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 blackmage wrote:
if you play demons, chaos knight will be always a better choice 3++/2++ save is awsome against lot of armies which just cant handle it.

Isn't that a LoW choice?

That means that unless your taking a CAD you can't get one. The Renegade knights are open to all. Orks, Black Legion, Daemonic Incursion, etc...

Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.

If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).

Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
it requires you to have a CAD

Can't you just take the chaos knight without a CAD and lose obsec on him?

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.

If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).

Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.

depend...less costly if you use just melee weapons if you start add firepower it cost a lot and anyway a grimoried chaos knight can try to stand any kind of close combat/shoot punishment, a normal knight cant, for example if I play a D thirster i m happy to see a renegade instead a grimoired chaos knight the renegade die in 1 single melee round the second one die only if i roll "6", just an example.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:
it requires you to have a CAD

Can't you just take the chaos knight without a CAD and lose obsec on him?

No he is only a LoW choice for Daeomns, KDK, and CSM. And a Chaos Knight doesn't get ObSec from a CAD in the first place since he's not a troop

 CrownAxe wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:
it requires you to have a CAD

Can't you just take the chaos knight without a CAD and lose obsec on him?

No he is only a LoW choice for Daeomns, KDK, and CSM. And a Chaos Knight doesn't get ObSec from a CAD in the first place since he's not a troop

Sorry, I don't know what I was talking about with obsec.

But you could take an unbound army with the tetrad and a chaos knight.

 mrhappyface wrote:
But you could take an unbound army with the tetrad and a chaos knight.

Yes you could, but many tourneys don't allow for unbound :\

 labmouse42 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
But you could take an unbound army with the tetrad and a chaos knight.

Yes you could, but many tourneys don't allow for unbound :\

Really? I have never heard of tourneys that don't allow unbound.

probably you didn't look a lot into tourneys. 99% doesn't allow unbound

My LGS is 50/50. We have tourneys every 1st Saturday of the months and some allow Unbound, some require Battle-Forged with not Come the Apoc allies. It just depends on who is the TO

Infernal tetrad cannot take a daemon knight without going unbound. It can take 2 renegade knights and remain battle forged. It isn't about if it is allowed or not for me, its that I don't prefer to be unbound.

Plus, how would you get the ++3 save? Infernal tetrad rarely has the grimore. Additionally, naked renegade knights are cheaper, I could fit 2 naked renegade knights with my tetrad at 2k. 35pt to spare, so I could throw a missile pod on one of them I guess.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Infernal tetrad cannot take a daemon knight without going unbound. It can take 2 renegade knights and remain battle forged.

If you are taking the tetrad anyway without incursion detachment then it doesn't matter about being unbound. (and honestly battle forged is overated) I would think it would be a close call who would win in a fight between to renegade knights and a chaos knight buffed up with a 2++ (possibly re-rollable) invulnerable save.

I personally like to give the grimoire to the Nurgle prince, I know he can be good in cc but his 2+ cover save makes him brilliant as the flying support unit. Aren't the renegade knights 50pts cheapper because they have no ranged weapons base?

This thread isn't about bound or unbound, or about R knight vs D knight.

Which prince would you drop the greater rewards on for the grimoire? Khonre or Tzeentch? Both can get by with just the lesser. Not having balesword option on nurgle is a big risk, and not having lash option on slaanesh just seems like a bad idea. I guess you could go for sword/grimoire on nurgle, but passing up the chance for a greater reward is risky. Nevermind, question answered!

Yeah, they have no ranged, and the battle report that used them reflected that. Really though, do you need the ranged? What tetrad lists have been discussed in this thread that have ranged abilities?

most time SL prince have exalted reward and still have the lash or Tz can have , is the DP more protected usually so he can drop a greater reward. Anyway i would be happy if i face renegade with my flying circus instead a grimoired 2++ chaos knight, my personal preference

 blackmage wrote:
probably you didn't look a lot into tourneys. 99% doesn't allow unbound

I was guessing there was sarcasm in his comment

 blackmage wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Yeah a Chaos Knight is a lot tougher with daemon shenanigans or relics of the ruins, but he is also a lot more expensive than a basic close-combat knight (~100pts more) and it requires you to have a CAD, which depending what you want is less than ideal.

If it's the ranged firepower that you're into then again the rengade knight has better option (dual gatling, mmmmmh).

Don't get me wrong, Chaos Knights are awesome and frightening (I play one in my current tournament list), but Renegades Knights just offers some options the Chaos Knight can't, and is overall more flexible and less costly.

depend...less costly if you use just melee weapons if you start add firepower it cost a lot [...]

Well here's how I see it : a Chaos Knight cost at least 425pts if you go with the dirge caster (pretty mandatory for 5pts only) and one of the two cheapest mark. He's good in close combat, but kinda meh in terms of dakka. From there 3 possibilities :

A/ If you're only interested into close-combat ability, the Renegade is wayyy cheaper (100pts less) for more or less the same prowess: a few D swings and stomps. It lacks the better D sword but has 1 more attack due to having two weapons, and it can throw stuff at your opponent face. Plus it doesnt requires you to take a CAD, which can be perceived as an additional tax sometimes. So you get a 100pts discount plus whatever the CAD is a tax for you.

B/ If you are only interested into the ranged firepower aspect, then a double-gatling Renegade Knight is just straight out better than the CK for the about the same price (435pts). Again, you also don't have to take a CAD, so if you did not intend to take one, the Renegade is actually cheaper by the amount of that CAD.

C/ If you want a mixed-bag knight (both CC and ranged), then you are looking at a 375pts Renegade (gatling+sword), again, cheaper than the CK and same problem for the potential CAD-tax

So yeah, overall the Renegade *is* cheaper than the Chaos Knight, that's just a fact.


If you want to pull out the 2++/3++ shenanigans you also need to factor something in : the cost of the grimoire and it's holder. Granted it's usually not too much of a problem for us demon player but still, it has one great effect : it put constraint on your list building process.

Typically, you don't want your grimoire holder to be easily killable, otherwise the ennemy will just eradicate him from the table. So either you put him on a flying MC (who tags at 300+pts) or on a herald in a strong enough unit (easily 250+pts). Even just a basic unit of say plaguebearer in cover with a grimoire herald clocks at 165pts. So by deciding that you want to play a grimoired CK, you are blocking 600-700pts of your army budget. Power-wise it's not bad because chances are your flying MC or herald in a unit will do a lot of work too during the game, but it really make your list building a lot less flexible (especially if you add the CAD requirement).


Now with a bit of luck, a well-supported Chaos Knight is indeed almost indestructible. But it cost a lot to field him + the support unit, and makes your army list building process more stringent. It's basically a death-star list building approach.
The Renegade Knights are far from indestructible, but they are always cheaper, and doesnt constraint your list building.

considering the actual meta, in most cases full with grav marines i prefer a more durable chaos knight which can make those nasty grav bounce and make them useless, grimorie on a piece hard to kill like a DP TZ with robes last enough and require a big amount of firepower to try to kill, so most armies just havent so much firepower to take down both, then usually i play also a D thirster (sometimes invisible or with a 4++ save and double rewarded) so what you try to kill 1st? i played it and i know that for sure, if try to kill grimorie bearer (and most time fail) you let knight rampage trough your army, if you try kill knight you anyway most time fail, with renegade just centurions with grav could potentially dispatch it in 1 turn... so i really dont know, in a list wich can easily play grimorie and cursed earth i feel chaos knight is still better than renegade, just my opinion of course, probably in tetrad renegade is better cause tetrad has less support for a chaos knight .

I agree with blackmage in the way to bring your knights. Here are two lists I'm thinking of bringing to a two day tourney next week. The first utilizes the support behind a daemon knight giving him a 3++ or 2++ in half the turns or more. Supported by a warphost, fatey, and objective secured spawning units -- it's a damn hard list.

The second list is one where that the Renegade Knights shine. A tetrad.

List One : Warpflame Host w/Chaos Knight


List Two: Pacific Rim - Tetrad with Renegades

@labmouse: Portal Glyph troops are not ObSec. Both ITC and NOVA FAQs specify that spawned troops do not count as part of a detachment. Its a tough list though. Should do well generally.

List 1 is more balanced than the Tetrad list. I think its better over all. The high buy-in costs of the Tetrad make it vulnerable to more asymmetric matchups than the Incursion list.

PanzerLeader wrote:
@labmouse: Portal Glyph troops are not ObSec. Both ITC and NOVA FAQs specify that spawned troops do not count as part of a detachment. Its a tough list though. Should do well generally.

List 1 is more balanced than the Tetrad list. I think its better over all. The high buy-in costs of the Tetrad make it vulnerable to more asymmetric matchups than the Incursion list.

Thanks for the catch. I just double checked and you are correct about the portalglyph units. We all help keep each other honest

I also think the first list will do better at in ITC missions. For NOVA missions, I think the second will do better -- mostly because you can't take chaos knights at NOVA. I would be forced to take a double gatling knight instead. Not that such a knight is bad, I just think that the daemon knight synargizes better since you can get it down to a 2++, which lets is possibly counter a WK.

In ITC you are, by default, always progressive scoring, where in NOVA you can choose to score at the end. This is something Tetrad's as a whole can do better. I've played the Tetrad's a LOT lately, and they have a hard time with progessive scoring as they want to be smashing face and not squatting on objectives. In NOVA style missions they just plan on tabling their opponents, or getting as close to it as possible.

Remember that NOVA missions are asymmetrical. Do you have enough units in list two to prevent them from running up a high score?

For example, against the monster list I'd do progressive scoring, strike the rank and file, line breaker, through attrition victory, and marked for death. I'd mark one of the two knights.

For scoring purposes, I'd start the game by automatically achieving Strike the Rank and File (+2). Every three hull points dealt to a knight give me a secondary point so killing the marked knight nets me a total of +4 (+6 total). If I kill the second knight or have a single unit line breaking, I will max out my secondary points (+8) total. Notice I don't actually have to engage the Tetrad itself to make this happen.

With only two ground units, it will be difficult to prevent me from maxing out on progressives but lets assume you prevent me on a turn or two and I end up with 7 out of 9 points (+15 total) for a realistic end of game total of 17 out of 21 points (assuming two tertiary points for killing the two renegade knights in different turns). It would be hard for a Tetrad list to match this total given that Nova end of game requires covering many objectives to max and not just covering a single objective more like ITC.

maybe a nice list for scoring obj also in nova/ITC could be murder host+burning skyhost
k herald 8x5 hounds
tz herald 9x3 screamers
fatey
fast, hit hard enough, lot of wounds a minimal psy support, tried it against eldar and gladius and works very fine.

PanzerLeader wrote:
With only two ground units...

The tetrad is gliding in 80% of it's turns. They are to expensive to swoop around and use as shooting. Their job is to get in there and beat face. 6 fast moving units can grab 6 objectives fairly easily if you are staying somewhat near the board center by turn 5. In most games, you will have removed enough of the opponents models by turn 5 where they can't lly stop you.

All of your other points are very valid, I'm just trying to understand what you ment by this?

Just that you can't count on the tetrad always being in glide because it's difficult to encapsulate all possible opponents/situations in one post. If you play a drop centurion army heavy army, you'd likely elect to swoop until they've landed and you've had a chance to counter deploy. The two knights will always score/deny, the princes may not depending on how the game unfolds.

The other problem with just six units in the Nova format is that killing just 2 prevents you from maxing out. It forces you to summon which is less optimal in terms of damage output and creates targets that your opponent can handle instead of being mostly irrelevant.

CHAOS KNIGHTS VS RENEGADE KNIGHTS - WHICH IS THE RIGHT KNIGHT FOR YOU?

For the release of the new Imperial Knights: Renegade, Chaos players now have options for their Super-heavy walkers. Assuming Forgeworld experimental units are allowed in your competitive meta, we now have the Khorne Lord of Skulls, the Kytan, the Chaos Knight and the Renegade Knight. The Lord of Skulls has its niche as an over-priced, under-performing LoW Super-heavy. The Kytan fills the need for an excellent and reasonably priced assault Super-heavy walker. As for the Chaos and Renegade Knights, they are more of a low-cost, all-purpose Super-heavy that can fit into the budget of many Chaos lists. The question then is, why should you take one over the other? What are their roles and how do they differ? Which one is better? In this mini-tactica, I will take a more in-depth look at the two knights. I will also rank them according to their strengths and weaknesses.

So why am I qualified to write about the Chaos and Renegade Knights? What is my expertise with them?

I am currently running a Chaos Knight with one of my Chaos armies. I currently run a Khorne Knight in a meta (the ITC) which allows one to use them in tournament play. I have had some success with him, going 5-1 and placing 13th at the LVO. As for the Renegade Knights, I admit that I have not actually run one yet. They are still so new that the rules actually have not even been officially released yet at the time of this article. However, I have and do run Imperial Knights. I have run anywhere from 1 to 5 Knights before. I have also played against anywhere from a 1 to 5 Knight army as well. Renegade Knights are almost identical to the Imperial ones, with the only difference being Imperial ones have better formations. But if you are talking about an apples to apples comparison (Forsworn versus the Oathsworn detachments), then the tactics you use between the two are basically the same. Hence, my experiences with the Imperial Knights should be fully applicable to the Renegade ones as well.


RENEGADE KNIGHT

So why should you take a Renegade Knight over a Chaos Knight?

Multiple Knights. With the Chaos Knight, you can only take one. With the Renegade Knight, you can take up to 3. If you want to run more than 1 knight in a tournament system/format like the ITC or others, then your only choice is the Renegade Knight. +1

Can be taken with non-Chaos factions. Many tournaments do not allow for Come the Apocalpyse allies. You want to run Imperial Knights with Orks or Necrons without resorting to Come the Apocalypse allies? Then your only choice are the Renegade Knights. +1

No Tax units. Unlike Chaos Knights, which would require you to take a Combined Arms Detachment, you do not need to take any other units to unlock the Renegade Knight. They are playable as is without requiring you to take any "tax" units. +1

Better shooters. The Renegade Knight can be configured to be a better shooter than the Chaos Knight. For up to 60-pts more, you can in essence double its firepower. The Renegade Knight is also a more flexible shooter, with options for 3 different guns as opposed to only 2 for the Chaos Knight. +1

Multiple Knights = more Stomps! While a single Renegade Knight is not better than a Chaos Knight in assault, multiple Renegade Knights in close combat are more dangerous simply because they are more stompy. Against normal units, that may not necessarily matter, but when you can assault multiple knights into an enemy deathstar unit, those extra stomp attacks will hurt. By the ways, I did not bring up the Destroyer attacks because a Chaos Knight with a D-Thirster will still out-punch 2 Renegade Knights, but they won't out-stomp 2 Renegades. +1

Better durability versus small-arms firepower. When you take a Chaos Knight + something else, the "something else" can usually be hurt by small-arms firepower (S5 or less). With multiple Renegades, you are basically immune to small-arms firepower as well as most normal close-combat attacks. +1

Ranking: +6


CHAOS KNIGHT

Contrarily, you should take a Chaos Knight over a Renegade Knight because....

Daemon Knight. This is a humongous and probably the main distinction between the 2 types of knights. This is what makes the Chaos Knight a Chaos Knight rather than just a Renegade Knight. But before I go on, I want to note that in a format such as the ITC, a Daemon Knight of <Specific God> also counts as a Daemon of <Specific God>. That means that a Chaos Knight will have a 5++ Invulnerable save along with some other bonuses. This is a huge boon. A 5++ save means that a Chaos Knight is 50% more survivable than a Renegade Knight overall (not counting Ion Shields). You need to deal 6HP of damage to kill a Renegade Knight. For a Chaos Knight, you need to deal an average of 9HP of damage to kill him. Furthermore, the more durable a Knight is, the more damage it can do simply by being able to survive longer to inflict more pain. Then there are the other bonuses that comes along with being a Daemon Knight. +2

Force-multiplier additions to increase durability. The Chaos Knight is way more durable than a Renegade Knight because of the force-multiplier effects you can bundle onto it. Just a successful Grimoire on it (3++ Invulnerable with a 2++ on its Ion Shield facing) means that you will need to do 18 HP's of damage on average to kill him! That increases his durability over a Renegade Knight by 300%. That means 1 Chaos Knight is just as survivable as 3 Renegade Knights!!! If you count the Ion Shield facings (assuming all of the enemy firepower is directed at the shielded facing), it will take 12HP of damage to kill a normal Renegade Knight (4++). Shooting a Grimoire'd Chaos Knight at his Ion Shield facing (2++) would require you to do 36HP of damage!!!

Then you have powers such as Cursed Earth, Forewarning and a Relic that can be cast/used to increase the Chaos Knight's durability even more. This essentially turns the Chaos Knight into a deathstar all by itself. In one game, I have had my Chaos Knight go through a Brass Scorpion and several Chaos walkers (Soulgrinders and Blood Slaughterers) all by himself. I have had him survive the firepower of an entire Tau army and a Gladius Battle Company as well. With force-multipliers, his durability becomes God-like. Not even 3 Renegade Knights can withstand the amount of punishment a fully-buffed Chaos Knight can. +2

Dirge Caster. This is a nifty option available to the Chaos Knight that his Renegade cousin does not have. While not necessarily useful at all times, it is a good feature against certain armies, namely Tau with their Supporting Fire and Dark Angels Battle Company with their full-BS Overwatch. +.5

Better in close-combat. Yes, a Chaos Knight is better than a Renegade Knight in close combat, even with the same configurations. Assuming ITC intepretations, just the 5++ Invuln save (potentially buffed up to a 3++ or even 2++) makes a big difference in assault. However, a Khorne Knight also gets +D3 Attacks on the charge and can re-roll the number of Stomp attacks. The Tzeentch Knight re-roll saves of 1 as well as To Hit rolls of 1. The Nurgle Knight has It Will No Die and Shroud, and the Slaanesh Knight is Fleet, runs an extra 3" and can potentially cause the enemy to strike at Initiative 1. +1

Chaos Relics. If you are playing in the ITC format, then you can take Chaos Legacy Relics on your Chaos Knights (under certain conditions). Each Relic has different abilities but there is one in particular that is really good on a Khorne Knight. I won't go into detail with it here, but suffice to say, being able to take Relics on a Chaos Knight is a boon. +1

Cost Effectiveness. Whereas a single Renegade Knight is cheaper on average, a Chaos Knight is the more cost effective unit especially when taking into account its durability. An unbuffed Chaos Knight is 1.5x more durable than a Renegade Knight. However, most of the time, you would want to buff up your Chaos Knight. A fully buffed Chaos Knight is potentially 3x more durable than a Renegade Knight. You are getting much more bang for the buck with the Chaos Knight. The Chaos Knight is much more resilient than even 2 Renegade Knights, but for the cost of the 2 Renegades, you can take a Chaos Knight as well as a Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince with the Grimoire. Not only are the Chaos Knight + FMC combo much more resilient, but they can do much more damage than the 2 Renegades. +1

Better scoring. You can actually build a more balanced Chaos list with better scoring units with the Chaos Knight than with multiple Renegade Knights. For example, for the price of 2 Renegade Knights (750-pts), you can get a Khorne Knight, a Herald of Nurgle and 6 units of 3 Nurglings (almost a full Tallyband!). Whereas the Renegade Knights will play better in a Victory Points mission, the Chaos Knight + troops is the better overall Take-All-Comer's build due to the fact that it plays the objective game much, much better. +1

Ranking: +7.5


CONCLUSION

To me, it is a no-brainer. The Chaos Knight is the better choice between the 2 types of Knights. For just a miminal cost increase, the performance of the Chaos Knight out-performs and out-survives the Renegade Knight at an exponential pace. The Chaos Knight is a threat that rivals that of a deathstar and with the resiliency to boot. You can also build a more balanced army with a Chaos Knight with much better scoring than you can with multiple Renegade Knights. There are reasons to run Renegades - when you want to run multiple Knights in your army, when you want to take a Knight with a Necron or Ork detachment, if you are so tight with points that you actually cannot afford to take a Chaos Knight or if your meta simply does not allow Forgeworld experimental units. Other than that, there really is no reason to take the Renegade over a Chaos Knight. The Chaos Knight is superior by far.

In closing, I will leave you with an 1850 Chaos Knight/Infernal Tetrad list that I am planning to run in the future.


Daemon Prince of Khorne - Flight, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, Armour of Scorn
Daemon Prince of Nurgle - Flight, ML 2, 2x Greater
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - Flight, ML 2, 1x Exalted (Grimoire), 1x Greater
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - Flight, ML 2, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser, Impossible Robes

Herald of Tzeentch - ML 2
11x Pink Horrors
3x Nurglings
Chaos Knight of Tzeentch (or Khorne)

1850

Unsure why you would ever take MoT, as the bonuses for MoK are just terribly tasty.

My only issue is having to take a CAD with the Chaos Knight. That said, if you already WERE taking a CAD...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unsure why you would ever take MoT, as the bonuses for MoK are just terribly tasty..

2++ rerollable saves are insanely good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unsure why you would ever take MoT, as the bonuses for MoK are just terribly tasty.

My only issue is having to take a CAD with the Chaos Knight. That said, if you already WERE taking a CAD...

The Tzeentch Knight is a more defensive Knight (though the re-roll 1's To Hit is also pretty good offensively). The Khorne Knight is a more offensive Knight. Actually, it all comes down to personal preference and sometimes, the theme of the army.

Yeah, one of the drawbacks to taking a Chaos Knight is that you need to take a CAD. However, it isn't so bad to take a CAD. There are many units in the CAD that can help, but if you really need to go dirt cheap, then go with a Renegades CAD. You can get a Renegade CAD for less than 100 (and with a Psyker)!

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unsure why you would ever take MoT, as the bonuses for MoK are just terribly tasty..

2++ rerollable saves are insanely good.

Correct. With the proper buffs, the Tzeentch Knight becomes nigh unkillable.

 jy2 wrote:
Yeah, one of the drawbacks to taking a Chaos Knight is that you need to take a CAD. However, it isn't so bad to take a CAD. There are many units in the CAD that can help, but if you really need to go dirt cheap, then go with a Renegades CAD. You can get a Renegade CAD for less than 100 (and with a Psyker)!

Well the problem with the Renegade CAD is that they can't take a Chaos Knight (also you have to take an Arch-demagogue as your HQ because they have a 1+ requirement)

I'm not seeing where the MoT Knight would reroll his save. I'm missing something I'm sure.