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About the faq: they are all located in an easy to find place, and with internet access could be confirmed rather quickly. Where is the official GW or forgeworld FAQ? Its all over the place. How do I know that that land raider has 5 hull points for some reason. How do I know its not doctored documentation unless I also own or have read the book? How do I know a book made in 2002 is the most recent, im not going to pirate all the imperial armor and other official books to check on someones obscure rule. At my local store, if I don't have the codex, there it is on the wall. AND they always get a copy of digital codexes, and make them available to anyone to fact check.
Faq cheating is 10x harder than just printing out some doctored sheets of forgeworld items that may just fudge the points cost, or adjust the stats ever so slightly. Mabye higher leadership for a group, maybe that flyer has ceramite plating and I just missed it when I happened to scan across it on the net.
That and just MMMABBBYYEEE I am I am disillusioned by the fact the ONLY forgeworld units that seem to show up in my area are closer in stupid to the rvanna, than some of the more reasonable units. Forgeworld is a bad word in my area, and the definition in the dictionary is player who pays to win with rules that are made purely to sell models.
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
Are you also seriously arguing that FW somehow upsets the delicate balance of 40k in a competitive sense? With 2++ re-rollable deathstars, wave serpents with 4+ cover everywhere, and Tau in general; yet you claim FW would ruin 40k's balance. I hope you acknowledge that current codices are incredibly unbalanced and have beyond broken/OP combinations available without FW.
I can't speak for Orock, but I personally think that the current codexes are reasonably balanced. And that not all of the Forgeworld offerings are. This seems to be a fairly divisive issue amongst people. Hmm. I wonder how the numbers shake out on that. Now I'm curious as to WHO is in the minority opinion on that...
Really? The codices are balanced? Name the last major tournament where you saw Orks by themselves take 1st place (hint:your gonna have to look back at least a year if I remember correctly). If the codices were balanced we would see all the races taking 1st at a variety of tournaments and not just a select few races on top (eldar tau daemons crons)
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
In case anyone hasn't seen it, here's what Aaron Dembski-Bowden had to say on the official status of Forgeworld here. Summarised/paraphrased quote copied from here.
Spoiler:
from the Comment Section of the article aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 5:41 AM It's been official since forever. People have always taken polite phrasing to justify their incorrect opinions on what's official.
To GW, it's all official, and always has been, Like it or not, that's the literal truth. To see it being heralded now as something new to adapt to (or worse, that it's still not official) is the very definition of missing the point.
aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 5:44 AM I just gave myself PTSD flashbacks to the time I foolishly tried to explain that simple policy to 3++. Oh, the rage. Oh, the resistance.
aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 7:04 AM That's the thing. GW has released that statement, but the fanbase mistake it as "Forge World is a different company, so they don't count."
GW have released the statement countless times. With the 40K Approved stamps. With Forge World stuff being on almost every page and in almost every army in White Dwarf for months. With every Imperial Armour book since #2 saying "Consider these official, but be nice if an opponent hasn't read the rules, so ask permission." Because of that misunderstanding becoming so entrenched, FW changed it in recent updates to "inform your opponent you're using these rules" with no "ask" at all.
That's how GW chose to release the statement. It's the same as Black Library being canon. To GW, it's all the same, it's all canon, it's all official. But because people apply their misunderstandings to how the company functions, you get this meme about needing "GW" to release a statement.
They did. They have. It's clear as day. People just don't realise what GW is, and take their misconceptions as truth.
In response to please find some way to get GW to make some comment somewhere public to this effect
aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 8:26 AM They have, though. That's the point. The company's made it abundantly clear. "GW" has made the comment through every avenue it's chosen: it's plain across White Dwarf; it's mentioned on Forge World's Facebook page every time it's asked; it's at every single signing and seminar and open day from countless staff in every department; it's in every single Forge World rulebook... FW *are* GW. The Black Library is GW. The "separate company" thing is massively misunderstood.
People set the boundary on this themselves, saying "I think the company works like X because I believe Internet Meme Y" so they start on incorrect foundations, and then move on to "The only way I'll be convinced is if GW issue a statement". GW *has*, countless times. People just choose not to believe the parts of the company that actually communicate with the public, and insist a statement must come from some mythical entity that doesn't actually exist.
Clever stuff, really. To set the goal lines in a place the other side of the argument (and the truth) will never reach. It's no different from saying that you'll only believe in dinosaurs if God sits you down personally and tells you they were real. The fossils and other evidence isn't good enough, but that's all reality will provide, because that's how the Earth works.
aarondembskibowden October 31, 2013 at 7:08 AM I think the biggest misunderstanding is the triumvirate of "companies" that make up GW.
They're just departments, in the same building. Their designers all go to the same range meetings. Their top brass all talk, all plan, all discuss stuff.
There's a lot more communication than people seem to believe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 23:25:26
Are you also seriously arguing that FW somehow upsets the delicate balance of 40k in a competitive sense? With 2++ re-rollable deathstars, wave serpents with 4+ cover everywhere, and Tau in general; yet you claim FW would ruin 40k's balance. I hope you acknowledge that current codices are incredibly unbalanced and have beyond broken/OP combinations available without FW.
I can't speak for Orock, but I personally think that the current codexes are reasonably balanced. And that not all of the Forgeworld offerings are. This seems to be a fairly divisive issue amongst people. Hmm. I wonder how the numbers shake out on that. Now I'm curious as to WHO is in the minority opinion on that...
Really? The codices are balanced? Name the last major tournament where you saw Orks by themselves take 1st place (hint:your gonna have to look back at least a year if I remember correctly). If the codices were balanced we would see all the races taking 1st at a variety of tournaments and not just a select few races on top (eldar tau daemons crons)
Funny, we only have one Orks player locally, and he's taken first in every tournament I've ever seen him play in. The last tourney we had here saw Space Wolves clinch the victory, and the last one before that (which was before the 6th Ed Space Marine Codex dropped) was Space Marines.
The prevalence of the newest Codex in high-ranking positions at national tournaments (which is what I assume you were referring to) is not, I think, due to the codex being unbalanced, it's due to it being new. Experience is the greatest deciding factor in this game, and the newest codex is always going to occupy a strong position, since it's the one that people will have a deficit of play experience against. This leads to a misconception that these codexes are unfair or unbalanced, when they really aren't.
ClockworkZion wrote:Personally, at least with what I post I feel you're misreading it. I think people shouldn't need to be, bargin or plead to be able to play their cool toys. I feel that the current attitude of "no Forgeworld for anyone ever" is poisonious and shuts down creative thinking, freedom and the chance to really see what this game is.
See, and there we go with the radicalisation again. It may well be that some people are argueing "no FW ever". At the same time there is a large group of people - like me - who are like "just ask, mkay?", but instead of even making this miniscule distinction you throw any and all critics into a big box ... but then go on to complain when somebody does the same to the "pro-FW crowd".
This is why we can't have nice things.
"Radicalism". Christ, this is why people can't agree on things, because people want to sit there and point fingers and name call.
People can, do, and have said that they think FW shouldn't be allowed in games period. We've seen it in these kinds of threads in the past. Is it everyone? No. But it is a loud enough group that my energy is focused against that argument.
ClockworkZion wrote:What I do think is that players should communicate exactly what they want before the game starts: FW, codex, points levels, allies, double FOC, narrative, casual, campaign, homebrew, special scenario, Altar of War, ect. None of that should be treated any differently than any other part of it. That is what I think and what I've been trying to get across since post one several threads ago.
Then you've done a bad job getting that point across. Or, perhaps more likely, such fine points are drowned out by the radicals from both sides of the argument.
Or being ignored in favor of other, easier arguments. Like accusations of intentionally being misleading.
ClockworkZion wrote:It's not about the state of the game now, I've addressed the fact that we're dealing with a genie that's been out of the bottle for 10 years now, it's where it comes from. It's the "proof" that's so often demanded that GW has supported FW from book one.
But .. they didn't? "As long as FW uses our rules like any other player, they're okay" is no more support than GW has extended to any random player using the rules in their books. Hence my opinion that FW is like the "professional hobbyist" corner of the company - a bit like with the Citadel Magazine when it was still being printed. What, did no-one notice how CJ rules never had the "Chapter Approved" stamp usually featured in WD articles?
IA2v1 says books are a source of rules that are meant for use in 40k with no stipulations on how those rules are made. Yes you can't use the IA books in WFB, but the fact remains that we have a lot more saying "this is real, official and legitimate to use in games" versus the claims that it never was.
Lynata wrote: As for the proof you keep asking about, it's in the very same "evidence" you have fielded. The condition that FW acts like your random gamer from next door, rather than being "empowered" to write their own stuff. In this light, GW is actually supporting Forge World now more than ever, because before 6E there was apparently still the issue of "legality" (as mentioned in the VDR thingy), whereas now everything is equally okay. Yet instead of making use of this new-found freedom and campaign for greater voluntary acceptance, we're now seeing a war being waged on message boards focused on rules this rules that.
I will have to disagree. IA2 has no prerequisite about VDR and yet it still says it's a source of rules for use. That actually removes VDR as a possible disqualifier as IA2v1 says that the Imperial Armour books are an ongoing series meant to give you rules to play the stuff in 40k. No stipulations on anything that would make them "illegal" were in there anymore. My guess is that there was a change in what they wanted to do with the books between 1 and 2 and it went from a small project to a full blown line (likely positive acceptance by the community and sales figures).
And even if you want to argue that VDR is a requirement we've got how many books printed between 2000~2010 that fit the requirements still? I'd guess "most".
You know what 6th edition gave us that 5th didn't? A list of where you get a legal army list. That was the arguement in 5th: that nothing "let" you play FW in the core rulebook. It was being shutdown by people who have never read a FW book, and didn't want it near their tournaments who were arguing "there is no rule that says FW is allowed". And let's not go into some of the other, sillier arguements.
Lynata wrote: I'm sorry, but I just can't subscribe to this train of thought.
Fine. Don't subscribe, but don't go making accusations about it because you don't agree with it. Attack the idea not the person otherwise you just fail.
ClockworkZion wrote:I'll continue supporting homebrew regardless what people are claiming, but let me deal with one battle at a time, eh? This thread is about FW, and that's a tall enough peak as is, give people some time to climb this summit before we start pushing them to climb another one.
In that case I think you are already fighting a losing battle, because in the end all you'll achieve is your current allies turning away from you. In terms of perception, it also makes you seem a bit hypocritical when you seemingly ignore negative remarks about homebrewed rather than being consistent and setting everyone straight who is "doing it wrong".
I'm sorry I can't hit up every single arguement in every post all the time. I mean it's not like you are either. You've only been critiquing my posts since you started posting this thread.
Lynata wrote: I know this can be difficult - often enough, I've taken a "step back" from discussions myself, thinking it'd be better for me if I let them fight that one out on their own so as to not "sabotage" my own argument or just because I feel like I don't want to waste time on an issue that has no priority for me, but it never really quite feels right to do so, so maybe I am a bit hypocritical myself. Maybe we all are.
Prioritization is not the same as hypocrisy. Sometimes you have to choose to put one thing over another because you can't do everything without shooting yourself in the foot.
ClockworkZion wrote:Are we clear now, or do I need to worry about any more accusations on my character caused by you reading into things that aren't there? You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I can only judge you by your actions (or rather the manner of your posts), and if I feel they clash with your supposed intentions, or even leave out critical information, then I have to point it out. Especially when I feel that my character is being accused as well.
Maybe this is all just a big misunderstanding, and I'm sure we would have no problem agreeing on a game if we ever had one, but unfortunately it seems we just can't level with each other on this one topic.
Well, at least we've already once again said all we had to say. Same time again next week?
If you're unclear, ask, don't assume. Assuming just makes things worse for all of us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 23:53:06
f your local TO does not allow FW models talk to them privately to discuss the reason. Having a screaming match with them at the shop 5 mnutes before the tourney starts is not exactly the way to go. Maybe invite them over for a match where you use your FW stuff or let them use some of yours. Possibly have a game at the shop this way during "off hours" and discuss the faults and merits of the models as the game goes on. This would be a way to demonstrate that 'it aint so bad".
I think that a lot of the reason it is not allowed because of the lack of information. most people (including myself) see the models as for "rich people'. face it, look at the prices and you hafta make special orders and so on. it is also not readily available for most players as most shops just don't carry it. this adds to the former image of them being for rich people. then there is the lack of knowledge, The rles are kept separate where you need to buy big books that are twice the cost of the GW codexes. All this combines to make FW some sort of mystical thing where if you have money, you are buying advantages. it does not matter that this is not true because it is so ingrained. Many players will just refuse to play in a tourney for FW because they don't have anything to compete with in their eyes.
Until FW becomes moremainstream and I think GW should be the one to champion this alongside players and the models are more readily available, I think tis will be the case. When I say GW should champion this, I mean give FW more credit than an occasional "heres a new thing they made". I mean give them more official rules, build their stuff into the codexes work closer together in general, offer their stufto be carried in normal stores and so on.
Emphasize th difference between apoc only and '40k approved". Most players (including myself) simply don't know which is which (aside from titans). Define the line better and which models are on which side of the line. heck, release a codex supplements "codex: DKoK".
I think that until then with ONLY FW players championing it, they will "appear" to be elitist snobs trying to make thiertoys official so they can have an advantage over the peons. I understand your view and agree. heck, I wish I could afford some of the cool stuff and am jealous I don't have any but you know as well as I do, that this is not the case with the vast majority of players and would be a headache for TO that most simply don't wanna have.:
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
All this combines to make FW some sort of mystical thing where if you have money, you are buying advantages. it does not matter that this is not true because it is so ingrained.
Agreed.
I actually agreed with the entire post but this part sounds like me.
It's like I barely have enough expensive models to play a regular
Game of 40k, and now you are pulling out big tank that I've never seen or heard of before and you are saying my whole army just died?
It reminds me of playing with imaginary swords or guns when you are a kid: "I just got you!"
"no, that part of my body is invincible."
"well I just cast a spell that made it un-invincible"
Etc etc
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's cool that there are a larger variety of models for the same game and that you can use them for 40k, but it does kind of suck and ruin a game experience when someone brings a huge tank thing and says: "this has 6 assault cannons, and 7 typhoon
Missile launchers"
"oh and they're twin linked.."
"oh and they're barrage and pinning. And cause you take an initiative test minus your strength but plus your weapon skill and divided by nine on two d3. "
"oh and if its gets a kill then you lose a turn"
"oh yeah, they also can go in any slot so I brought nine of them."
"this one is my hq, pretty cool huh?"
"but I'm just here to have fun, if I get tabled first turn by you that's ok, I'm just here to have fun."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/27 00:44:31
2000+
"Can we stop saying CCSM and CSM to just say CSM and SM? I mean really, don't we already know they have a codex? Plus my colon key is broken."
EVIL INC wrote: Try reading them instead of skimming and making snap judgements. You will see that I am championing FW models.
Nice attempt on trying to turn words around on me. If you have been championing things it's impossible to tell between talk about how everything ends in everyone bringing titans to 500 point games, talk about punching people over rules disagreements, as well as telling people who have been actively participating in the thread what you think it's really about and overall generally making your point so obfuscated that I'm not sure even Sherlock Holmes could have found it.
Thank you. I used to be one of the guys who thought FW models were the mystical rich mans models they bought to get auto wins. After being exposed to them and checking out the rules, I found they are the rich mans models to look extra cool and have extra cool rules and all. They were not to gain an advantage in normal games (although they CAN be abused in this way but hey, so can the "official" units as well).
they are more to expand the horizons and allow in more units and ideas and all that actually make some sense and which the "core" GW company just does not have the resources to do. The "normal game" stuff is clearly marked as being separate from the super heavies and titans that are specifically designed for apoc only and most FW model users respect that. Although as you have seen, there are some who think ANYTHING should go regardless of the markings but those are in the minority.
Until, GW brings them closer into the fold and starts giving them more exposure and helps champion the FW cause, it will APPEAR to many to be rich bullies trying to get their way for an unfair advantage. Not saying that its the case, just what the appearances are to the average gamer. This is why I also feel that a more "social' approach to introducing them where you educate the players, show them the models and rules and demonstrate their use, maybe even start a community order list so that the players can start to get a few introductory pieces for themselves and so forth is better than beating them with the "you have to play because it's legal" attitude.
For tournaments.... I wouldn't hold my breath on that anytime before you get your local community on board. You just have to overcome the lack of knowledge and open players minds to it. alone as gamers without GW support, I think it is an uphill battle. maybe, if you have enough local players who have FW models, maybe run your OWN tournaments in addition to the normal local ones (most shops will jump to let you do that) where FW is allowed and let anyone participate regardless of if the have FW or not. If your local FW group is that gung ho, make entry free and have prizes be credit on the next FW order.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Until, GW brings them closer into the fold and starts giving them more exposure and helps champion the FW cause, it will APPEAR to many to be rich bullies trying to get their way for an unfair advantage.
Rich bullies eh?? So I am a rich bully for trying to use my 60 dollar contemptor dreadnought (FW) but you are not a rich bully for using your 85 dollar riptide (GW)? Or am I a rich bully for trying to use my 50 dollar XV9 battlesuit (FW) but you are not a rich bully for using your 66 dollar vendetta (GW).
Double standard much
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
All this combines to make FW some sort of mystical thing where if you have money, you are buying advantages. it does not matter that this is not true because it is so ingrained.
Agreed.
I actually agreed with the entire post but this part sounds like me.
It's like I barely have enough expensive models to play a regular
Game of 40k, and now you are pulling out big tank that I've never seen or heard of before and you are saying my whole army just died?
It reminds me of playing with imaginary swords or guns when you are a kid: "I just got you!"
"no, that part of my body is invincible."
"well I just cast a spell that made it un-invincible"
Etc etc
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's cool that there are a larger variety of models for the same game and that you can use them for 40k, but it does kind of suck and ruin a game experience when someone brings a huge tank thing and says: "this has 6 assault cannons, and 7 typhoon
Missile launchers"
"oh and they're twin linked.."
"oh and they're barrage and pinning. And cause you take an initiative test minus your strength but plus your weapon skill and divided by nine on two d3. "
"oh and if its gets a kill then you lose a turn"
"oh yeah, they also can go in any slot so I brought nine of them."
"this one is my hq, pretty cool huh?"
"but I'm just here to have fun, if I get tabled first turn by you that's ok, I'm just here to have fun."
Please let me know what this unit is that is labeled 40k approved that your talking about. I've never seen anything remotely close to what your describing.
insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.
So, um, you remember that guy who was saying stuff about Titans and the like being used in regular games of 40k?
Here's a quote from Opening Salvo of December 2013's White Dwarf (I got it in the mail today).
Jes Bickham, Editor wrote:[...] Stronghold Assault and Escalation allow you to, respectively, add more big guns and fortifications to your Warhammer 40,000 armies, and use Lord of War units such as the Necron Tesseract Vault in "regular" games of Warhammer 40,000. All of these have sent the White Dwarf team and friends into a frenzy of brushwork as they add Wall of Martyrs Imperial Defence Lines, Baneblades and other Super-heavy units to their collections [...]
Page 52 mentions differences between Stronghold Assault/Escalation and Apocalypse such as things like "Strategic Assets, different types of Formations, Finest Hours and the like" remaining in the realm of Apocalypse games.
Looks like Escalation is about including superheavies in non-Apoc games, and Stronghold Assault is about using defensive fortifications like the Wall of Martyrs stuff.
Looks like a couple of expansions.
Also, god damn it. Jeremy Vetock this month. It's not that I have anything against him or what he says, it's just that his photo in every one of his articles makes me want to punch him in the face enough that I just skip the article altogether. That stupid laughing smile of his.
So, quick question. I don't know of any standard codex flyers that come in on turn one. Does the not overpowered Forgeworld rules allow for flyers on turn one?
Pouncey wrote: So, um, you remember that guy who was saying stuff about Titans and the like being used in regular games of 40k?
Here's a quote from Opening Salvo of December 2013's White Dwarf (I got it in the mail today).
Jes Bickham, Editor wrote:[...] Stronghold Assault and Escalation allow you to, respectively, add more big guns and fortifications to your Warhammer 40,000 armies, and use Lord of War units such as the Necron Tesseract Vault in "regular" games of Warhammer 40,000. All of these have sent the White Dwarf team and friends into a frenzy of brushwork as they add Wall of Martyrs Imperial Defence Lines, Baneblades and other Super-heavy units to their collections [...]
Page 52 mentions differences between Stronghold Assault/Escalation and Apocalypse such as things like "Strategic Assets, different types of Formations, Finest Hours and the like" remaining in the realm of Apocalypse games.
Looks like Escalation is about including superheavies in non-Apoc games, and Stronghold Assault is about using defensive fortifications like the Wall of Martyrs stuff.
Looks like a couple of expansions.
Also, god damn it. Jeremy Vetock this month. It's not that I have anything against him or what he says, it's just that his photo in every one of his articles makes me want to punch him in the face enough that I just skip the article altogether. That stupid laughing smile of his.
Does that mean Forgeworld is even more official-ier now?
Srsly though, my stance on FW is thus: They make sexy models, are a part of GW (Or else they would've been sued into the ground) and you can use them in 40k. If the people in your group don't want to play it why not just try and change their mind about it? We're all raisinable beings here I am sure it can be done. I do disagree with Forgeworld being a rich man's "Pay to win" avenue since it's implying that 40k isn't pay to win. I think how you need to buy a new army almost every year to be at the top pretty much disproves that notion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/27 03:05:45
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
anchorbine wrote: So, quick question. I don't know of any standard codex flyers that come in on turn one. Does the not overpowered Forgeworld rules allow for flyers on turn one?
There is exactly one FW option for turn-1 flyers, the Elysian drop troops list (pure air cav IG). It has a lot of restrictions and only works with Valkyries, a unit you don't really care about having on the table early, so it's really just a fluff thing. FW does not offer any way of getting any other flyers on turn 1.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Until, GW brings them closer into the fold and starts giving them more exposure and helps champion the FW cause, it will APPEAR to many to be rich bullies trying to get their way for an unfair advantage.
Rich bullies eh?? So I am a rich bully for trying to use my 60 dollar contemptor dreadnought (FW) but you are not a rich bully for using your 85 dollar riptide (GW)? Or am I a rich bully for trying to use my 50 dollar XV9 battlesuit (FW) but you are not a rich bully for using your 66 dollar vendetta (GW).
Double standard much
If you will read my post, you will se that is an impression that is often given. I did not say it was the truth (likely it is not) or that that is an image that I agree with. I'm only saying that that is an image that FW users need to overcome. Personally, I would love to face your contemptor dread. I like the image of those and am interested in how they are on the field of battle.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
FW is not pay to win no matter what some people think. There are many FW units that are more expensive and less powerful than other viable options in the "official" codex for that army that would otherwise occupy the same category in the army list.
It's cool that there are a larger variety of models for the same game and that you can use them for 40k, but it does kind of suck and ruin a game experience when someone brings a huge tank thing and says: "this has 6 assault cannons, and 7 typhoon
Missile launchers"
"oh and they're twin linked.."
"oh and they're barrage and pinning. And cause you take an initiative test minus your strength but plus your weapon skill and divided by nine on two d3. "
"oh and if its gets a kill then you lose a turn"
"oh yeah, they also can go in any slot so I brought nine of them."
"this one is my hq, pretty cool huh?"
"but I'm just here to have fun, if I get tabled first turn by you that's ok, I'm just here to have fun."
Really? Please, find even one example in the entire Eldar (or any other race) section from FW that fits any one part of what you just said. Titan's don't count, as those are obviously apocalypse-only, even though they can't do any of that either.
And then compare that to fielding three Heldrakes or tons of Riptides.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/27 05:21:48
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Not to feed the fire, because I'm sure there are some people who will run with it, but the new Warrior's Code rules actually prohibit FW rules at Warhammer World events.
When asked for clarification, they explained you can use the models, but not any FW rules for them (Contemptor could be used as a regular dread, or DKoK/Elysians as regular IGuard, for example).
Though my favorite rule there, just for the lolz, is that you can't use any third party conversion kits. If they can't win the Chapterhouse lawsuit, they'll just take away your toys.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Not to feed the fire, because I'm sure there are some people who will run with it, but the new Warrior's Code rules actually prohibit FW rules at Warhammer World events.
Doesn't matter. Those events are run by GW's sales department, not the game designers. The rules are relevant if you're attending a specific event where they are in effect, but for the other 99.9999% of us they might as well not exist.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Breng77 wrote: How then do you deal with tournaments then. FW is always legal at all times? Because players will not be able to turn it down as they want in a game in that case.
The way I see it is tournaments "banning" it is essentially just that they are deciding that they would rather not deal with them, for all players that wish to attend.
The same question can be asked about Tripple Riptide lists though. How do you deal with them? If tournaments want to ban FW from their tournaments then I am fine with it. If it really makes it that much easier for them then they can knock themselves out.
Gw's problem with coming out and restricting or banning things that made it into torunaments is they haven't before, so if they were to try there would be an uproar of fans that they really don't want to deal with. GW today is like the reluctant comic book store owner, who only got into it because his father owned it first. Sure he will sell you comics, but that is where his involvement ends. If you stand there and chat their ears off about your favorite one, they will roll their eyes, sigh, and look disinterested at some corner of the store. If gw could figure out some magic way to sell just their models without ever having to update rules again, they would. But they have to update to keep interest. Again that falls under the blanket forgeworld ban. less headaches for them in official tournaments where people might write in and complain, then they would have to get off the couch and work on actual balance. And no, gw does not restrict double force org or allies, which is why you see so many cheezy tournament winning lists formulated on this site. If they did, they would take into account that restriction.
And I don't look down at people who want to run forgeworld, I would love to run an ork list from IA8 with mega dredds, and about 20 different types of trukks. But these were created with the sole purpose of sales in mind, and its very easy to sell an expensive model if its overpowered. Riptides in the regular games say that. Do you think its weird in magic that one card would be 10 cents, and another hundreds of dollars? People are willing to shell out for power. And the problem is in the last few years forgeworld has figured this out and has been catering to this type of player. Rvanna riptides, Spartan land raiders, the new chaos/marine flyer with redonculous firepower. The people buying these things for a blatant undercosted power boost on the board are the vocal minority, and making all forgeworld look bad. So people shun them. And none of this will change without GW stepping up their game, sitting down for some hard playtesting and decision making, and outright banning the cheese. This banning will cost them dollars in models that ARE the problem in the first place, so will never be addressed. And thus you have the situation you complain about now: nobody likes forgeworld. Nobody likes GW laziness, and its their fault.
Did you really just cite the Land Raider Spartan as an overpowered FW unit?
DarthOvious wrote:Just thought I would put my opinion here. Personally I have nothing against homebrewed rules, my earlier post was just making a statement ealier on in regards to the difference between homebrewed and Forge World. i.e. FW I would consider to be from an impartial source whereas homebrewed rules are from a biased source. This doesn't mean I wouldn't play against somebody who used homebrewed rules, it just means I am very much more likely to want to read their rules before playing them and making a judgement based on balance issues.
Ah, but you realise that this is a matter of interpretation? You are biased yourself if you categorically treat homebrewed as less likely to be fun/balanced. It's an understandable bias, mind you (given that many or most homebrewed rules are focusing on one's personal favourite army), but at the same time other people are categorically biased against FW based on what they hear on the nets, or perhaps in some few cases based on exceptional individual experience.
Yes, it's an understandable bias because sometimes you do get TFG trying to have it on. Thats why I would have a read of the homebrew rules first. I don't mind if they are competitive or strong. I just don't want to see units with 10s all across the board for their stats and costing a pittance for what they do.
Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from, and personally I even agree with your assessment. But still, at the end of the day, it's all a matter of perspective. And I feel threads like these will only widen the gap in the playerbase rather than heal it, just because of how forcefully some few posters argue, and because the debate is still focused on such abstract terms like "legal" or "official" when GW themselves, with their newest rulebook, have made it clear that they don't care and that it's up to the players to sort it out.
Alas it is the nature of debate. People can feel really strongly about the littliest of things. Myself included.
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Veteran Sergeant wrote: Not to feed the fire, because I'm sure there are some people who will run with it, but the new Warrior's Code rules actually prohibit FW rules at Warhammer World events.
Doesn't matter. Those events are run by GW's sales department, not the game designers. The rules are relevant if you're attending a specific event where they are in effect, but for the other 99.9999% of us they might as well not exist.
Wrong. The tournaments are run by red shirts who actively promote converted models and creativity. Warhammer world even sells forgeworld, so why the hell would the sales department *not* want to encourage the more expensive forgeworld? Just sounds like another emotionally driven argument from perry.
If you'd like to know why they ban fw rules, i'm sure you could email them.
Orock wrote: About the faq: they are all located in an easy to find place, and with internet access could be confirmed rather quickly. Where is the official GW or forgeworld FAQ? Its all over the place. How do I know that that land raider has 5 hull points for some reason. How do I know its not doctored documentation unless I also own or have read the book? How do I know a book made in 2002 is the most recent, im not going to pirate all the imperial armor and other official books to check on someones obscure rule. At my local store, if I don't have the codex, there it is on the wall. AND they always get a copy of digital codexes, and make them available to anyone to fact check.
Faq cheating is 10x harder than just printing out some doctored sheets of forgeworld items that may just fudge the points cost, or adjust the stats ever so slightly. Mabye higher leadership for a group, maybe that flyer has ceramite plating and I just missed it when I happened to scan across it on the net.
That and just MMMABBBYYEEE I am I am disillusioned by the fact the ONLY forgeworld units that seem to show up in my area are closer in stupid to the rvanna, than some of the more reasonable units. Forgeworld is a bad word in my area, and the definition in the dictionary is player who pays to win with rules that are made purely to sell models.
Trust me, my Hazard Suits are not pay to win. On the other hand the 8 Broadsides and the 2 Riptides I have are pay to win.
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yukondal wrote: It's cool that there are a larger variety of models for the same game and that you can use them for 40k, but it does kind of suck and ruin a game experience when someone brings a huge tank thing and says: "this has 6 assault cannons, and 7 typhoon
Missile launchers"
"oh and they're twin linked.."
"oh and they're barrage and pinning. And cause you take an initiative test minus your strength but plus your weapon skill and divided by nine on two d3. "
"oh and if its gets a kill then you lose a turn"
"oh yeah, they also can go in any slot so I brought nine of them."
"this one is my hq, pretty cool huh?"
"but I'm just here to have fun, if I get tabled first turn by you that's ok, I'm just here to have fun."
I'm not aware of any FW stuff that does this. However this is the reason why I would homebrewed rules before playing.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Not to feed the fire, because I'm sure there are some people who will run with it, but the new Warrior's Code rules actually prohibit FW rules at Warhammer World events.
Doesn't matter. Those events are run by GW's sales department, not the game designers. The rules are relevant if you're attending a specific event where they are in effect, but for the other 99.9999% of us they might as well not exist.
Wrong. The tournaments are run by red shirts who actively promote converted models and creativity. Warhammer world even sells forgeworld, so why the hell would the sales department *not* want to encourage the more expensive forgeworld? Just sounds like another emotionally driven argument from perry.
If you'd like to know why they ban fw rules, i'm sure you could email them.
The event organizers do it to make the event easier to run, and because their personal views are that it's an add-on. But these are red shirts and we throw out the statements of the ones who mention things pro-FW so the ones who say the opposite have to go right out the window too or we're just playing favorites.
anchorbine wrote: So, quick question. I don't know of any standard codex flyers that come in on turn one. Does the not overpowered Forgeworld rules allow for flyers on turn one?
No, its apcalypse rules that state flyers come in first turn, which includes all the codex flyers as well.
If you're using FW units in normal games then you don't use apocalypse rules.
Srsly though, my stance on FW is thus: They make sexy models, are a part of GW (Or else they would've been sued into the ground) and you can use them in 40k. If the people in your group don't want to play it why not just try and change their mind about it? We're all raisinable beings here I am sure it can be done. I do disagree with Forgeworld being a rich man's "Pay to win" avenue since it's implying that 40k isn't pay to win. I think how you need to buy a new army almost every year to be at the top pretty much disproves that notion.
Speak for yourself, I am not made of raisins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/27 13:00:31
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Not to feed the fire, because I'm sure there are some people who will run with it, but the new Warrior's Code rules actually prohibit FW rules at Warhammer World events.
Doesn't matter. Those events are run by GW's sales department, not the game designers. The rules are relevant if you're attending a specific event where they are in effect, but for the other 99.9999% of us they might as well not exist.
Wrong. The tournaments are run by red shirts who actively promote converted models and creativity. Warhammer world even sells forgeworld, so why the hell would the sales department *not* want to encourage the more expensive forgeworld? Just sounds like another emotionally driven argument from perry.
If you'd like to know why they ban fw rules, i'm sure you could email them.
Wrong, theyre actually yellow shirts, as they are "Events" team. I'm sure you knew that.
Theyre doing it because it is simpler for them. I know this as I asked them. Did you?
Breng77 wrote:
How then do you deal with tournaments then. FW is always legal at all times? Because players will not be able to turn it down as they want in a game in that case.
Yes, FWis 100% legal. This has been proven - the armybooks are GW rules. Not sanctioned, they ARE GW rules. Those GW rule states they can be used in normal games of 40k. So yes, they ARE legal AT ALL TIMES
However, what you seem to miss is that whether they arelegal or not has NO BEARING on whether you can turn them down or not. Out of a tournament - hell, IN a tournament - I can turn a game down for any reason I like. I dont like pink orks. Cant stand Tau gun line boredom. Hate the models for grots, so please dontuse any or I wont play you. ANY reason. That is because even playing a game is a social contract - something you both agree on.
So FW being legal - which it is, so dont question it further - does not, in any way shape or form, restrict YOUR ability to not play a game against someone.
What a realisaiton of FW legality DOES do is turn the onus around - instead of having to ask permission to use FW, the onus is on th eperson who doesnt like something to ask if they could play a game with out FW. Asubtle, but important, distinction.
Which brings us back full circle to the attitude in which the subject is broached. As it is up to the individual TO and players how they run their games or if they will play, it doesn't matter how legal it is. They don't have to if they don't want to..
This is why I suggest introducing it to them in a polite and reasonable way. The use of demonstration games, discussions focused on merits rather than legalities, heck even play a few "team games and let them borrow a unit or two. There are a lot of ways to do it in a non-confrontational manner. Without GW support, it is an uphill battle overcoming years of ingrained attitudes.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
nosferatu1001 wrote: What a realisaiton of FW legality DOES do is turn the onus around - instead of having to ask permission to use FW, the onus is on th eperson who doesnt like something to ask if they could play a game with out FW. Asubtle, but important, distinction.
Yes, a very important distinction. Replace "FW" with "flyers" and people will understand - they need to realize it's the same thing.
8k points
3k points
3k points
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War 
10k
2k
500 
More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
The last tourney we had here saw Space Wolves clinch the victory, and the last one before that (which was before the 6th Ed Space Marine Codex dropped) was Space Marines.
2000+
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
The Empire 
: 
