably take down multiple monoliths, and with orb and lith rerolls, those heavy weapons won't be forcing a phaseout anytime soon.

Horst wrote:a 9 broadside tau list could do it...

all broadsides with target locks and shield drones.

beat that, you trout sniffing bastard!

You don't 'need' nine if they all have target lock, you only need 6 (IIRC, only one model can shoot something else)

Edit: I just realized that this would give you an army with 6 railguns that can all shoot at different targets, add in some crisis suits and you can (in theory) pop every single razorback in one round of shooting.

26 KP. Intense. I like the list name most of all, MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE.

Shep wrote:
Now, theoryhammer can not accurately cover the interactions against a 2k cav demon army either. If you were arguing for the laserback army, you'd just factor in your dice, given unobstructed line of sight and no range discrepancies.

Interesting that you bring this one up because it's the first list that popped into my head to beat the Lasback Wolves. It's such a monstrously specific type of list, though, and still suffers with Daemon inability to deal with AV14 on any regular basis. I agree with you, this is probably a more viable choice, but I honestly don't think I'd consider it a true generalist list, either.

Strackenblob Guard list could probably do it, especially if you knew it was coming and switched your meltas for grenade launchers. Just have to avoid taking too much damage from flamers.

In general a swarm list would probably do fine.

ketsugami wrote:Strackenblob Guard list could probably do it, especially if you knew it was coming and switched your meltas for grenade launchers. Just have to avoid taking too much damage from flamers.

In general a swarm list would probably do fine.

I'm not seeing why a swarm would "do fine." Maybe better than a list that relies on elite models, but 12 frag missiles is a lot of anti-infantry, then when you get close, the list would clean up with flamers and bolter fire.

I don't know if las cannons and 6 flamers would be enough to deal with 180 KFF Orks. Six units of Orks fire 18 rockets...which is six hits/turn after turn 1, 4ish glances/pens. Not that anyone really runs the 180 Ork boy horde now but anyways...that would likely fail your pre-reqs .

AgeOfEgos wrote:I don't know if las cannons and 6 flamers would be enough to deal with 180 KFF Orks. Six units of Orks fire 18 rockets...which is six hits/turn after turn 1, 4ish glances/pens. Not that anyone really runs the 180 Ork boy horde now but anyways...that would likely fail your pre-reqs .

Frag missiles???

willydstyle wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I don't know if las cannons and 6 flamers would be enough to deal with 180 KFF Orks. Six units of Orks fire 18 rockets...which is six hits/turn after turn 1, 4ish glances/pens. Not that anyone really runs the 180 Ork boy horde now but anyways...that would likely fail your pre-reqs .

Frag missiles???

12 missiles
4 directs covering 3 each---12 hits----6 wounds----4ish dead Orks

Other 8 that scatter, say all still hit 2----16 hits----8 wounds----5ish dead Orks


So all that missile fire will kill 9 Orks, provided you get the statistical average of 4 directs (all of which can hit 3 Orks each) and all of the 8 remaining scatters still hit 2 Orks.

3 Heavy Bolters
12 shots----6 hits----4 wounds----2-3ish dead Orks

9 Las Cannons
9 shots----6 hits----5 wounds----3-4ish dead Orks


So, given all of that, if an Ork goes second and sets up 25+ inches away and the opposing player focuses on the front unit only (As the back units will grant better saves) he'll lose 15-20ish Orks. Again though, 180 foot Ork w/ KFF doesn't meet all of the OP requirements.


/I'm not doing distribution tables for all of those hits, just quick average math

It's been my experience that when you have that many infantry on the field, they must necessarily bunch up, and you actually get closer to 5-7 hits with a small blast that lands on target, but you're also much more likely to get hits from scattering blasts.

Whenever I play my 6 EML war-walker squadron against horde armies I seem to average 18-24 hits from just that one unit.

You're also not taking into account BS 4 significantly increasing the chance that a missile will land directly on target.

I don't think your model works well for determining blast damage against a true horde army.

willydstyle wrote:It's been my experience that when you have that many infantry on the field, they must necessarily bunch up, and you actually get closer to 5-7 hits with a small blast that lands on target, but you're also much more likely to get hits from scattering blasts.

Whenever I play my 6 EML war-walker squadron against horde armies I seem to average 18-24 hits from just that one unit.

You're also not taking into account BS 4 significantly increasing the chance that a missile will land directly on target.

I don't think your model works well for determining blast damage against a true horde army.

^^ You get 7 hits with a small blast and BS 4 significantly increases your chances to get a direct hit? Well I can't argue with that

Can all the Long Fangs fire from the Rhino's "1" fire point?

Tau
2 3 Man Crisis suits w/ mixed armament but 1 target lock and 2 drones w/ Twin Missile Pods

300

1 5 man Pirahna with Fusion blasters Target Lock.
380

10 Twinlinked Drone at ST5 included with that

5 to 6 dead vehicles a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau
2 3 Man Crisis suits w/ mixed armament but 1 target lock and 2 drones w/ Twin Missile Pods
12 ST 7 shots that can fire at 3 different targets
300

1 5 man Pirahna with Fusion blasters Target Lock Disruption.
24 inch 5 St8 shots that can fire at 5 seperate targets
380
plus the
10 Twinlinked Drone at ST5 included with that

5 to 6 dead vehicles a turn.

whitedragon wrote:Can all the Long Fangs fire from the Rhino's "1" fire point?

2 Fangs can fire through the port and split fire if need be. I've mulled over it for my heavy as well, here's the comparison

2 Fangs w/ ML in a rhino = 100 points at AV 11
Predator w/ Twin Linked Las = 105 points at AV 13
Predator w/ Auto-cannon + Hvy Bolter = 85 points at AV 13

To each their own, but I prefer the Preds.

It's not just that 'a horde' could do well against this list....it really can't, the Razorbacks allow too much mobility and the grey hunters inside are too good at burning (and then probably assaulting, or even eating a charge with the counter-attack) It has to be a horde that can break the Razorbacks at range, then still stand it's ground in an assault. A guardian blob list like the one Blackmor ran at a tournament a while back might be able to do it. A guardsmen blob (or even mech-guard, just with autocannon teams too. they could do it by shear weight of tanks. "Hey! I have 9 tanks too! And they all have better front armor than yours!") might also be able to win the shootout.

If the horde of infantry and such can break the razorbacks open at range, then they've got the grey-hunters where they want them, on foot, and just as fast as they are. The infantry horde itself defeats the lascannon, the infantry's artillery support breaks the tanks carrying the anti-infantry weapons before they can strike, and their artillery also works to stun/shake the long-fang rhinos in the back. Breaking them open, immobilizing them, destroying the storm bolter, these aren't good results, you want to wreck, stun, or shake it. Guardsmen and Guardians have perfect weapons for this job. Even a mob of Ork boyz has a pretty good gun for it (not the best, but 9 S5 shots from one unit is a lot of dakka), and said gun has enough range to do the job.

Thats only 680 points target the rune priest and if you go first devastate the whole goddamn army he isn't going to be hiding anywhere.

Also
razorbacks can only fire the twin plasma and lascannon if they do not move if they move one or the other.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

willydstyle wrote:It's been my experience that when you have that many infantry on the field, they must necessarily bunch up, and you actually get closer to 5-7 hits with a small blast that lands on target, but you're also much more likely to get hits from scattering blasts.

Whenever I play my 6 EML war-walker squadron against horde armies I seem to average 18-24 hits from just that one unit.

You're also not taking into account BS 4 significantly increasing the chance that a missile will land directly on target.

I don't think your model works well for determining blast damage against a true horde army.

^^ You get 7 hits with a small blast and BS 4 significantly increases your chances to get a direct hit? Well I can't argue with that

The winky orkmoticon makes me think that you doubt my statement. If that is so, I'd like to know why you doubt it.

Your standard gaming table is 72" wide. A model's base is pretty damnd close to 1" wide. 180 models take up a lot of space. You're not going to spread your models evenly through your deployment zone or your opponent will just play the denied flank and won't have to worry about killing all of your army, just the ones on his 1/4 of the board.

It's possible to get more than 7 hits from a small blast.

Also, since you subtract your BS from the scatter roll, any hits (1/3 chance) plus any 2,3,4 rolled on the distance dice (an extra 1/6 chance) means there's actually about a 50% chance for a BS 4 frag missile to land on target.