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Hey all,

I've put this list together from my little experience for quite specific needs - I'm only playing against one person just now, who uses Space wolves and just loves jump-packs and other fast attack choices. He, like me, has quite a limited range of models, so will probably only bring one rhino chassis (rhino, razorback or whirlwhind) and one speeder typhoon, maybe some Long fangs, and at least 2 squads of Skyclaws if he can fit them in, although he has some bikes too. I've got 50ish infantry models, 9 Rough Riders, and a Leman Russ on the way, and my budget precludes the purchase of chimeras until next month.
The other important need is a lack of beardyness - we're both playing casually, so my main hope is not to thrash him, but instead give him a run for his money, and possibly a few shocks or surprises. I'm not particularly good at getting my troops into a useful position, so end up playing quite reactively. (it probably doesn't help that I've watched a lot of Sharpe and my models are all Perry Twins Napoleonics ) So I'd love advice on how to use this force effectively, or what modifications would be needed in order to do so.
Anyway, thanks in advance, and on with the list!

HQ (120)

Company Command Squad (50)
Company Commander has Power Fist (15)
Regimental Standard (15)
Medic (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 120pts

TROOPS (375)

1st Platoon (295)

Platoon Command Squad (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 40pts

Infantry Squad #1 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #2 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #3 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Heavy Weapons Squad (60)
3x Missile Launchers (30)
Total: 90pts


Penal Legion Squad (80)

FAST ATTACK (95)

Rough Rider Squadron (55)
+4 extra Rough Riders (40)
Total: 95pts

HEAVY SUPPORT (160)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Hunter-Killer Missile (10)
Total: 160pts

OVERALL TOTAL: 750pts.

So, what's the best way to use this force? should I shuffle some units around or out? I'm already contemplating switching my missile launchers for autocannons, as I've heard that 'Bring it Down!' makes them a great deal more worthwhile than missile launchers against transports and light vehicles. Also possibly switching the grenade launchers in the Platoon Command Squad for flamers in order to throw a whole pack of armour saves at any incoming jump-pack troops or bikers.
I have a vague baiting plan in mind concerning the Penal Troopers - since in a past skirmish I rolled knife fighters for them, they give my opponent the willies, and I'm hoping the threat of them will be enough to give pause to his headlong charge.
Lastly, I have minis that can pass for Stormtroopers (Warzone Bauhaus Hussars for those in the know) and I know dropping them into rapid-fire range with Airborne Assault would squish any medium-sized marine unit, plus I have a squad of Veterans (Tallarn in Waffen SS DPM camo) that might make a better 2nd troops choice.

Now you know everything, and my fingers are tired. I look forward with anticipation...

AUTOCANNONS!!! SM killers. These will deal with any SM and light tanks. and if you dont want to thrash them to much bring them in latter in the game. If you dont want to place one of these in every squad a LR exterminater will do the trick its autocannon is heavy 4 and twinlinked. Though it sounds like you have a tight bugit so maybe just plain autocannons will do.

Bane wolf. The cem cannon on this is template and wounds on a +2 with ap 3 this eats through power armor like butter. It can also be pushed forwad right in there face. And the great thing about any hellhound varent is that from 4th edition no one is scared of them so when they meet them they never expect them to carve a path right down the middle of there attack. This works even better if they are consentrating their first attack on thoese oh so scary penal leagion troops. I support my penals with a sentanal or to as they all have scouting ability. and while they are drawing fire move in with my hellhound (Bane wolf works better for SM).

Iv never used rough riders so i dont no how they will stand up aginst SM fast attack. But i realy want to give them a try. Been trying to get my hands on some for a while now. id like to know if you have found them effective

Hi

i've not played against marines so not sure how helpful or practical this will be.

As imperialist Dog said the Bane wolf is good at eating marines, heard nothing but good stories from people.

If your going to have a medic in you CCS I would be tempted to give them plasma guns.

Also I would be tempted to drop the Infantry Platoon for Vets, a squad of vets with an AC and 3 x Grenade Launcher is only 95 points. You could have two and have 105 points spare to play with. you lose an order but get a better BS.

I would put HB's on the LR becuase it sounds like your oppenent hasn't got great AT strength.

Use the Krak missile launchers to take out small but powerful units e.g. devistator squads and commanders because marines are only T 4 (i say only) so they cut through wounds

imperialist dog wrote:AUTOCANNONS!!! SM killers. These will deal with any SM and light tanks. and if you dont want to thrash them to much bring them in latter in the game. If you dont want to place one of these in every squad a LR exterminater will do the trick its autocannon is heavy 4 and twinlinked. Though it sounds like you have a tight bugit so maybe just plain autocannons will do.

I never thought of autocannons as especially useful against SM - good for the rhinos, indeed, but I just figured against 3+ saves they perhaps didn't have the rate of fire to cause much damage? I think I will switch out the weaponry in the HW squad then. Although I want to keep my Infantry squads cheap and mobile, so will leave them with specials only.

Bane Wolf or Devil Dog will be a must when I can afford them. For now it's not possible unfortunately.

imperialist dog wrote:
Iv never used rough riders so i dont no how they will stand up aginst SM fast attack. But i realy want to give them a try. Been trying to get my hands on some for a while now. id like to know if you have found them effective

Definitely - last game I only had 7, and with their 18" or more assault range, I whomped them into a grey hunter squad, causing 5 wounds with power weapons before they could strike back. very much a 1-hit-wonder though, and they were massacred in the following assault phase by his Battle Leader. I think it might be worth keeping them in reserve if you tend to hug your own table edge, as their potential to arrive anywhere will hopefully make your opponent cautious.

SpankHammer III wrote:

i've not played against marines so not sure how helpful or practical this will be.
If your going to have a medic in you CCS I would be tempted to give them plasma guns.

Also I would be tempted to drop the Infantry Platoon for Vets, a squad of vets with an AC and 3 x Grenade Launcher is only 95 points. You could have two and have 105 points spare to play with. you lose an order but get a better BS.

No worries about the veracity of your aid, thanks for responding

Plasma guns are very tempting when playing against 3+ saves, so I've been trying to avoid the cliche. In previous games I've only taken one plasmagunner in a veteran squad, who tended to burn his hands on it and faint. Plus I see myself possibly assaulting in with my CCS (thus the standard and 'fist), so don't want to be wasting 44 points of models as casualties after not firing them on the way in.

The veteran squad idea is a nice one - even without the AC (to improve mobility), they can still throw out a lot of BS4 shots, and with FRF! orders they'll make even the humble imperial flashlight a scary proposition. I do get scared by the idea of running out of troops when the objective-rush is on, thus the platoon choice, and no platoon means no HW squad. But at the same time my style of play is still stuck on small-elite-force mode, since I used to play Slaaneshi CSM, so switching that round might suit my style of play a lot more. You've thrown me a nice one there... hmm...

lorrylemming wrote:I would put HB's on the LR becuase it sounds like your oppenent hasn't got great AT strength.

Use the Krak missile launchers to take out small but powerful units e.g. devistator squads and commanders because marines are only T 4 (i say only) so they cut through wounds

By HB's, do you mean hull-mounted or extra sponsons? his main AT hope is pinging me in the side or rear with his typhoon, but that doesn't scare me too much. I was going to leave the standard HB in the hull, as once the H/K is gone (at his speeder), I'll get the chance to add it to my torrent of standard firepower. Are sponsons worth the investment do you think?

Ah, advice on my missile launchers! lovely. targeting smaller units is good advice, thank you. And he'll be throwing Long Fangs around probably, so the loss of just a couple will dent his force quite a bit. I didn't quite get what you meant by 'cut through wounds', do you mean the Instant Death is going to be my friend? if so, and I keep the ML's, then you're right, it is indeed

Many thanks to you all, and keep it coming!

Captain Roderick wrote:I never thought of autocannons as especially useful against SM - good for the rhinos, indeed, but I just figured against 3+ saves they perhaps didn't have the rate of fire to cause much damage?

Im glad you are willing to try them out. They are the only weapon a IG squad can carry with any kind of rate of fire and that will wound a SM on 2+. They will also devistat any pesky scouts from holding down flanks. And 3 of these in a heavy weapons squad with the bring it down comand count as 3 twin linked autocannons. There goes that rhino with all them lovely men inside.

I would always incued a platoon in any IG army against any opponent. Its another officer with a squad of plasm/melta/flamer/GLs and 20 men to give orders to. I resently played where i combined a whole platoon of 30 men into one squad and FRFSRF looks very scary at that point backed up by somthing heavyer this platoon can hold a cover position easly against twice its points in SMs. But then if your style is a bit more complex then cover and fire mobility in valkyries and chimeras is probibly IGs second stratagy.

Iv always thought that the one hit wonder of the rough riders was their downfall. I dotn like the idea of having a whole squad out by the second round of real fighting. But if they can take out their points worth before that then maybe their worth it. Iv only recently started to get things in my army with a bit more mobility so they are defenetly on my list of things to include.

I do have one thing to say not to include that is storm troopers. i tryed out their new rules and boy did they suck. Their special rules are good. but the hot-shot lasgun just dose not cut the mustard. I tryed them out against SMs and S3 just is not good enough to realy make adiffrence without about 29 more to back them up. the AP3 sounds good but if you dont wound there is no point. But if your playing lost of friendlies then i would at least try them out for their special rules more then there wepons.

Captain Roderick wrote:Hey all,

I've put this list together from my little experience for quite specific needs - I'm only playing against one person just now, who uses Space wolves and just loves jump-packs and other fast attack choices. He, like me, has quite a limited range of models, so will probably only bring one rhino chassis (rhino, razorback or whirlwhind) and one speeder typhoon, maybe some Long fangs, and at least 2 squads of Skyclaws if he can fit them in, although he has some bikes too. I've got 50ish infantry models, 9 Rough Riders, and a Leman Russ on the way, and my budget precludes the purchase of chimeras until next month.
The other important need is a lack of beardyness - we're both playing casually, so my main hope is not to thrash him, but instead give him a run for his money, and possibly a few shocks or surprises. I'm not particularly good at getting my troops into a useful position, so end up playing quite reactively. (it probably doesn't help that I've watched a lot of Sharpe and my models are all Perry Twins Napoleonics ) So I'd love advice on how to use this force effectively, or what modifications would be needed in order to do so.
Anyway, thanks in advance, and on with the list!

The only thing I can say to this is if you want to deliberately throw fights, build a good list... and then throw fights when you want to. Building a bad list just means you never get to win. And it means if you ever decide to take your list down to your LFGS, you will just have a bunch of bad units... which were a waste of your time and money. If you wanna make games last, then get yourself a good list... and take crazy risks during the game. Stuff that wasn't a good idea, but makes the stories about the match better later. Stuff like that.

Captain Roderick wrote:HQ (120)

Company Command Squad (50)
Company Commander has Power Fist (15)
Regimental Standard (15)
Medic (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 120pts

Dump the medic. As it stands medics are way too expensive for what they do. In a 5 man squad of humans, which are terribly weak, the squad is likely to just die off before the medic has a chance to earn his points. Medics are sometimes good in games where you are locked into a firefight, but with the rules as they are now... close combat is where everyone is. IG are one of the few armies that prefer shooty. Fighting against Wolves and you are probably just wasting 30pts on something that you won't use. The other side to this is Plasma. Since you are going after Wolves, I strongly recommend plasma in all of your squads (which I would touch more on below). Plasma is the only option IG infantry has to touch Sv2+ and Sv3+. Lascannons can do it, but honestly, one shot per squad is not what you want against infantry. Lascannon are tank hunters, not anti personnel. Regimental Standard I like, but I see you more likely losing whole squads in melee before they have a chance to run. I would leave it in, but if you end up finding that the squads are just getting slaughtered before they get any rolls... take it out, and save the points. Power Fist is awesome, gives humans a fighting chance in melee. 1 per a 5 man squad... idk. If you get assaulted by wolves, they have the initiative. They will probably finish off the 5 T3 Sv5+ wounds in the party before you have a chance to use the fist at I1. Probably going to be more wasted points. Melee really isn't IG's strong suit. I recommend dropping the GLs which don't have enough AP against MEQ. Clear the squad of everything basically. Against most other armies, what you have in your CCS would be a perfect command squad (I actually use a similar HQ for my "blanaced, idk who I'm fighting" list. But what you have in your HQ is not good for Space Marines (or Wolves). Instead, take 4 Plasma Guns. CCS has BS4 and thats a lot of plasma, which you need to have. Space Wolves can deny you armor saves by default with their bolters, plasma just levels the field for you.

Captain Roderick wrote:TROOPS (375)

1st Platoon (295)

Platoon Command Squad (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 40pts

Infantry Squad #1 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #2 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #3 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

I personally think platoons as small point games are a waste. You spend lots of points on things you don't need, like a PCS. Honestly, at 750pts you shouldn't have a platoon's worth of infantry, and a PCS is pretty useless except in a few ways... especially since the CCS has all the best orders. I would drop the Platoon outright, and take Vets. Vets can have 3x special weapons per squad, and have better balistic skill. You won't beat wolves in melee, so you need to shoot them all before they can get to you. Vets will do that, a platoon will not. At a higher point game I would take a platoon just for the extra bodies to give cover to my vets and tanks, but under 1000pts I would just avoid platoons. Take a handful of Vets squads, and fill them with plasma. Forget the heavy weapons. Against wolves, you need to be mobile so you can avoid his fast squads. Besides the fact that none of your heavy weapons have AP3 or AP2 (besides las, and we talked about those). Plasma is the only option. Also, if you can find a way to sneak in a demo charge in with your vets somewhere... that would help you out SO much. A well placed demo can completely obliderate a squad of marines, and with 6 BS4 plasma shots on top of that, you could finish a whole squad in 1 round. Space Marines don't take casualties very well, they are expensive. IG have the ability to blow wolves away... and that's really the only way you can do it. If you don't think they hard and without mercy, they will reach CC and you will lose. Get some vets, get some plasma, keep the squads light and as cheap as possible. (Also, plasma will handle most transports... short of a Land Raider... so they are perfect against your average mechanize space marine list.)

Captain Roderick wrote:Heavy Weapons Squad (60)
3x Missile Launchers (30)
Total: 90pts

This is an issue. Missle launchers are terrible. In no situation are they better than the other options available. The math has been done. Against vehicles, the AC is better against Av10, 11, and 12 and the lascannon is better at Av12, 13, and 14. Against hordes, the AC, HB and Mortar excel, and against MEQ and TEQ none of these are great options as none have enough AP to do much of anything. (Now the missle laucher has enough AP to hit marines, but 1 shot weapons are not going to bring down a squad of 10 marines before they reach your lines.) Now consider that the ML is more expensive on top of being less effective. The choice is clear. AND against the heavies tanks, a ML can't even pen. It is all around useless. If you go with the versatility arguement, I would say that you could buy a AC and a Mortar for the price of a ML and they do a better job in both areas that a ML "should" be able to handle. Also, on top of being 10pts cheaper, a Mortar's blast is barrage, allowing it to cause pinning, ignore cover, and ignore LoS. I am not sure of anyone on Dakkadakka who brings MLs over the other options you have available. Although, I recommend you drop the platoon anyway.

Captain Roderick wrote:Penal Legion Squad (80)

Can't imagine what you think a bunch of guys with knifes are going to do against a bunch of super humans. Even with the special abilites, this squad simply does not have the armor piercing to crack a space marine's armor. They have no options for power weapons of any kind. They are just normal humans, WS3 S3 T3, with no great armor (altho wolves will likely have weapons denying what little armor you have). Drop this squad, as it is just dead meat. Take Vets, all vets.

Captain Roderick wrote:FAST ATTACK (95)

Rough Rider Squadron (55)
+4 extra Rough Riders (40)
Total: 95pts

Ok, this is where things get more fun. Against MEQ and TEQ, there aren't many things your infantry can do. We simply aren't mighty warriors. However, we do have the might of the Mechanicum at our desposal. Unfortunately, that isn't what you have selected here, lol. Rough Riders are just more squishy humans. Worse than that, they are on horses... and you want them to go into melee against Space Marines. If you do the math, Rough riders have wicked powerful weapons... once. But even then, you only have 9 S5 hits at WS3. Honestly, you are going to miss with 2/3 because space marines are better fighters... then you are going to not wound with another 1/6. Then all that is left is a squad of humans on horses with S3 garbage trying to stay alive long enough to run away. Rough riders really are just a miserable squad, and I hate to say it... but they are useless in any situation you can find for them.

What you can take with your fast selection is a few options. I would recommend Banewolves. Normally I am a huge fan of the Hellhound, but against marines you need that AP3. Poison is really sorta stupid on this tank. Wounding on a 2+ is not hard, all it means is you beat the enemies toughness by 2 strength. Marines have T4 so any weapon S6 or higher wounds on a 2+. Almost all of the vehicles you could buy have S6 or better, so the poison is sorta silly, sorta handy against MCs though. Other options would be Vendettas. A fast skimmer transport would keep you 2 steps ahead of even bikes or jetpacks. It would keep your army mobile enough to do the damage you need to do, and deny CC to your enemy. Beyond that, a Vendetta has lascannon everywhere, perfect for picking off armor hiding wolves inside. Then when you are out of armor, those las can be turned on the infantry. There are 3 and they are twin linked, so there is a good chance of doing some real damage even with 1 shot each.

Captain Roderick wrote:HEAVY SUPPORT (160)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Hunter-Killer Missile (10)
Total: 160pts

Beautiful tank. HK is not something I take anymore. BS3 one shot is sorta a waste. BS3 is 50%, and even with S8, you can only get as good as a 2+ which means you might not always wound. So your chances to hit with an HK are less than 50%. Since it is one shot, you can read it as 10 pts spent on something that you will most likely miss with. I recommend rolling those points into something more useful. A hull lascannon is great for picking off tanks, which with the way the Lumbering Behemoth rules are written works really well. OR because you know you are up against space marines, maybe plasma cannons. You can fire one, and still move and fire your main cannon. If you stay still you can get 3 blasts over 1 squad all with enough AP to deny saves. You could easilly expect to obliterate a whole squad in 1 turn. Another optoin would be a Hydra, a lot of twinlinked autocannon shots... with extra range... and they ignore cover from bikes and other vehicles moving very fast. If you know your opponent will bring bikes, I recommend a Hydra, cheap and powerful.

Captain Roderick wrote:So, what's the best way to use this force? should I shuffle some units around or out? I'm already contemplating switching my missile launchers for autocannons, as I've heard that 'Bring it Down!' makes them a great deal more worthwhile than missile launchers against transports and light vehicles. Also possibly switching the grenade launchers in the Platoon Command Squad for flamers in order to throw a whole pack of armour saves at any incoming jump-pack troops or bikers.
I have a vague baiting plan in mind concerning the Penal Troopers - since in a past skirmish I rolled knife fighters for them, they give my opponent the willies, and I'm hoping the threat of them will be enough to give pause to his headlong charge.
Lastly, I have minis that can pass for Stormtroopers (Warzone Bauhaus Hussars for those in the know) and I know dropping them into rapid-fire range with Airborne Assault would squish any medium-sized marine unit, plus I have a squad of Veterans (Tallarn in Waffen SS DPM camo) that might make a better 2nd troops choice.

Not sure on some of your tactics. I am fairly certain that GLs and Flamers are going to be less than useful against Marines, and I am also certain that you won't win any melee fights either. Your best options are plasma and tanks. I would definately swap out ACs for MLs but against marines, I wouldn't take either. If anything you want las for against the tanks, and then you can use the AP2 against the marines later when you run out of tanks to shoot at.

Captain Roderick wrote:

imperialist dog wrote:AUTOCANNONS!!! SM killers. These will deal with any SM and light tanks. and if you dont want to thrash them to much bring them in latter in the game. If you dont want to place one of these in every squad a LR exterminater will do the trick its autocannon is heavy 4 and twinlinked. Though it sounds like you have a tight bugit so maybe just plain autocannons will do.

I never thought of autocannons as especially useful against SM - good for the rhinos, indeed, but I just figured against 3+ saves they perhaps didn't have the rate of fire to cause much damage? I think I will switch out the weaponry in the HW squad then. Although I want to keep my Infantry squads cheap and mobile, so will leave them with specials only.

Bane Wolf or Devil Dog will be a must when I can afford them. For now it's not possible unfortunately.

I agree with everything. ACs are not good against marines, any more than anything else that doesn't have AP3. They are good against light armor, but they will be useless against marines themselves. Against a very fast melee army like wolves mobility is key. Banewolf would be a great choice for this list, no denying it. I have no idea why Imperialist Dog recommended ACs against marines, that's just a bad idea.

Captain Roderick wrote:

imperialist dog wrote:
Iv never used rough riders so i dont no how they will stand up aginst SM fast attack. But i realy want to give them a try. Been trying to get my hands on some for a while now. id like to know if you have found them effective

Definitely - last game I only had 7, and with their 18" or more assault range, I whomped them into a grey hunter squad, causing 5 wounds with power weapons before they could strike back. very much a 1-hit-wonder though, and they were massacred in the following assault phase by his Battle Leader. I think it might be worth keeping them in reserve if you tend to hug your own table edge, as their potential to arrive anywhere will hopefully make your opponent cautious.

Look at the numbers, they simply do not have the WS or number of attacks. I think if you got 5 wounds with 7 riders you got VERY VERY lucky (7 riders would have 8 attacks with the lances... at WS3 versus WS4 you should have only gotten 2 or 3 wounds). And no one is denying they are useless after the first assault. They are a suicide squad, and there are better places to put those kinds of points. If you put in Marbo, you could do more damage, for cheaper, and he has a chance of surviving after he throws his democharge.

Captain Roderick wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

i've not played against marines so not sure how helpful or practical this will be.
If your going to have a medic in you CCS I would be tempted to give them plasma guns.

Also I would be tempted to drop the Infantry Platoon for Vets, a squad of vets with an AC and 3 x Grenade Launcher is only 95 points. You could have two and have 105 points spare to play with. you lose an order but get a better BS.

No worries about the veracity of your aid, thanks for responding

Plasma guns are very tempting when playing against 3+ saves, so I've been trying to avoid the cliche. In previous games I've only taken one plasmagunner in a veteran squad, who tended to burn his hands on it and faint. Plus I see myself possibly assaulting in with my CCS (thus the standard and 'fist), so don't want to be wasting 44 points of models as casualties after not firing them on the way in.

The veteran squad idea is a nice one - even without the AC (to improve mobility), they can still throw out a lot of BS4 shots, and with FRF! orders they'll make even the humble imperial flashlight a scary proposition. I do get scared by the idea of running out of troops when the objective-rush is on, thus the platoon choice, and no platoon means no HW squad. But at the same time my style of play is still stuck on small-elite-force mode, since I used to play Slaaneshi CSM, so switching that round might suit my style of play a lot more. You've thrown me a nice one there... hmm...

Lasguns are not scary. They are never scary. If you had a squad of 50, firing rapid fire lasguns with FRFSRF, you would have 150 shots. Against Space Marines, after all the numbers crunch, IIRC you are left with something like 8.3 unsaved wounds. 150, to 8.3. That's not scary, that's sad. My recommendation is to not waste orders on FRFSRF, and to never count on your lasguns to do anything. Plan like your army isn't armed with anything, then you are prepared, and when the lasguns get that one lucky shot in... you get to be happy you got a little extra killy from that squad for the turn. The rest of this looks good, plasma, demo charges, and mobile vets squads will win this fight for you.

Captain Roderick wrote:

lorrylemming wrote:I would put HB's on the LR becuase it sounds like your oppenent hasn't got great AT strength.

Use the Krak missile launchers to take out small but powerful units e.g. devistator squads and commanders because marines are only T 4 (i say only) so they cut through wounds

By HB's, do you mean hull-mounted or extra sponsons? his main AT hope is pinging me in the side or rear with his typhoon, but that doesn't scare me too much. I was going to leave the standard HB in the hull, as once the H/K is gone (at his speeder), I'll get the chance to add it to my torrent of standard firepower. Are sponsons worth the investment do you think?

Ah, advice on my missile launchers! lovely. targeting smaller units is good advice, thank you. And he'll be throwing Long Fangs around probably, so the loss of just a couple will dent his force quite a bit. I didn't quite get what you meant by 'cut through wounds', do you mean the Instant Death is going to be my friend? if so, and I keep the ML's, then you're right, it is indeed

Many thanks to you all, and keep it coming!

Against space marines, plasma sponsoons would add a lot of firepower... but they will make your tank a very big target, and a bit of a point sink. If you protect your tank well, plasma sponsoons will ruin his day. You really should not take MLs however, I really really recommend you don't use them at all. Do the math, look at how innefective they are. And consider that they are crap, and more expensive than your other options. If you are looking for instant death, go for lascannons or a second Leman Russ, they will be more reliable, and will work on Av14 as well.

imperialist dog wrote:

Captain Roderick wrote:I never thought of autocannons as especially useful against SM - good for the rhinos, indeed, but I just figured against 3+ saves they perhaps didn't have the rate of fire to cause much damage?

Im glad you are willing to try them out. They are the only weapon a IG squad can carry with any kind of rate of fire and that will wound a SM on 2+. They will also devistat any pesky scouts from holding down flanks. And 3 of these in a heavy weapons squad with the bring it down comand count as 3 twin linked autocannons. There goes that rhino with all them lovely men inside.

I would always incued a platoon in any IG army against any opponent. Its another officer with a squad of plasm/melta/flamer/GLs and 20 men to give orders to. I resently played where i combined a whole platoon of 30 men into one squad and FRFSRF looks very scary at that point backed up by somthing heavyer this platoon can hold a cover position easly against twice its points in SMs. But then if your style is a bit more complex then cover and fire mobility in valkyries and chimeras is probibly IGs second stratagy.

Iv always thought that the one hit wonder of the rough riders was their downfall. I dotn like the idea of having a whole squad out by the second round of real fighting. But if they can take out their points worth before that then maybe their worth it. Iv only recently started to get things in my army with a bit more mobility so they are defenetly on my list of things to include.

I do have one thing to say not to include that is storm troopers. i tryed out their new rules and boy did they suck. Their special rules are good. but the hot-shot lasgun just dose not cut the mustard. I tryed them out against SMs and S3 just is not good enough to realy make adiffrence without about 29 more to back them up. the AP3 sounds good but if you dont wound there is no point. But if your playing lost of friendlies then i would at least try them out for their special rules more then there wepons.

I have no idea what he's talking about. None of this makes sense to me. BiD orders only work against vehicles, so they will be useless against infantry, especially infantry with Sv3+. On top of this, they have no means of getting around cover, so scouts would be very save from the 6 AC shots you send their way... half of which you will miss with... because of your crappy BS3. If you blow up a Rhino, the men inside can make an emergency disembark... and will be fine. If it explodes, they take a few light AP- wounds... which they will probably save against... because they are space marines and have Sv3+. Blowing up a transport means nothing to a Space Marine player. Vets can bring just as many special weapons as a PCS, and have better BS... and they don't have two squads of tag alongs that have awful BS and can only take 1 weapon per squad. Vets will give you so much more bang for your buck. Look at it like this: For 1 bare platoon, it costs 130 pts. That's for 6 special weapons, at BS3. 2 Squads of Vets also have 6 special weapons, and they have BS4 and cost 140pts. If you want more special weapons after that... another squad in the platoon costs 50 more points... but only gets you 1 more weapon. Another vets costs you 70 more pts and gets you 3 more. It is just more points efficient to take vets. And the BS4 will make a HUGE difference. Platoons are only good for heavy weapons squads and bodies. If you need people on the table to die for something... like protecting a tank... or providing cover. Take a platoon, if you want firepower... take vets. Also vets can take demo charges, which you really could use here. Also a PCS has 4 special weapons, and only 5 men. That means it is half as powerful as other squads. Basically its just a glass cannon. If your opponenet is smart he will target it first to stop it from doing any more damage. I already explained to you why FRFSRF and lasguns are awful. I encourage you to do the math yourself. They really just aren't worth it. The dice are fun, but their worthlessness isn't.

As for the rough riders and storm troopers. I agree, neither are worth their points. The riders simply are useless, and the stormtroops are only good for a few things... and they are so expensive, you could take other options from the IG army that could do them better and cheaper. Vets generally outdo anything stormtroopers can do.

Overall I recommend more vets, more plasma, more democharges... and more tanks.

Ruduce the average cost of your soldiers. Drop the fist and medic to purchase more plasma or meltaguns.

Phew!

First up, thanks for the hiauge response.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
it means if you ever decide to take your list down to your LFGS, you will just have a bunch of bad units... which were a waste of your time and money.

Unfortunately never ever going to happen. As I said at the beggining, most of my models are non-GW, and very flavoursome. And who can blame me for wanting to only spend £15 on 50 odd infantry? If your local gaming store isn't a GW chain, as I hear is often the case in the US, then you're a lucky lad. And I'd recommend you check out some alternate model suppliers like the godly Perry Twins: http://www.perry-miniatures.com/

Lt Lathrop wrote:
If you wanna make games last, then get yourself a good list... and take crazy risks during the game. Stuff that wasn't a good idea, but makes the stories about the match better later. Stuff like that.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with your key wargaming philosophy there. As I've already hinted above, I'm a casual gamer, and want to have a fluffy army that isn't therefore the best for equivalent points, and certainly isn't custom-built to hurt my opponent. Given this disagreement, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of your post works out for me
However in a few games' time we are planning on at some point playing the goobiest lists we can just for comparison, and I'll definitely be following your style in that game, so your advice will be invaluable.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Dump the medic. As it stands medics are way too expensive for what they do. In a 5 man squad of humans, which are terribly weak, the squad is likely to just die off before the medic has a chance to earn his points.

That's a point fair taken - and 30pts is a lot to me just now, and could buy me two bodyguards or one advisor for the CCS. Bodyguards are most likely, as they will probably do more to keep my senior officer in the game than the medic would.

Lt Lathrop wrote: The other side to this is Plasma....Space Wolves can deny you armor saves by default with their bolters, plasma just levels the field for you.

I already made my feelings on plasma weaponry apparent in a previous reply to this thread. However, the armorsave remark is a good point - although I don't see it as a true leveler, since bolters wound on a 3+ and plasmaguns on a 2+. It would be quite nice to have my oppo scared of getting too close to me, but the long and the short of it is that an archaic Napoleonic PDF force loaded up to the teeth with plasma just doesn't feel right.

Lt Lathrop wrote:I personally think platoons as small point games are a waste. You spend lots of points on things you don't need, like a PCS. Honestly, at 750pts you shouldn't have a platoon's worth of infantry, and a PCS is pretty useless except in a few ways... especially since the CCS has all the best orders.

fair enough from one point of view, but there are benefits - PCS is a scoring unit, and gives you another order per turn. A third FRF! order can make all the difference in trying to drive off/destroy another nearby enemy infantry squad, and a MMM! order can snag an objective or get my RR's into charge range this turn.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
I would drop the Platoon outright, and take Vets....Take a handful of Vets squads, and fill them with plasma...Get some vets, get some plasma, keep the squads light and as cheap as possible.

Are you by any chance a fan of plasma guns? Not my style (yet)... anyway, you're totally right that you'd get more kills in at range with vets, but it's pretty likely that at least one squad will fall to long-range shooting and/or assault, and good use of terrain can get a small squad of skyclaws into assault range without any plasmaguns getting a bead on them. Plus, in this list my platoon gives me 5 scoring units, and 43 wounds. your version would have 30 wounds that are still just T3 5+ saves. And it's certainly not as cheap and light as what I'm already going with (55pts for 10 bodies, always projecting a blast template 24" even when moving vs 115pts for 10 bodies limited in mobility by rapid fire rules). I also see further down that you don't have much love for the trusty flashlight - well my 3 IG squads with FRF! will pump out 54 shots up to 24" = 27 hits = 9 wounds = 3 dead marines, cover or no. Doesn't seem that much, but combine that with the GL's and the rest of the platoon's weapons, and suddenly it's a heftier proposition. a more intimidating (and humiliating) one too, since marines are always being pinged by plasma. Anyway let's not argue the maths, I know your way is more powerful, but that's not the point.
Also, don't get me wrong, I may have to switch from platoon to multiple vet squads in a future game as I have mentioned in an earlier post, I just want to try out this list or something very similar and get some tips on how to use it effectively for what it is.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Missle launchers are terrible.

I'll probably switch to AC's, since cover saves make that AP3 weapon a bit of a waste, and it frees up 15 points to play with.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Can't imagine what you think a bunch of guys with knifes are going to do against a bunch of super humans.

You may have missed that they get +1 attack and rending if they roll that up. I'm not saying it's always going to come up (and psychopaths feels pretty useless, but in a counter-charge supporting my CCS they might drop a few marines simultaneously), but when it does, the maths says 31 attacks on the charge = 5 rending hits = 5 dead marines. That makes them a big threat, at least in my opponent's eyes, which means they also make good bait to keep him away from my objective-holders, and stubborn with the standard for backup should also help keep any survivors locked into combat, holding him back a little longer, possibly long enough for my CCS or RR's to finish the job.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Honestly, you are going to miss with 2/3 because space marines are better fighters...

A great deal of comment has already been made on Rough Riders in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267625.page - I'd suggest you read the interesting suggestions on their use by freddieyu1 especially.
referring to the above quote, if you check the rules, WS3 hits WS4 on a 4+. I've done the maths, and I'll get 6.33(recurring) wounds with my 9 Rough Riders on the charge - that's 95 points of marines, and their cost paid for. Since there's no way I'll charge them at a target that hasn't been shot up already, they will wipe out one enemy squad for me, possibly the one intending to seize my objective. I'm not going to repeat everything in the above thread in detail, suffice it to say:
1. they scare marine players, irrationally so.
2. they project an 18" aura of that fear around your forces if you have them hidden up back, which causes your opponent to rethink his strategy, surrendering some of the initiative to you.
3. if they die and my scoring units don't, they've done their job.
4. Assault capability is something the guard lacks, and helps to add flexibility and style to your army.
5. I have the models. They're not GW, they're WW1 British lancers from Renegade Minis, and they were cheap. And I can't afford vendettas or banewolves, as I have already said above several times, although I will probably pick up a hellhound box next month.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
HK is not something I take anymore. BS3 one shot is sorta a waste.

OK, thanks, good point. I was planning on using it against a transport or Speeder, but I might drop it and upgrade the HB to a lascannon, costing me another 5 points but giving many more chances.

Lt Lathrop wrote:OR because you know you are up against space marines, maybe plasma cannons.

*enters Woody Allen mode* What is this with the plasma cannons? All the time with the plasma, yadda yadda yadda... Anyway I get the point, but I don't have the points, if you know what I mean.

Lt Lathrop wrote: Another optoin would be a Hydra, a lot of twinlinked autocannon shots... with extra range... and they ignore cover from bikes and other vehicles moving very fast. If you know your opponent will bring bikes, I recommend a Hydra, cheap and powerful.

Now that is something that will be on my wish list for some time. If I had the models, I'd want some hydras and griffons in order to throw out some serious firepower, but by jove those things are expensive these days (FW seems to be the only source). I know you probably don't like griffons, but I think an accurate Str 6 pinning pie will seriously wear down anyone's patience.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Not sure on some of your tactics.

I've noticed But as we've established, I'm not going for a conventional force or style of play.

Lt Lathrop wrote: I I am also certain that you won't win any melee fights either. I would definately swap out ACs for MLs but against marines, I wouldn't take either. If anything you want las for against the tanks, and then you can use the AP2 against the marines later when you run out of tanks to shoot at.

I've noticed in past games that lascannons are really good at not earning their points-worth. Due to their static nature and huge threat value, enemy tanks and transports will just avoid LOS at all costs, and troops will hug cover, making that AP2 less effective.
As far as melee goes, I only want to be mopping up after a round of shooting - it should be about finishing off the survivors, not actually charging a full squad and expecting to win.

Lt Lathrop wrote: I have no idea why Imperialist Dog recommended ACs against marines, that's just a bad idea.

I think he was probably just trying to stick with the flavour and style of my existing force - certainly I'm tempted to use napoleonic-style gun carriages for AC teams.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Look at the numbers, they simply do not have the WS or number of attacks. I think if you got 5 wounds with 7 riders you got VERY VERY lucky (7 riders would have 8 attacks with the lances... at WS3 versus WS4 you should have only gotten 2 or 3 wounds)....If you put in Marbo, you could do more damage, for cheaper, and he has a chance of surviving after he throws his democharge.

Actually, each RR gets 2 attacks on the charge and the sergeant 3. The only bonus they don't get is 2 hand weapons - they still get a charge bonus.
As far as Marbo is concerned, aargh is all I can say. Effective yes, fluffy definitely not. The point is IG is safety in numbers - Rambo is an awesome film but if it was made in the 40K universe, he'd be Astartes.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Lasguns are not scary. ...The rest of this looks good, plasma, demo charges, and mobile vets squads will win this fight for you.

I'll let you know how I get on, certainly the math isn't great but vs units with cover saves, the more dice being rolled the better. I may well end up switching to leaner and meaner in the future.

Lt Lathrop wrote:I have no idea what he's talking about. None of this makes sense to me. BiD orders only work against vehicles, so they will be useless against infantry, especially infantry with Sv3+.

he was talking about popping rhinos, so BiD works. And popping rhinos or razorbacks is useful, because it reduces mobility in the enemy force, which is already small, so allows me to concentrate my fire on more immediate targets and whittle them down.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Look at it like this: For 1 bare platoon, it costs 130 pts. That's for 6 special weapons, at BS3. 2 Squads of Vets also have 6 special weapons, and they have BS4 and cost 140pts. If you want more special weapons after that... another squad in the platoon costs 50 more points... but only gets you 1 more weapon. Another vets costs you 70 more pts and gets you 3 more. It is just more points efficient to take vets. And the BS4 will make a HUGE difference. Platoons are only good for heavy weapons squads and bodies. If you need people on the table to die for something... like protecting a tank... or providing cover. Take a platoon, if you want firepower... take vets.
Overall I recommend more vets, more plasma, more democharges... and more tanks.

Your maths I cannot fault sir. I'll definitely try it with my next list. Thanks again for the feedback!

imperialist dog wrote:
I would always incued a platoon in any IG army against any opponent. Its another officer with a squad of plasm/melta/flamer/GLs and 20 men to give orders to. I resently played where i combined a whole platoon of 30 men into one squad and FRFSRF looks very scary at that point backed up by somthing heavyer this platoon can hold a cover position easly against twice its points in SMs.

Ah, the 30-man FRF! dream. I tried it once, and it definitely seems the best thing to do in a killpoint fight. Won me that battle in fact, since despite the fact they did little or nothing, they did attract a lot of fire that might have squished a smaller squad. Very difficult to maneuver with though. The potential for that option is one of the reasons I want to stick with a platoon instead of vets for now, it's just too damn napoleonic for me to want to miss out.

imperialist dog wrote:Iv always thought that the one hit wonder of the rough riders was their downfall. I dotn like the idea of having a whole squad out by the second round of real fighting. But if they can take out their points worth before that then maybe their worth it. Iv only recently started to get things in my army with a bit more mobility so they are defenetly on my list of things to include.

See above link and discussion for good uses of rough riders

imperialist dog wrote:I do have one thing to say not to include that is storm troopers.

I'm still tempted to get my fingers burnt - dropping a 9-man Air Assault unit with no special weapons into rapid fire range is 18 shots = 12 hits = 4 dead marines, enough to ruin a pack of long-fangs and divert the enemy's attention wonderfully. Then again, I don't have 9 models. I guess they'll stay on the shelf...

tokugawa wrote:Ruduce the average cost of your soldiers. Drop the fist and medic to purchase more plasma or meltaguns.

Dropping the medic is sound, I'm still tempted by the fist to allow me to finish off something that wouldn't die in the shooting phase. From the way the wind is blowing, next game I'm going to be throwing a lot more melta and plasma weapons about, so we'll see how it ends up.

2hrs after starting this reply, I can go and play in the snow again

Thanks all!

Snow is so cool! working an army on a budget sucks but it is also part of the chalange and that is the excitment. then again im shoving my wories out the window and going to play in the snow too.

Captain Roderick wrote:Phew!

First up, thanks for the hiauge response.

Np, I try to be complete. Sorta getting a reputation for it I guess... and my inbox keeps getting requests for list reviews. Which is good, I suppose I must know what I'm doing If you ever want advice, and like the stuff I said... feel free to ask for more. (I will admit I'm not perfect.) *EDIT* as I figured out below as I botched up all the math on the RRs.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:
it means if you ever decide to take your list down to your LFGS, you will just have a bunch of bad units... which were a waste of your time and money.

Unfortunately never ever going to happen. As I said at the beggining, most of my models are non-GW, and very flavoursome. And who can blame me for wanting to only spend £15 on 50 odd infantry? If your local gaming store isn't a GW chain, as I hear is often the case in the US, then you're a lucky lad. And I'd recommend you check out some alternate model suppliers like the godly Perry Twins: http://www.perry-miniatures.com/

Lt Lathrop wrote:
If you wanna make games last, then get yourself a good list... and take crazy risks during the game. Stuff that wasn't a good idea, but makes the stories about the match better later. Stuff like that.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with your key wargaming philosophy there. As I've already hinted above, I'm a casual gamer, and want to have a fluffy army that isn't therefore the best for equivalent points, and certainly isn't custom-built to hurt my opponent. Given this disagreement, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of your post works out for me
However in a few games' time we are planning on at some point playing the goobiest lists we can just for comparison, and I'll definitely be following your style in that game, so your advice will be invaluable.

Oh I am a huge fan for fluff. But you can build a good list, and cover the fluff over it. If you have a set theme going in, that is fine... but I generally make my models seperate from making my lists. Then when I make a competitive list, I go and pick out the models I want and work out the fluff then. I'll say more on what I actually play below, because it is relevant there.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Dump the medic. As it stands medics are way too expensive for what they do. In a 5 man squad of humans, which are terribly weak, the squad is likely to just die off before the medic has a chance to earn his points.

That's a point fair taken - and 30pts is a lot to me just now, and could buy me two bodyguards or one advisor for the CCS. Bodyguards are most likely, as they will probably do more to keep my senior officer in the game than the medic would.

The way you can distribute wounds, and then pull them off your CC with bodyguards is really good if you know how to play it. If you get two wounds, take one put it on the CC and the bodyguard and try to save. If you fail both, you can put them both on the bodyguard. Basically each time you lose a bodyguard, try to kill him 2 or 3 times so you can protect others in the squad. Also bodyguards is decent in CC, so they are a nice addition if you want to put a power fist in the squad, the squad will actually stay alive long enough to use it. Played in an Apoc game once and had my CC survive two turns of direct fire (guy was really good with his dice) from a Baneblade, then survived a direct hit from Ork Roks (an apoc special ability) and then an assault from a 30 boyz mob of orks with a warboss. I did get STUPID lucky, but he wouldn't have made it through the 2 turns of Baneblade shots without the bodyguards.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote: The other side to this is Plasma....Space Wolves can deny you armor saves by default with their bolters, plasma just levels the field for you.

I already made my feelings on plasma weaponry apparent in a previous reply to this thread. However, the armorsave remark is a good point - although I don't see it as a true leveler, since bolters wound on a 3+ and plasmaguns on a 2+. It would be quite nice to have my oppo scared of getting too close to me, but the long and the short of it is that an archaic Napoleonic PDF force loaded up to the teeth with plasma just doesn't feel right.

Are you looking to make something that looks like a Steel Legion or Mordian Iron Guard? There just really aren't any other options. Plasma is the only option against space marines, unless you wanna use melta... but that's 12" and they can assault at that range.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:I personally think platoons as small point games are a waste. You spend lots of points on things you don't need, like a PCS. Honestly, at 750pts you shouldn't have a platoon's worth of infantry, and a PCS is pretty useless except in a few ways... especially since the CCS has all the best orders.

fair enough from one point of view, but there are benefits - PCS is a scoring unit, and gives you another order per turn. A third FRF! order can make all the difference in trying to drive off/destroy another nearby enemy infantry squad, and a MMM! order can snag an objective or get my RR's into charge range this turn.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
I would drop the Platoon outright, and take Vets....Take a handful of Vets squads, and fill them with plasma...Get some vets, get some plasma, keep the squads light and as cheap as possible.

Are you by any chance a fan of plasma guns? Not my style (yet)... anyway, you're totally right that you'd get more kills in at range with vets, but it's pretty likely that at least one squad will fall to long-range shooting and/or assault, and good use of terrain can get a small squad of skyclaws into assault range without any plasmaguns getting a bead on them. Plus, in this list my platoon gives me 5 scoring units, and 43 wounds. your version would have 30 wounds that are still just T3 5+ saves. And it's certainly not as cheap and light as what I'm already going with (55pts for 10 bodies, always projecting a blast template 24" even when moving vs 115pts for 10 bodies limited in mobility by rapid fire rules). I also see further down that you don't have much love for the trusty flashlight - well my 3 IG squads with FRF! will pump out 54 shots up to 24" = 27 hits = 9 wounds = 3 dead marines, cover or no. Doesn't seem that much, but combine that with the GL's and the rest of the platoon's weapons, and suddenly it's a heftier proposition. a more intimidating (and humiliating) one too, since marines are always being pinged by plasma. Anyway let's not argue the maths, I know your way is more powerful, but that's not the point.
Also, don't get me wrong, I may have to switch from platoon to multiple vet squads in a future game as I have mentioned in an earlier post, I just want to try out this list or something very similar and get some tips on how to use it effectively for what it is.

I actually don't use a lot of plasma, as I generally write balanced lists, and most of my opponents tend to be orks and nids and other low armor races. I personally use tanks for my anti-MEQ as I don't usually see a lot of it. But if I knew I was going to go up against a space marine player, or my friend who plays an all Terminator list, I would retool my list to take all plasma. Their effect is undeniable. This game is a game of numbers, just do the math and you can see how effective things are. Then after that its all tactics once you start playing. As for the wounds... doesn't matter how many wounds you have if you don't have any guns. You could have 1000 men, but if you don't have any guns that can hurt marines... they just get that many more killpoints. Which is my next point, scoring units are good... yes. But if you have a bunch of scoring units that count as points if your enemy kills them. If you can bring 10 scoring units, its great... but only if they have a good use. If they are just cannon fodder for the sake of having them... they are a liability. (This isn't talking about situations where you want to have infantry to kill... like if you were going to bubblewrap your tanks in infantry... which is actually a good tactic to use, lol.) I still cannot say enough times how bad lasguns are, and how much of a waste FRFSRF is. If you have plasma, you can give Fire on My Target! and deny cover saves. Or if you wanna shoot at vehicles with your plasma, you could order BiD. Pretty much every order is more effective than even 50 more lasgun shots. I normally would agree with you that GLs are great, as are flamers. Again I normally never take plasma, but writing a list specifically for space marines, plasma is the way to go. But these are just my powergaming suggestions. If you have reasons not to take something, or to take something... other than having the most powerful list... then your welcome to avoid my advice if you don't want to, haha.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Can't imagine what you think a bunch of guys with knifes are going to do against a bunch of super humans.

You may have missed that they get +1 attack and rending if they roll that up. I'm not saying it's always going to come up (and psychopaths feels pretty useless, but in a counter-charge supporting my CCS they might drop a few marines simultaneously), but when it does, the maths says 31 attacks on the charge = 5 rending hits = 5 dead marines. That makes them a big threat, at least in my opponent's eyes, which means they also make good bait to keep him away from my objective-holders, and stubborn with the standard for backup should also help keep any survivors locked into combat, holding him back a little longer, possibly long enough for my CCS or RR's to finish the job.

Furious Charge only works when you charge them. And they are marines, they are probably going to get to you before you get to them. Rending only helps on 6s, so its not the most reliable. Really, its just a matter of WS3 v WS4, S3 v T4 and their Sv3+. No power weapons makes legionaires useless against MEQ. As for finishing the job, you can't shoot into melee, so you would have to throw your CCS into melee... and you can direct attacks in melee, so he could focus fire your CCS down before it has time to act... even if the legionaires were in the combat too.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:OR because you know you are up against space marines, maybe plasma cannons.

*enters Woody Allen mode* What is this with the plasma cannons? All the time with the plasma, yadda yadda yadda... Anyway I get the point, but I don't have the points, if you know what I mean.

I was just going option by option. You said very plainly your opponent is marines, and plasma is the way to go. I can't really tell you the best ways to outfit your Russ and not mention that plasma would be a good option. As for not having the points, whenever you modify a list you have to find the points to make the changes you need.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote: Another optoin would be a Hydra, a lot of twinlinked autocannon shots... with extra range... and they ignore cover from bikes and other vehicles moving very fast. If you know your opponent will bring bikes, I recommend a Hydra, cheap and powerful.

Now that is something that will be on my wish list for some time. If I had the models, I'd want some hydras and griffons in order to throw out some serious firepower, but by jove those things are expensive these days (FW seems to be the only source). I know you probably don't like griffons, but I think an accurate Str 6 pinning pie will seriously wear down anyone's patience.

Griffons aren't my first choice compared to something like a Basilisk, which has a little more AP and can fire directly. However in small point games its an Av12 open topped tank, with little ability to fire at anything close range, and low back armors. On the other hand, you can't beat the points for either the Hydra or Griffon. I will agree Forge World is wicked expensive. Get some Basilisk and get the conversion kits, and don't perinantly attach the guns and swap out the guns as need be.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote: I I am also certain that you won't win any melee fights either. I would definately swap out ACs for MLs but against marines, I wouldn't take either. If anything you want las for against the tanks, and then you can use the AP2 against the marines later when you run out of tanks to shoot at.

I've noticed in past games that lascannons are really good at not earning their points-worth. Due to their static nature and huge threat value, enemy tanks and transports will just avoid LOS at all costs, and troops will hug cover, making that AP2 less effective.
As far as melee goes, I only want to be mopping up after a round of shooting - it should be about finishing off the survivors, not actually charging a full squad and expecting to win.

Lascannon work best with orders. Give them BiD orders versus vehicles to fix their ballistic skills, and give them FoMT orders against infantry to mitigate some of that cover. With a good spread of orders you can fix most of the problems any of your infantry's weapons (except for lasguns, that just suck that bad ) I suppose you could do better in melee if you shoot up the enemy first, which is obviously what you intend to do. I feel like they are less likely to get the assault than marines will. Either the marines will be in a transport or will be jump infantry, and will have a greater range. I feel like you could take 80pts and use them better in some other fashion. Even if you take a squad of infantry and put a power weapon in them I feel like it would be better off being able to pierce the Sv3+ than just a squad of humans with no options for that.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:Look at the numbers, they simply do not have the WS or number of attacks. I think if you got 5 wounds with 7 riders you got VERY VERY lucky (7 riders would have 8 attacks with the lances... at WS3 versus WS4 you should have only gotten 2 or 3 wounds)....If you put in Marbo, you could do more damage, for cheaper, and he has a chance of surviving after he throws his democharge.

Actually, each RR gets 2 attacks on the charge and the sergeant 3. The only bonus they don't get is 2 hand weapons - they still get a charge bonus.
As far as Marbo is concerned, aargh is all I can say. Effective yes, fluffy definitely not. The point is IG is safety in numbers - Rambo is an awesome film but if it was made in the 40K universe, he'd be Astartes.

Yea I mucked the whole thing up. The WS chart is wierd and I always forget... and I forgot about the extra attacks from the assault. Looking at the other post the RRs don't look too bad. They are a one trick horse show, pun intended. I still don't like them. If you can find the points however, Mogul Kamir would add a lot of juice to that squad, he would have 4+D3 attacks on the assault and would give S6 to the unit letting you wound on a 2+. For 40 pts that's a big difference. Only thing there would be he gives the squad RAGE! which is a huge handicap if you want to use them to clean up squads. You would have to shoot up a squad on turn 1, and go with the riders on that same turn. It would be a little tricky to manage, but way more effective.

As for Rambo, they did model him in 40k... its Marbo. Do you think its coincidence that he looks and acts like Rambo, and his name is the same except they swapped 2 letters? But, if you read his stats and actually use him, he's definitely not a Space Marine. He's really not that powerful. He is mostly just a really sneaky donkey-cave who pops up in the worst places, and hucks a democharge at you. If he survives for long after that, then all the more power to him, but he's really just a pinpoint democharge. But if he gets left alone after that democharge, his knife and gun are pretty scary and will definately score you some more damage. I've been thinking about trying to field Marbo, I just don't know how to do it yet as I have a Cadian army.

Captain Roderick wrote:

imperialist dog wrote:I do have one thing to say not to include that is storm troopers.

I'm still tempted to get my fingers burnt - dropping a 9-man Air Assault unit with no special weapons into rapid fire range is 18 shots = 12 hits = 4 dead marines, enough to ruin a pack of long-fangs and divert the enemy's attention wonderfully. Then again, I don't have 9 models. I guess they'll stay on the shelf...

Stormtroopers are really only good against MEQ where they can take advantage of their AP3. If you use them right you can essentially do the same thing you wanna do with rough riders. Drop them in and unload on a broken squad. Equipped with plasma you can get over 5 wounds in a volley, which would be great to cut through the last of a Tac squad. However the basic argument is that at the cost of points, a Tank could do it better.

If you plan to do a older style army, you should try to adapt it into a Steel Legion or a Mordian Iron Guard.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
(I will admit I'm not perfect.)

Show me a perfect IG commander and I'll show you someone who needs to give up GW and find something better to do with their life. It's a shame you have no love for RR's, but I think a lot of that comes down to the models, and as you know I've sidestepped that issue with non-gw minis.

Oh I am a huge fan for fluff. But you can build a good list, and cover the fluff over it. If you have a set theme going in, that is fine... but I generally make my models seperate from making my lists. Then when I make a competitive list, I go and pick out the models I want and work out the fluff then. I'll say more on what I actually play below, because it is relevant there.

To go into more detail, and to answer the later mordian question, I reckon you should look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_strategy#Napoleonic_strategy since that era is my main inspiration. Specifically, British formations of the era, which would largely consist of stubborn, well-trained infantry who stand through cannon fire et al, with heavy cannon and cavalry in support, then drive off the assault force with disciplined volleys of musketry and a bayonet charge. The good ol' battle of Waterloo, Talavera, or almost any of Wellington's victories is a lovely illustration of this, and I'd recommend you read about them on wikipedia if you're any kind of history buff - be warned, though, you might be there for hours.
What this means in terms of IG is I'd always prefer to take at least one platoon, with infantry without any especially jazzy weapons (I can just about picture a napoloeonic GL using a spring like a PIAT to fire grenades with burning fuses, but a plasmagun is a little too shiny). Heavy weapons are concentrated in squads to support the infantry, and cavalry is nearby to counter-assault other fast moving threats.

The exception that proves the rule is my vets - I have the aforementioned Tallarn models, so they've got better kit and skills. They can fit the 'feel' by being from an IG veteran regiment mustered out to the local PDF by way of retirement when there were too few of them left to be of much tactical value. We played a 500pt game yesterday with the vets and a platoon in it, the swines ran off the board... Clearly contemptuous of the local commanders and would rather live to fight another day! Managed to hang onto my objective and force a draw despite only having 2 infantry squads left for the last two turns.

The way you can distribute wounds, and then pull them off your CC with bodyguards is really good if you know how to play it. If you get two wounds, take one put it on the CC and the bodyguard and try to save. If you fail both, you can put them both on the bodyguard. Basically each time you lose a bodyguard, try to kill him 2 or 3 times so you can protect others in the squad. Also bodyguards is decent in CC, so they are a nice addition if you want to put a power fist in the squad, the squad will actually stay alive long enough to use it. Played in an Apoc game once and had my CC survive two turns of direct fire (guy was really good with his dice) from a Baneblade, then survived a direct hit from Ork Roks (an apoc special ability) and then an assault from a 30 boyz mob of orks with a warboss. I did get STUPID lucky, but he wouldn't have made it through the 2 turns of Baneblade shots without the bodyguards.

At the end of this post I shall unveil my modified list, including bodyguards. Love that story, sheer guts and luck and a thousand friends to back you up is the IG way!

I actually don't use a lot of plasma, as I generally write balanced lists, and most of my opponents tend to be orks and nids and other low armor races. I personally use tanks for my anti-MEQ as I don't usually see a lot of it. But if I knew I was going to go up against a space marine player, or my friend who plays an all Terminator list, I would retool my list to take all plasma. Their effect is undeniable. This game is a game of numbers, just do the math and you can see how effective things are. Then after that its all tactics once you start playing. As for the wounds... doesn't matter how many wounds you have if you don't have any guns. You could have 1000 men, but if you don't have any guns that can hurt marines... they just get that many more killpoints. Which is my next point, scoring units are good... yes. But if you have a bunch of scoring units that count as points if your enemy kills them. If you can bring 10 scoring units, its great... but only if they have a good use. If they are just cannon fodder for the sake of having them... they are a liability. (This isn't talking about situations where you want to have infantry to kill... like if you were going to bubblewrap your tanks in infantry... which is actually a good tactic to use, lol.) I still cannot say enough times how bad lasguns are, and how much of a waste FRFSRF is. If you have plasma, you can give Fire on My Target! and deny cover saves. Or if you wanna shoot at vehicles with your plasma, you could order BiD. Pretty much every order is more effective than even 50 more lasgun shots. I normally would agree with you that GLs are great, as are flamers. Again I normally never take plasma, but writing a list specifically for space marines, plasma is the way to go. But these are just my powergaming suggestions. If you have reasons not to take something, or to take something... other than having the most powerful list... then your welcome to avoid my advice if you don't want to, haha.

'tis fair, and my new list has 1 whole plasmagun *gasp* in my vets, mainly because I have the model, and my army's not been all that WYSIWYG so far. I've also been thinking about the possibilities of a scary 4x vet squad 2x CCS-based list, but I haven't crunched the numbers yet, and certainly won't get around to using it for quite a while.

Furious Charge only works when you charge them. And they are marines, they are probably going to get to you before you get to them. Rending only helps on 6s, so its not the most reliable. Really, its just a matter of WS3 v WS4, S3 v T4 and their Sv3+. No power weapons makes legionaires useless against MEQ. As for finishing the job, you can't shoot into melee, so you would have to throw your CCS into melee... and you can direct attacks in melee, so he could focus fire your CCS down before it has time to act... even if the legionaires were in the combat too.

Weel, I'd either be counter-charging with them after he's landed on one of my screening Infantry squads, or they'd just be dying screaming far away from my battle line to keep him at bay a little longer, much like ratlings seem to do a lot of the time. But they're not as cheap as ratlings, since you have to take all 10 of 'em. If only they could be given demo charges! And when will they bring back the Imperial Suicide Bomber of 1st edition?
Either way I'm shelving them for now, but might bring them out again in a bigger game in order to outflank and steal an objective previously cleared by long-range fire. Two squads of them, stubborn, will if nothing else take a while to bump off, especially if they arrive late in the game.

I was just going option by option. You said very plainly your opponent is marines, and plasma is the way to go. I can't really tell you the best ways to outfit your Russ and not mention that plasma would be a good option. As for not having the points, whenever you modify a list you have to find the points to make the changes you need.

True true. And I have done so in order to equip my vets. But in that 500pt game I just played, he took a swiftclaw biker team with a multimelta just to deal with a chimera - in the 750 I'll have a LRBT, so plasma cannons is just too big a points sink to risk against the amount of fast-moving AT firepower he'll bring to the fray.
From our chat today, it seems there may well be a drop-podding Grey Hunter squad with a Wolf Guard Leader in terminator armor with combi-melta and PF. I'm not going to directly try to counter that in my list, as I know a round of shooting plus a RR charge will cleanse them nicely, and my RR's will be on tank-guard-duty all game.

Griffons aren't my first choice compared to something like a Basilisk, which has a little more AP and can fire directly. However in small point games its an Av12 open topped tank, with little ability to fire at anything close range, and low back armors. On the other hand, you can't beat the points for either the Hydra or Griffon. I will agree Forge World is wicked expensive. Get some Basilisk and get the conversion kits, and don't perinantly attach the guns and swap out the guns as need be.

Indeed, I find the 36" minimum range of a basilisk truly horrifying. The griffon re-roll, lower price, and shorter minimum range just gives it that much more chance of hurting something in most games and possibly recouping its points cost, despite the AP of 4. *EDIT* just found the direct fire ordnance barrage rules - I'm still thinking in 3rd ed. Move and fire with a basilisk seems heretical, but now also tempting!
On a similar note, from reading a few battle reports and doing a bit of googling, I've discovered that the aegis defence line provides a cheap hydra turret along with some groovy scenery, and you can get it for a tenner: http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/aegis-defence-line.html

Lascannon work best with orders. Give them BiD orders versus vehicles to fix their ballistic skills, and give them FoMT orders against infantry to mitigate some of that cover. With a good spread of orders you can fix most of the problems any of your infantry's weapons (except for lasguns, that just suck that bad ) I suppose you could do better in melee if you shoot up the enemy first, which is obviously what you intend to do. I feel like they are less likely to get the assault than marines will. Either the marines will be in a transport or will be jump infantry, and will have a greater range. I feel like you could take 80pts and use them better in some other fashion. Even if you take a squad of infantry and put a power weapon in them I feel like it would be better off being able to pierce the Sv3+ than just a squad of humans with no options for that.

Orders are beautiful. I'm still not convinced on Lascannons though, but as soon as my oppo has a predator or a LR they'll be in. Legionairres are on the shelf for now as aforementioned, but as far as getting the charge is concerned, Swiftclaws are only WS 3, so they're not usually capable of wiping out in one turn the screening infantry squad they usually charge, which holds them in place nicely for my counter-charge.

Yea I mucked the whole thing up. The WS chart is wierd and I always forget... and I forgot about the extra attacks from the assault. Looking at the other post the RRs don't look too bad. They are a one trick horse show, pun intended. I still don't like them. If you can find the points however, Mogul Kamir would add a lot of juice to that squad, he would have 4+D3 attacks on the assault and would give S6 to the unit letting you wound on a 2+. For 40 pts that's a big difference. Only thing there would be he gives the squad RAGE! which is a huge handicap if you want to use them to clean up squads. You would have to shoot up a squad on turn 1, and go with the riders on that same turn. It would be a little tricky to manage, but way more effective.

Now Mogul I don't think I'll touch, purely because of Rage. Although, if I kept him in reserve, and had an astropath, that might fix the rage and still let him turn up how and when I need him, and give me much more crushing power vs a powerful nearby unit.

As for Rambo, they did model him in 40k... its Marbo. Do you think its coincidence that he looks and acts like Rambo, and his name is the same except they swapped 2 letters? But, if you read his stats and actually use him, he's definitely not a Space Marine. He's really not that powerful. He is mostly just a really sneaky donkey-cave who pops up in the worst places, and hucks a democharge at you. If he survives for long after that, then all the more power to him, but he's really just a pinpoint democharge. But if he gets left alone after that democharge, his knife and gun are pretty scary and will definately score you some more damage. I've been thinking about trying to field Marbo, I just don't know how to do it yet as I have a Cadian army.

Yes I did indeed get the pun, thus me bringing Rambo into the discussion. I won't dispute that he's a very shiny killing machine, and just read a few battle reports in which his DC and fire-drawing ability came in very handy. He still doesn't feel quite right, but I might give him a go at some point, just for the abject fear he'll put on my oppo's face when he drops that pie. Preferably on his Wolf Guard or Bikes. Although he's more likely to be Harper (the local equivalent), and lighting the fuse of a pre-prepared mine instead of throwing a demo charge. Much more fluffy
The point I was trying to make was simply that 1-man-armies is the province of the Astartes, and Rambo as a film made in the real world obviously has him as a human, but that's hollywood movie madness for you. If that film were made in the 41st millennium (unlikely, I know) he'd probably end up being Astartes, not human, because of how ridiculously badass he is.

Stormtroopers are really only good against MEQ where they can take advantage of their AP3. If you use them right you can essentially do the same thing you wanna do with rough riders. Drop them in and unload on a broken squad. Equipped with plasma you can get over 5 wounds in a volley, which would be great to cut through the last of a Tac squad. However the basic argument is that at the cost of points, a Tank could do it better.

Tanks are shiny and expensive, and I'm probably not going to deploy stormtroopers unless he gets really fond of his Long Fangs and starts camping out with them on the far side of the board. TBH though by the time that happens, I might have modelled up a Napoleonic Marbo, and he'd certainly do the same job for cheaper.

If you plan to do a older style army, you should try to adapt it into a Steel Legion or a Mordian Iron Guard.

Yeah, I'm going with the Napoleonic feel, but chimeras are so lovely they'll inevitably make their way into my list when I can afford them. they make a great home for HW squads or objective-grabbing vets, as I've seen many a time in the batreps. I tried to do that last game, but got my wires crossed and charged towards his objective-holding grey hunters while trying to simultaneously shoot up his Speeder, ended up 1" out of range and they spent the rest of the game stunned, shaken, immobilised, and 3 weapons were shot off the chimera. Hilariously, this tied up his bikes in attacking all game because he was so upset it wouldn't die, and kept them off my infantry long enough for me to scrape a draw. We rolled 7 times on the damage table for various glancing and penetrating hits, and at the end of the game it was still there!

reminds me of the Iron Chimera of batreps fame, and since we drew, we both rolled up one veteran skill each - mine went to that chimera, and I'll bring it back into the campaign at a later date.

So, here's my new 750pt list, with justifications:

HQ (120)

Company Command Squad (50)
Company Commander has Power Fist (15)
Regimental Standard (15)
2 Bodyguards (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 120pts
Gotta have an HQ, and gotta have those orders for shooty joy. Standard keeps the Infantry in the way and my shooty units pouring on the fire. Bodyguards, PF and standard will all help win a counter-assault.

TROOPS (360)

1st Platoon (220)

Platoon Command Squad (30)
1x Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 35pts

Infantry Squad #1 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #2 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Heavy Weapons Squad (60)
3x Autocannons (15)
Total: 75pts
2 Infantry squads as a screen and for FRF! & objective-grabbing capability. GL's for cheap long range light firepower. AC's in the HW squad to pop the inevitable rhino or razorback and down that pesky speeder typhoon that chewed up my army last game and emerged intact.

Veteran Squad (70)
Missile Launcher (15)
Plasmagun (15)
2 x Grenade Launchers (10)
Forward Scouts doctrine (30)
Total: 140pts
BS4 is better. I know ML isn't the best choice, but since I have the model in the squad, I'm hoping that a lick of paint and non-proxied weaponry will bring the dice gods to smile upon me. GL lets me keep the pressure on even if mobile to avoid being assaulted, and plasma is not only already in the squad but just bloomin useful. Forward Scouts may be expensive, but will a: give increased survivability vs typhoon & ML shots, b: seriously slow Skyclaws down long enough for a counter-assault to save the squad, and c: even make them a good choice to screen the HW squad or CCS from fire while still remaining in the fight. Lastly, they're painted and modelled that way.

FAST ATTACK (95)

Rough Rider Squadron (55)
+4 extra Rough Riders (40)
Total: 95pts
No change here. Good for keeping meltas away from my LRBT or thoroughly wiping out a drop-podding Grey Hunter/Wolf Guard team.

HEAVY SUPPORT (175)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Hull Lascannon (15)
Pintle Heavy Stubber (10)
Total: 175pts
Lascannon to give considerably more killware than a H/K. Pintle Stubber can always be fired, so will add more firepower against speeder or troops.

OVERALL TOTAL: 750pts.

My strategy in most situations will be to have front rank a screen of Infantry with PCS just behind the middle, curving round the sides to catch assaulters or melta-users. behind, CCS in the middle flanked slightly to the rear by HW squad and vets, and finally the LRBT with RR bodyguard behind the CCS.
Obviously, all subject to change depending on my oppo's style, but I'm expecting to be hit hard and fast and be fending off attackers from turn 2 if not turn 1.


Another epic post over, dinnertime!

Captain Roderick wrote:

Furious Charge only works when you charge them. And they are marines, they are probably going to get to you before you get to them. Rending only helps on 6s, so its not the most reliable. Really, its just a matter of WS3 v WS4, S3 v T4 and their Sv3+. No power weapons makes legionaires useless against MEQ. As for finishing the job, you can't shoot into melee, so you would have to throw your CCS into melee... and you can direct attacks in melee, so he could focus fire your CCS down before it has time to act... even if the legionaires were in the combat too.

Weel, I'd either be counter-charging with them after he's landed on one of my screening Infantry squads, or they'd just be dying screaming far away from my battle line to keep him at bay a little longer, much like ratlings seem to do a lot of the time. But they're not as cheap as ratlings, since you have to take all 10 of 'em. If only they could be given demo charges! And when will they bring back the Imperial Suicide Bomber of 1st edition?
Either way I'm shelving them for now, but might bring them out again in a bigger game in order to outflank and steal an objective previously cleared by long-range fire. Two squads of them, stubborn, will if nothing else take a while to bump off, especially if they arrive late in the game.

I can get behind counter assaults, it is a great stratagy. I have soaked lines of Necron Scarabs with my front lines, only to use the time to position flamer vets for when the combat was over. I have also assaulted into combats that were started by orks that hit my front lines. I know what you are talking about, and it works. I just think if that is your goal, Legionaries aren't the men for that job... not versus Marines. If you wanted to set up a squad of vets, who can have a demo charge, power fist, 4+ armor... etc. You could definitely do some damage. I would personally recommend just a squad of basic infantry with a power sword for 60pts from your platoon. Or better, 5 squads all with power swords and flamers, lol. I use that 50man flamer, PS squad to great effect as my front line responding to melee threats. Commisars, CCS orders, and Regmental standards help a lot in these situations. As for suicide bomber, you might find what you are looking for in Guardsman Marbo.

Captain Roderick wrote:

I was just going option by option. You said very plainly your opponent is marines, and plasma is the way to go. I can't really tell you the best ways to outfit your Russ and not mention that plasma would be a good option. As for not having the points, whenever you modify a list you have to find the points to make the changes you need.

True true. And I have done so in order to equip my vets. But in that 500pt game I just played, he took a swiftclaw biker team with a multimelta just to deal with a chimera - in the 750 I'll have a LRBT, so plasma cannons is just too big a points sink to risk against the amount of fast-moving AT firepower he'll bring to the fray.
From our chat today, it seems there may well be a drop-podding Grey Hunter squad with a Wolf Guard Leader in terminator armor with combi-melta and PF. I'm not going to directly try to counter that in my list, as I know a round of shooting plus a RR charge will cleanse them nicely, and my RR's will be on tank-guard-duty all game.

I actually like that response. RRs seem ok for that sort of role. I also agree that the Russ would end up being a huge point sink and a big target for your opponenet. Maybe instead of Plasma, you could find the points for simply two Russ?

Captain Roderick wrote:

Yea I mucked the whole thing up. The WS chart is wierd and I always forget... and I forgot about the extra attacks from the assault. Looking at the other post the RRs don't look too bad. They are a one trick horse show, pun intended. I still don't like them. If you can find the points however, Mogul Kamir would add a lot of juice to that squad, he would have 4+D3 attacks on the assault and would give S6 to the unit letting you wound on a 2+. For 40 pts that's a big difference. Only thing there would be he gives the squad RAGE! which is a huge handicap if you want to use them to clean up squads. You would have to shoot up a squad on turn 1, and go with the riders on that same turn. It would be a little tricky to manage, but way more effective.

Now Mogul I don't think I'll touch, purely because of Rage. Although, if I kept him in reserve, and had an astropath, that might fix the rage and still let him turn up how and when I need him, and give me much more crushing power vs a powerful nearby unit.

You should ask a better rules lawyer than me, but it seems if you keep him out of LoS he won't rage. But if you want the RRs on tank duty, babysitting tanks... I suppose Kamir isn't who you want.

Captain Roderick wrote:So, here's my new 750pt list, with justifications:

HQ (120)

Company Command Squad (50)
Company Commander has Power Fist (15)
Regimental Standard (15)
2 Bodyguards (30)
2x Grenade Launchers (10)
Total: 120pts
Gotta have an HQ, and gotta have those orders for shooty joy. Standard keeps the Infantry in the way and my shooty units pouring on the fire. Bodyguards, PF and standard will all help win a counter-assault.

TROOPS (360)

1st Platoon (220)

Platoon Command Squad (30)
1x Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 35pts

Infantry Squad #1 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Infantry Squad #2 (50)
Grenade Launcher (5)
Total: 55pts

Heavy Weapons Squad (60)
3x Autocannons (15)
Total: 75pts
2 Infantry squads as a screen and for FRF! & objective-grabbing capability. GL's for cheap long range light firepower. AC's in the HW squad to pop the inevitable rhino or razorback and down that pesky speeder typhoon that chewed up my army last game and emerged intact.

Veteran Squad (70)
Missile Launcher (15)
Plasmagun (15)
2 x Grenade Launchers (10)
Forward Scouts doctrine (30)
Total: 140pts
BS4 is better. I know ML isn't the best choice, but since I have the model in the squad, I'm hoping that a lick of paint and non-proxied weaponry will bring the dice gods to smile upon me. GL lets me keep the pressure on even if mobile to avoid being assaulted, and plasma is not only already in the squad but just bloomin useful. Forward Scouts may be expensive, but will a: give increased survivability vs typhoon & ML shots, b: seriously slow Skyclaws down long enough for a counter-assault to save the squad, and c: even make them a good choice to screen the HW squad or CCS from fire while still remaining in the fight. Lastly, they're painted and modelled that way.

FAST ATTACK (95)

Rough Rider Squadron (55)
+4 extra Rough Riders (40)
Total: 95pts
No change here. Good for keeping meltas away from my LRBT or thoroughly wiping out a drop-podding Grey Hunter/Wolf Guard team.

HEAVY SUPPORT (175)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Hull Lascannon (15)
Pintle Heavy Stubber (10)
Total: 175pts
Lascannon to give considerably more killware than a H/K. Pintle Stubber can always be fired, so will add more firepower against speeder or troops.

OVERALL TOTAL: 750pts.

My strategy in most situations will be to have front rank a screen of Infantry with PCS just behind the middle, curving round the sides to catch assaulters or melta-users. behind, CCS in the middle flanked slightly to the rear by HW squad and vets, and finally the LRBT with RR bodyguard behind the CCS.
Obviously, all subject to change depending on my oppo's style, but I'm expecting to be hit hard and fast and be fending off attackers from turn 2 if not turn 1.


Another epic post over, dinnertime!

Really don't like that ML, but if you must you must. Power fist could be dropped to get some points to fill out the PCS with good gear. I think that instead of two CCS, you could bring Creed. He would let you have more orders, more range and would let you have "For the Honour of Cadia" allowing you to turn any old squad into a melee menace for those counter assaults. I know he is expensive, but I try to run him in games starting at 1000pts. Since you are going infantry heavy, I feel like he would give you a lot of extra power. Also all his orders are CCS level orders, so you would have plenty of the good orders to give.

I can get behind counter assaults, it is a great stratagy. I have soaked lines of Necron Scarabs with my front lines, only to use the time to position flamer vets for when the combat was over. I have also assaulted into combats that were started by orks that hit my front lines. I know what you are talking about, and it works. I just think if that is your goal, Legionaries aren't the men for that job... not versus Marines. If you wanted to set up a squad of vets, who can have a demo charge, power fist, 4+ armor... etc. You could definitely do some damage. I would personally recommend just a squad of basic infantry with a power sword for 60pts from your platoon. Or better, 5 squads all with power swords and flamers, lol. I use that 50man flamer, PS squad to great effect as my front line responding to melee threats. Commisars, CCS orders, and Regmental standards help a lot in these situations. As for suicide bomber, you might find what you are looking for in Guardsman Marbo.

Now we're singing from the same hymn sheet Yeah you're right, legionnaires aren't that great as a counter-assault unit, but there is another good use for them in any mission that has a 'may not set up within x of an enemy' rule. Set them up as far forward as possible, to prevent the enemy having access to good cover or nice infiltrating position, then use the scout move to retire toward the platoon 'castle', generally giving you more space and more shooting at incoming units. After this, they form the front rank to catch assaulters in place of an inf. squad, and stubborn and the standard means they should stay locked in combat until your turn, when RR's or the command squad with a fist can charge in and wipe out the offending attackers. I'd say the choice is between letting the screening squad get wiped out/forced back in 1 turn, thus freeing the enemy to be shot-up *then* assaulted in your following turn, or locking them in combat so you can assault next turn and use the rest of your shooting for other incoming threats. I'm not using them in this build anyway, but it's certainly food for thought.
The Flamer/powersword platoon is nice, 65 points per squad instead of 55 and much better at doing what they do. Flamers can fit in my 'feel' as well I think, after all it's just a big hose with a lighter on the end. In a bigger game I may well try that, as it's more flexible and only a little more expensive. I'd want to take more HW squads as well to justify the cost of the screen.
Using vets for a counter-assault seems wasteful, I'd rather be using that improved BS at range and have a SW squad with 2 flamers and a demo charge for the counter. Almost as much punch per squad, and you can have 2 of 'em for 1 vet squad with the upgrades you listed, giving you the option to face two threats instead of just one if needs be, or concentrate on one especially nasty one and ensure it is totally flattened. Maybe you might find that handy in your platoon in future!

I actually like that response. RRs seem ok for that sort of role. I also agree that the Russ would end up being a huge point sink and a big target for your opponenet. Maybe instead of Plasma, you could find the points for simply two Russ?

Ha! If only I could afford two LRBT models. Plus having multiples of any 1 tank-type doesn't seem to fit the feel of a Napoleonic PDF as well. My one Russ alone is ok, it'll be ol' faithful, several hundred years old and practically unique on my world. I'm hoping to try and convert it somewhat to make it more steampunky and special

You should ask a better rules lawyer than me, but it seems if you keep him out of LoS he won't rage. But if you want the RRs on tank duty, babysitting tanks... I suppose Kamir isn't who you want.

That is very true, but avoiding LOS while still guarding the tank might be tricky. I prefer the idea of him being in reserve anyway, if I do use him - 'here comes the cavalry, glory boys, only ever turning up in the nick of time, never sticking around to do a hard day's work.' Then recklessly charging around the board for the last turn or two of the game like true cavalry should.

Really don't like that ML, but if you must you must. Power fist could be dropped to get some points to fill out the PCS with good gear. I think that instead of two CCS, you could bring Creed. He would let you have more orders, more range and would let you have "For the Honour of Cadia" allowing you to turn any old squad into a melee menace for those counter assaults. I know he is expensive, but I try to run him in games starting at 1000pts. Since you are going infantry heavy, I feel like he would give you a lot of extra power. Also all his orders are CCS level orders, so you would have plenty of the good orders to give.

The powerfist suggestion is a good one, although is means reducing my converted commander model to 1 wound. however I'm less likely to want to put the CCS in a melee, so it's probably much safer, and leaves the CCS free to keep issuing orders to my shooty squads. so, transferring the fist to the PCS and dropping 1 bodyguard from the CCS gives me enough points for many, many flamers in the PCS, and they're more likely to be counter assaulting. Also lets me free up some more points for other shinies elsewhere.
The ML I'll run with for 1 game, see if it helps. if it doesn't, I might try and scrape together the funds for a tallarn AC from ebay, to try and keep the dice gods on side
Creed I only started properly looking up last night from reading this very interesting batrep and army list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270208.page and you're right, he's totally a horde army's daddy. He may well end up being my army's supreme commander for the final battle

concurrent views mean shorter posts, woo! thanks again for all the help, Lt, ImpDog, Tokugawa, Lorry and Spank. Your contributions will not be forgotten.

Well, they might. But not for a month or two.

Oh cool! an Infantry fluff list. I sometimes use one and YES, they can kick some major @$$. Seeing your units, I could go for maybe something like this:

750 INFANTRY "BLOB" ARMY

CCS 50
P. Fist 15
GL 5
standard 15
Missle Launcher 15

100

TROOPS

PCS 30
GL x 2 10
Autocannon 10

65

Infantry Platoon 50
Powerweapon 10
Autocannon 10
GL 5

75 x 3 = 225

Upgrade 1 to commissar + 35

Veterans 70
P. Fist 15
Autocannon 15
GL X 3 15

115

FA

Rough Riders 55
Melta bomb 5

HEAVY

Leman Russ 150

TOTAL 750

The last variation I used was a tad different with the CCS ML and melta bomb out, and a Manticore in place of an LR. That list wiped out 60+ orks in a single turn, and that's a 750 point list! (but the Manticore had a lucky shot then, and the str3 GL plate was having a field day) When his turn came there was nothing left on the table and his deffkoptas didn't arrive so my turn came and I did nothing but reposition with "move, move, move" to wait for his deffkoptas.

The "Blob" is very simple, combine ALL squads then whittle down your opponents numbers through massive shooting and when he gets within assault range go for it! The commissar gives stubborn and that's 3 power weapons and a bunch load of guys. By this time you will probably outnumber him 4(or maybe 5) to 1. That's like the ork's "green wave". Think of it as a "camo-green wave" (sorry, couldn't help it. lol!). If he lives, he's stuck, your stubborn with a standard in the background. By your next turn your CCS and veterans pile in... with P.fists!!! If anything is still left standing, rough riders (who should be kept in reserve) will do clean up on isle 5.

IMHO, keep the RR squad, especially when you get chimeras (to give them cover). Marines, Termies, Assault termies, and heck, even blood krushers hate them. they can cause a lot of power weapon wound for only 55pts. By the time they charge, only a few of the opponents units will be alive anyway. When they use up their lances, they still have grenades, and as listed above a melta bomb... They are very underrated tank hunters!

You can do a lot with this type of infantry army... Camo-scouts, thunderfire inside reinforced ruin, skimmers on flat-outs? no problem issue "Fire on my target" on the LEADERSHIP 9 blob and watch em die! Rhino rush? that's 6 str 7 shots and 3 str 6 shots, twin-linked(?) on a bring it down! If his Rhino's still standing after that it deserves a medal. I rarely use plasma. Never had too much luck with them , whenever I use em it's like "Oh yeah, you wanna kill me?! well screw you, I'm killing myself". After all, marines use coversaves too.

The best thing about this army is that it's fluffy... its like a real battlefield with a whole bunch of troops moving around!

dpaul wrote:
The last variation I used was a tad different with the CCS ML and melta bomb out, and a Manticore in place of an LR. That list wiped out 60+ orks in a single turn, and that's a 750 point list! (but the Manticore had a lucky shot then, and the str3 GL plate was having a field day) When his turn came there was nothing left on the table and his deffkoptas didn't arrive so my turn came and I did nothing but reposition with "move, move, move" to wait for his deffkoptas.

I long for a day when my shooting's that good, I really do. My oppo would hate it, but then he's got dinky, fast-moving space marine units - going to make my life difficult shooty wise.

The "Blob" is very simple, combine ALL squads then whittle down your opponents numbers through massive shooting and when he gets within assault range go for it! The commissar gives stubborn and that's 3 power weapons and a bunch load of guys. By this time you will probably outnumber him 4(or maybe 5) to 1. That's like the ork's "green wave". Think of it as a "camo-green wave" (sorry, couldn't help it. lol!). If he lives, he's stuck, your stubborn with a standard in the background. By your next turn your CCS and veterans pile in... with P.fists!!! If anything is still left standing, rough riders (who should be kept in reserve) will do clean up on isle 5.

See I love this tactic, and it's very guard, but the aforementioned dinky unit problem means I'd prefer to be able to split my fire. Mind you, our growing understanding of the rules is making that HW squad even more vulnerable (TLoS is something we've not been great at in the past) so I may well try Mr Blobby. Maybe even in the next game.
How do you deal with LoS issues? I have a worry that my blob will be massive and unwieldy, and won't get enough shots in to do much harm worth its cost, especially with my nippy oppo and his small-but-deadly units. I'm seriously considering it now, but previous times I've used it I've left out the HW to keep it mobile.

IMHO, keep the RR squad, especially when you get chimeras (to give them cover). Marines, Termies, Assault termies, and heck, even blood krushers hate them. they can cause a lot of power weapon wound for only 55pts. By the time they charge, only a few of the opponents units will be alive anyway. When they use up their lances, they still have grenades, and as listed above a melta bomb... They are very underrated tank hunters!

I loveses me Rough Riders. The sergeant bears a remarkable resemblance to Stalin, and last game I gave him meltabombs and 6 riders backing him up, he secured 3KP for me - half my enemy's army. First charge splatted a Grey Hunter pack, second attack kaboomed their drop-pod, third took out the other drop pod near the other end of my board edge.

You can do a lot with this type of infantry army... Camo-scouts, thunderfire inside reinforced ruin, skimmers on flat-outs? no problem issue "Fire on my target" on the LEADERSHIP 9 blob and watch em die! Rhino rush? that's 6 str 7 shots and 3 str 6 shots, twin-linked(?) on a bring it down! If his Rhino's still standing after that it deserves a medal. I rarely use plasma. Never had too much luck with them , whenever I use em it's like "Oh yeah, you wanna kill me?! well screw you, I'm killing myself". After all, marines use coversaves too.

Yeah, my plasmagunner tends to die every time I use him. before I get to, in fact. Although we played a Killteam mission the other day (we're going to work 'em into the campaign, my Marbo knockoff is in a stockade behind enemy lines and needs to be freed before I can use him) where he more than made up for that, killed 5 marine goons all by hisself. I think he prefers stealthy missions

The best thing about this army is that it's fluffy... its like a real battlefield with a whole bunch of troops moving around!

Yeah my oppo tends to go make a cup of tea during my deployment, saves him sitting around for 20+ minutes. I'm tempted to make a batrep of the last battle, it was many forms of fun. Hawk_Jolt has a copy of vassal kicking about somewhere, I'm going to give that a try.

I wouldn't worry about Heavy weapons being tied up. The army list I made has a Heavy weapon team on the Command Squad, Platoon command squad, and the Veterans. Two of those have BS4! Want to split Heavy weapons fire? You have 3 Heavy weapons that can shoot at three different targets instead of 3 weapons only being able to shoot at one. LoS issues really do hurt Heavy Weapon Squads. Each death costs you a lot. That why I put em with teams, more meat for the grinder. Often if the opponent's unit can churn enormous amounts of damage, I also go to ground to give them 3+ cover saves then next turn issue a "Get back in the Fight!" command. Your opponents will loooooove you.

I wouldn't worry about a 30 man squad being unwieldy, you have "move, move, move". So more often than not you can reposition on an average of about 11 inches. OR if you want to reposition within 6" and you want to be protected, here's a trick, move 6" then issue "Incoming!. Even if you are not in cover you get a 5+ save BUT if you are, you get a 2+ cover save! Next turn, just issue "Get back in the Fight!"... Again, your opponents will loooooove you.

Notice, that I gave examples that cover the entire command roster. More often than not IG players just tend to keep to the usuals like, BiT, and FRFSRF. During the GT, aside from BiT, I used the "Fire on my Target" command the most. Mainly because of all those scouts with camo and Telion around. If like you said he uses jump packs and bikes, he wont have more than 25 infantry models. Take care of the Rhino first (odds are it'll die if you want it to), once he footslogs you can ignore that unit for about 2 more turns. Gun down the Jetpack guys, then the Bikers. LRBT and RR will do clean ups. Any marine unit that becomes 4-man strong (with the exception of Assault termies, or Thunder wolf cavalry) or below will make a tactical error by charging at the blob.

Anyway, keep us updated with a batrep next time. I would love to check that out.

So, I've created my own version of your 'blob' list above, with a few tweaks for feel and personal preference.

CCS (50)
Standard 15
2x GL 10
75pts

Platoon:
PCS (30)
1x GL 5
PF 15
60pts

Infantry squad (50)
Commissar 35
Commissar has PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
110pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Veteran squad (70)
Missile Launcher 15
3x GL 15
Forward Scouts 30
130pts

Rough Rider squad (55)
+1 RR 10
Sgt has meltabombs 5
70pts

LRBT (150)
Hull LC 15
165pts


---

I made a few edits, since I wanted to hang onto Forward Scouts for the vets and put the ML in there, both for cosmetic reasons. I also wanted more RR's (sadly could only afford 1) and to keep the hull LC on the LRBT, because I'm going to model it that way and it's tasty. Shifted the Powerfist into the PCS as I'd rather they were in melee than my CCS, so the CCS can keep issuing orders and shooting with those BS4 GL's. I know I've got less heavy weapons than your list, but I'm hoping it'll feel better.

All the tips with orders are cracking - I re-read the Get Back In The Fight rules, and it says 'act as normal' not 'counts as moving', so that blob is much scarier.

I'll give this a try, it still feels a bit naked to me, but hey we'll probably play quite a few 750pt games, so who knows how it'll end up? We'll definitely try to do a batrep (with awful pictures of unpainted/badly painted minis) next time as well.

Cheers chief!

PS don't turn your lady against GW, we get enough bad press as it is

VOX CASTERS

also get rid of the rough riders they really arent worth it and get more powerfist

...Have you bothered reading any of this thread?

Your advice is meaningless to me until you do so.

commander nearsighted wrote:VOX CASTERS

also get rid of the rough riders they really arent worth it and get more powerfist

Cooincidentally, neither is a good idea.

I like the list. Looking forward to seeing the reports on how it worked for you.

By the way LOVE the idea of Napoleonic PDF. Sorry if you've already said but are your Rough Rider Plastics?

Like the blob I wanted to put power weapons and a commisar in my blob but couldn't afford the points (got carried away with sentinels)

I'd probably do heavy bolters instead of auto cannons unless you have to do a lot of anti vehicle. Wounding easier is good, but you miss so often that sometimes it's nice to simply hit the enemy more often. Neither heavy weapon will kill through AP so why not go for the extra shots?

Why only one Lemon Russ?They are better in numbers

SpankHammer III wrote:I like the list. Looking forward to seeing the reports on how it worked for you.

By the way LOVE the idea of Napoleonic PDF. Sorry if you've already said but are your Rough Rider Plastics?

Like the blob I wanted to put power weapons and a commisar in my blob but couldn't afford the points (got carried away with sentinels)

Why thank you good sir. Yeah we'll hopefully be getting a game on with this list this week - and making a decent report of it too. Although both armies, the scenery, and the photos will all be dreadful - we're pushing the envelope of the term 'casual gaming'.

My Rough Riders, since I don't use GW minis for the main part, are ww1 british lancers painted up in grey with red trim. You can buy them here: http://www.renegademiniatures.com/ww1br.htm and I use medieval chinese fire lances for the explosive lances, which i've got from the assault group: http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/product.php?productid=371&cat=31&page=3 - a great source for weapon swaps if you like historical stuff.

My list is heavily limited by my model collection, so it's easier for me to convert up a commissar than it would be to buy some sentinels. I've never been very excited by them myself, every batrep I've ever seen they do pretty poorly, but they are great models, and outflanking with them gives you a lot of tactical fun

@ Lt Lathrop - Thanks for the support

@ Ringarin - I think the difference between Autocannons and Heavy Bolters is one of personal preference, but for the sake of preference, because I can use orders to help them hit, and because I'm facing drop pods, a razorback and a ML land speeder, I need that versatility. Pus I roll a lot of 1's and 2's

@ Tony - Because, alas, that's all I own and can afford. Doesn't really fit the feel of my force to go Tread-heavy either. In bigger games, I will be throwing in one of the variants - maybe the MEGAPLASMADEATHTANK just for sheer intimidation, but I'll also be using a 2nd platoon by then, and probably Creed. Outflanking FTW!

np

Thanks for the links I like the look of the lancers, can see why you chose them. The American Civil War models interest me as my army is painted (poorley) like the Ameircan 7th Cav from such John Wayne Classics as Horse Soldiers

I use sentinels because I have them and like the models. Probably not the best choice but got to run with what you've got.

Good luck in your up coming battles.

SpankHammer III wrote:Thanks for the links I like the look of the lancers, can see why you chose them. The American Civil War models interest me as my army is painted (poorley) like the Ameircan 7th Cav from such John Wayne Classics as Horse Soldiers

If you like that, check out the perry twins' plastics. There's probably a link up above somewhere. You can get 40+ ACW infantry for £15, and I think they'll be releasing ACW cavalry at some point soon, if they haven't already, also at a damn cheap price.
The French Napoleonic Cavalry they've got is just beautiful, but because of the lack of lances, I haven't bought any. If they do bring out plastic lancers, that's all my future FA choices sorted Well, maybe I'll occasionally throw in a banewolf for fun, but it's a lot more satisfying (and fluffy) having 30 cavalry on the board

30 Rough riders would be fun and very fluffy. Nothing like watching 30 men on horses charge tanks

I'm very tempted to get some. Filled my Fast attacks options at the moment though, might get some anyway just for the fun of it. Would make sense as my guys are painted like a cav regiment but my list doesn't reflect that at all.

Will have to have a look at twins.

Thanks

I was wondering how those WWI cav look up against Citadel minitures? After some resurce I now want to include Rough riders in my choises of units to bring as i was thinking of starting a fast attack based army, just for fun mainly.

air cav, hellhound varents and Rough riders

at the moment GW Rough riders would set me back too much and Id like to eat and play wargames this week not just play wargames. lol