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I was perusing a thread about whether Tigurius was any good, and I was once again reminded of why the Space Marine and Eldar psychic powers were good: because they supported their respective armies instead of being expensive guns. So, here was what I was thinking:

Powers of Chaos
Doombolt
Warptime
Wind of Chaos
Gift of Chaos
Summon Daemons (cast at beginning of the turn, before reserves, immediately places unit of Summoned Daemons)

Powers of Nurgle
Nurgle's Rot
Noxious Touch (confers Poison (4+) on Sorcerer and unit)

Powers of Slaanesh
Lash of Submission
Seduction of Slaanesh (as Changeling, but psychic power)

Powers of Tzeentch
Bolt of Change
Oracle of Tzeentch (as Fateweaver's Oracle, but psychic power)
Sorcerous Feast (all psychic powers cast in the following player's turn immediately result in a Perils of the Warp regardless of what is rolled for a psychic test)

Powers of Khorne - note that these Daemonic Gifts would be instead of psychic powers
Aura of Rage (causes rage in all enemy units within 12")
Aura of Hate (As Skarbrand's Daemonic Gift)
Aura of Death (Models within 12" of Sorcerer re-roll successful saving throws)

Note that Sorcerers have the option of a Mark of Khorne, but cannot purchase psychic powers, although they can get the Daemonic Gifts listed above.

The Mark of Tzeentch is modified so that Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch can either cast two powers normally, or one power automatically without a psychic test.

What? Tzeentch being good at sorcery in the rules as well as in the fluff? Preposterous! I personally think Bolt of Change needs a do-over or serious point reduction. There's little incentive (other than range) to not take a melta instead. I could more likely see Noxious touch being a 2+ for just the caster. I totally second the Summon Daemon spell (as long as someone has to be sacrificed ).

@Nurglitch: Rules aside (I'm a little out of touch in this area) do you think that the Chaos psychic powers are deliberately thematically 'selfish' and abilities not helping others (lesser troops) is a deliberate design decision?

Thematically I think psychic powers should only affect models with the same Mark of Chaos as the caster and I really like the idea of summoned Daemons being affected by on table psykers as per your 'Summon Daemons' power.

I don't have any problem with powers affecting friendly units, or ones attacking enemy units. However what I do have a problem with are powers that force enemy units to do something other than take a wound or test of some sort. For instant, Lash of Submission. I'm sorry, I just don't like the idea of my ability to play being taken away from me, I just think its not any fun to have my opponent controlling my troops. Includes Aura of Rage and Death, Sourcerous Feast, etc... And all those abilities that "spawn" free units. It's fluffy and fun for the using player, but in my opinion it's just annoying and, well, not really that interesting fluff wise.

Not trying to start a schism, just putting a point of descent out.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable:

A Bolt of Change is all right on Ahriman, I think, but that's because he can actuate two other powers, and while it's effective on a Daemon Prince or Sorcerer with Warptime, it's pretty expensive. The advantage over a Combi-Weapon is that you don't have to take Terminator Armour, so you can combine it with a Bike or a Steed or a Jump Pack or Wings, and it can be used about ~6 times a game.

My gripe would be that it's basically an expensive heavy weapon, and the Chaos Space Marines already have plenty of weapons. Making it cheaper would be nice, but that would depend on how the powers themselves are pointed.

I think the thing about Tzeentch is that he's in favour of all sorts of magic, not just those of favoured pawns, so denying the Chaos army outright psychic defense is good: abandoning their own psychic defenses is what brought them to the bosom of Chaos, after all.

One note about the Oracle of Tzeentch: instead of disappearing back into the Warp, the Sorcerer would have to take a Morale check if he took a wound while the power was in play - the price of re-rollable invulnerable saving throws is a healthy paranoia!

George Spiggott:

Yes, I do. It's one of the pervasive themes of the Codex that Chaos Space Marines are selfish b*st*rds whose loss of selflessness is what has damned them. I think it's also reflected in the summoning of Greater Daemons, the 'normal' moral of regular Chaos Space Marines, and in few other little ways besides the background talking about what a bunch of selfish backstabbing b*st*rds they are. It's one of the things that drew me back into the game when it was released in 4th edition.

Unfortunately this kind of takes the wind of out psychic powers because a psychic power that's just a gun that misfires every so often is kind of boring. The best powers are stuff like Warptime, Gift of Chaos, and Lash of Submission that break the rules, e.i.: are magical.

I mean, personally, if I were writing the game, then the psychic powers would manipulate very basic mechanics of the game, but stuff like Doom, and Gate of Infinity, and Null Zone are all cool powers that help support a force like Librarians should be doing.

So the powers I've proposed are designed to support the Chaos Space Marine army while maintaining that thematic coherence of selfishness.

Tzeentch gets the extra power and the slight modification to the Mark of Tzeentch to emphasize their psychic power, particularly as it derives from pacts with daemons rather than any intrinsic ability. I'd imagine it's easier for less powerful Librarians to fall to Chaos, as they'd be more easily seduced by power, and more likely to over-reach themselves in the conduct of their duties. The Sorcerous Feast is essentially the Sorcerer paying the pipers (insert quote here about the mad high-pitched hideous piping lulling tenebrous gods to slumber...), while the Oracle of Tzeentch is them looking at the future around themselves and booking it when it doesn't work out.

That's why I put Noxious Touch as Poison 4+ for the unit, rather than Poison 2+ for the user as Codex Chaos Daemons, because Nurgle is a very generous God.

For Slaanesh I decided to go with the theme of treachery and domination, and the Changeling's rule suited it perfectly, despite being the power of a Tzeentchian Daemon in Codex: Chaos Daemons. Instead of tricking units into shooting each other, the Sorcerer forces the enemy to attack their own allies.

Finally for Khorne I figured it would be thematic if Sorcerers and Daemon Princes could take the Mark of Khorne, but instead of doing anything clever with it, by engaging in sorcery, they'd simply act as psychic amplifiers and re-broadcast their emotions out to affect both friend and foe.

i like this ALOT

i think maybe doombolt/summon as a standard
then add extra powers for x pts

also maybe summon would generate d6 daemons (like tervigon) or a daemon unit waiting in reserve?

how about if the sorcerer loses his last wound due to perils he is possesed? cue big scary MC thing

i agree that the sorcerers should have selfish powers so for some psychic defense
'chaos gate' upgrade for defiler (replaces turret)
has summon and other psychic powers avalible
also any psyker within radius/LOS must re-roll psychic test or suffers a hit etc
to represent raw chaos power




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Skinnattittar

do you hate it when shooting not only hits your troops but has a blast template as well!?

how unhelpful!

Would Ahriman have all of the proposed powers as well? (Of his god and universal only of course)

Also, what of Typhus, would he also have/auto pass Noixious Touch (which would be kinda redundant given that Manreaper is already Poisoned and following your other CCM rules, all Plague Renegades have Poisoned weapons anyway)?

Daemon-Archon:

Yes, Ahriman would.

Typus would automatically pass Noxious Touch because he has the Manreaper.

Also, I could go back and check but I'm pretty sure only Possessed of Nurgle would have Poisoned weapons while Renegades would be able to upgrade to Traitors of Nurgle by having the option to buy some or all of the Plague Marine traits).

The notion for that was that Possessed would be a combination of Renegade Marines and the appropriate Daemon, while Traitors would be Renegades that had been seduced to Chaos. Remember that in the background a Space Marine that's gone renegade will eventually turn to the Chaos Gods for aid, and slowly tread the path of Chaos to damnation.

The notion was that it would let you represent forces only recently reneging on their Oaths of Loyalty and other agreements with the Imperium (or having them cancelled due to Inquisitorial censure), forces that were directly corrupted by Chaos, forces on the way down, all the way to the Traitor Legions themselves, the worst of the worst besides the Daemons of Chaos themselves.

So, since Typhus would effectively have 2x Poisoned weapons, would he gain the Str=>Tough ability of Poisoned Weapons for all creatures (I.E Reroll to wound regaurdless of toughness) (for both melee or Wind of Chaos) Or would he also be able to consider his Nurgle Cloud poisoned (Str = 3P AP - 4+ to wound anyone T>3 anyone T<=3 4+ reroll).


Edit: Also, It's Typhus' Special rule of "Herald of Nurgle" that lets him auto-pass his pychic tests, not the Manreaper. The Manreaper is merely a Daemon Weapon of Nurgle that is also a Force Weapon. (Daemon Weapons of Nurgle grant +d6 attacks of Poisoned Power Weapon and +1Str also, if the d6 rolls a 1 you get 0 attacks for the turn and suffer a wound, with armor/FnP taken as normal)

Awesome! I love these powers and how they support units but are still very well rooted in chaos.

My only real issue is probably the strength of some of these powers. Obviously this is just proposed, but i feel some points should be made and some questions asked.

Starting at the top, for summoning daemons. Are these daemons already purchased and just summoned from reserves? or are they just summoned from the warp? if that is true then heavy restrictions and rule sets will be required to give it balance.

In my opinion nurgle and slaanesh are quite balanced, however lets make these powers god specific. Aka, noxious touch can oply be given to followers of nurgle.

Oracle of tzeentch seems fair, but it will have to be rather expensive point wise.
Sorcerous Feast needs some kind of a range on it, then it will be balanced. It seems overpowered, but not all armies use psykers.

Aura of Rage, i dont remember what rage does, so i will come back once i can access my rulebook.
Aura of Death this seems like too much. Perhaps limit it to just armor and cover? invulnerables arent affected, or perhaps limit the range. maybe its just me but the power overall seems like it would be enough to build an entire khorne army around it.

Overall i think if these psyker powers were added to the current chaos marines book, it would give sooo much more depth to the book as well as make chaos sorcerers worth taking.

overall, i approve!

Skinnattittar wrote:I don't have any problem with powers affecting friendly units, or ones attacking enemy units. However what I do have a problem with are powers that force enemy units to do something other than take a wound or test of some sort. For instant, Lash of Submission. I'm sorry, I just don't like the idea of my ability to play being taken away from me, I just think its not any fun to have my opponent controlling my troops. Includes Aura of Rage and Death, Sourcerous Feast, etc... And all those abilities that "spawn" free units. It's fluffy and fun for the using player, but in my opinion it's just annoying and, well, not really that interesting fluff wise.

As much as lash seems overpowered, this is just because people built armies around it. Its the spells that arent just modified guns that really fit the profile and are worth the points.

These powers are fun for the using player and in spirit of the game, it should be fun for opposing player. The unexpected makes things interesting. Certainly not a game breaker.

Daemon-Archon:

Yes, because Typhus already has the effect of Noxious Touch thanks to the Manreaper - so it's not really redundant because he already has it active all the time. I suppose he could cast it and extend that to his unit, so its redundant in that sense.

I like the notion of a poisoned Nurgle's Rot, but he already has Wind of Chaos for that sort of thing, and Nurgle's Rot is already nasty enough thanks to his Herald rule. You'll notice that the equivalent Daemonic Gift (Aura of Decay) is only S2 because it requires no casting.

mrwittwer:

The Summon Daemons power allows you to call a unit of Daemons in from reserve. Essentially it lets you leverage reserve units of Daemons by not leaving it to the reserve rolls, but rather a more likely psychic test.

The powers are indeed Power-specific. As now, there's the general powers, and then the powers only available to the Sorcerer or Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon with the right Mark of Chaos.

The Aura of Death is essentially an enhanced Null-Zone, or perhaps more exactly, a counter to the Oracle of Tzeentch. It does bear clarifying that I intended it to be all models, not just enemy models. Similar to the notion of Skarbrand's Aura of Hate, Khorne just wants to see stuff die so the fact that it works against the Sorcerer and his accompanying loons is just a bonus. Yes Mr. Sorcerer, Khorne hates your psychic ass. The basic idea behind Khorne-marked Sorcerers is that, like the original World Eater Librarians in Slaves to Darkness they've given up sorcery and dedicated themselves to being a conduit for Khorne to flow into the material universe. Little do they know that Khorne is going to kill them anyways and put their souls to work making weapons in his smithies. Or maybe they do, as the full-on Marked followers of Khorne seem to be okay with suicide. Presumably these are Librarians who repented their wicked ways before the Flesh Hounds got to them...

Something to note about the Oracle of Tzeentch is that unlike Kairos' Daemonic Gift you have to cast this one, so its vulnerable to awkward psychic defense. If you look at most of the Daemonic Gifts they're weaker than a corresponding psychic power because they aren't vulnerable to psychic defense.

Likewise with the Sorcerous Feast, as it prevents you from using a power like Warptime in your opponent's turn to defend yourself. As you say, not all armies use psyckers. Of those, many have invulnerable saving throws, and some will be willing to sacrifice the odd wound to expedience. Note that it doesn't prevent psychic powers from being active, and merely discourages people. Plus I like the idea of a Sorcerer being clever enough to pay his debts for the sorcererous power granted by daemons by cashing in the souls of opposing psyckers.

I'm glad you like it.