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Hey just looking for a critique. I can't change much, its all built or being painted for an upcoming tourney. Just wondering what your opinions are about glaring weaknesses and codexs/lists to look out for.

NOTE: List has been drastically edited from the original.

HQ:

Prince w/wings
- MoN
- WT

Prince w/wings
- MoK

Troops:

8 Khorne Berzerkers
- Champ PF
- icon
- Rhino

8 Khorne Berzerkers
- Champ PF
- icon
- Rhino

7 Plague Marines
- Champ PF combi flamer
- 2 x Meltas
- icon
- rhino

7 Plague Marines
- Champ PF combi Melta
- 2 x Flamers
- icon
-rhino

Heavy Support:

Predator
- AC
- LC sponsoons

Predator
- AC
- LC sponsoons

3 x Obliterators

with all the meltas running around would be wary of taking a land raider. spend the points on a 4th rhino and a lord with a blood feeder. consider taking the sponsons off the predators and just using them to screen the rhinos? with meltas on the rhinos and a few more terminators with combi-meltas you'll be good against tanks. just my thoughts.

It looks like a good list IMO, I think you'll have most anti-tank bases covered, with the termicides taking out particularly heavy enemy armour and the pred's and land raider taking out the other tanks, combined with the powerfists and kharn I think you should be OK.

Tbh I completely disagree with the suggestion of dropping the sponsons, I feel a predator is no use without sponsons, why pay 70pts for a screen?!

You may consider upgrading the dakka pred to have the AC/LC loadout like the others, just to assure your anti-tank capabilites, or dropping the predator and the Landraider bezerkers' power weapon to squeeze in the DP. Although at these points I wouldnt recommend taking a single DP, you may be surprised at what he'll get done.

But yeah, I think it's a solid list, may actually need some more troops, but to be honest, I disagree with Glory's suggestions.

Good Luck.

Thanks for the advice so far. I have been trying to find a way to put in the DP but he just never seems to fit. The Land Raider was a last minute addition, in a desire to have Kharn in a better delivery system. I was thinking of using the rhinos as cover saves for the Land Raider.

Before the Land Raider was in all 4 squads were in rhinos with the last squad having the adition of a champ with a power weapon, another termicide and the dakka pred was upgraded to LC spoons. I think I remember it worked out to 28 points left and I was going to use it for icons and stuff but leaving 8 points as a sacrifice to the Blood God.

What do you think of the Land Raiderless build?

Oh and I forgot to put up top that I have 20 lsser demon as well. Editing.

Your zerker squads are very nice. The exact same way i use them.

I think your Predators are cost efficient and effective. I have heard arguments both ways saying to upgrade the AC to a TL lascannon, but when using just Lascannon sponsons, you have points, get two strength 7 shots, and when using lascannon sponsons as opposed to lascannon turret you have the ability to make 2 lascannon hits instead of 1. But 1 should always make it.

The only think i am having a bit of trouble with is the terminators and the landraider. It seems kind of shoved in there. If you are putting kharn in there with the terminators, make sure to have the combi-meltas in melta range when you unload, then after if the tank is not destroyed, (which will happen with combi weapons) charge the tank. Kharn rolls 2D6 for armor penetration and that should do the trick. Just be carefull about how they are used.

Overall a very deadly list.

mrwittwer wrote:Your zerker squads are very nice. The exact same way i use them.

I think your Predators are cost efficient and effective. I have heard arguments both ways saying to upgrade the AC to a TL lascannon, but when using just Lascannon sponsons, you have points, get two strength 7 shots, and when using lascannon sponsons as opposed to lascannon turret you have the ability to make 2 lascannon hits instead of 1. But 1 should always make it.

The only think i am having a bit of trouble with is the terminators and the landraider. It seems kind of shoved in there. If you are putting kharn in there with the terminators, make sure to have the combi-meltas in melta range when you unload, then after if the tank is not destroyed, (which will happen with combi weapons) charge the tank. Kharn rolls 2D6 for armor penetration and that should do the trick. Just be carefull about how they are used.

Overall a very deadly list.

Oh sorry I guess I should have stated that the terminators will be deep striking and kharn will be with some zerkers waiting outside the Raider on turn 1.

the reason i say drop the sponsons is that predators arent really that good at killing tanks. obliterators or more terminators are stronger for that. screening your rhinos is a really big deal. if your army has to walk you're going to lose against anyone who knows what they're doing.

did you consider personal icons in your squads? for 5 points it could be a good investment....

I fail to see, even in the melta-meta-game, how 2x str 7 + 2x str9 shots aren't good at killing tanks, I admit, they will struggle against AV14-13 but anything less will be in a serious problem, these pred's should be particularly effective at taking out transports (and vendetta's etc.).

I also think it's unlikely that an opponent will take out all his rhino's and a landraider, combined with the three predator threats, that's a fair bit of target saturation...


Anyways, OP: I prefer your land-raider build, seems more deadly to me, I still wonder about fitting another zerker squad in there but otherwise it's all good. Although, as Glory said, I dont think icons would be a bad choice...

Dave...lascannons and autocannons usually have to shoot at things in cover. deepstriking meltaguns don't.

dont have to take out all the rhinos to stop the army. 1 or two will do just fine. do you want to assault with all your berserkers or half of them?

the land raider is a 250 point tank that dies to a 10 point gun. thats why you shouldnt take it.

The entire enemy army wont be in cover though, he has units for both circumstances. Not to mention the 48" range of the predators, who are much superior at taking out light-armour, whereas the termies can take care of most heavy armour.

No you dont, however 16-24 zerkers is still a helluva threat. It's not simply black and white, there's the grey in between; yeah ideally you'd want to charge with all your bezerkers but that's highly unlikely, the point of multiple targets/units is so that casulties are expected and ignored.

that 10 point gun takes out almost anything. You can't say that you shouldnt take landraiders simply because they can be destroyed, the landraider is 240pts of goodness, guns, transport, armour and assualting, it's got it all and if the enemy focusses on the Landraider then that's OK because that allows the rhino's to get through...

I dont want to come across as aggressive, but I disagree with your opinion in this matter. I say his army is fine as it is and minimizing the pred's (and/or losing the Landraider) will only damage his list.

Also note that the 10 point gun has to get within 6" to be effective. The LR isn't a point sink like you think it it. With 3 Preds, 3 Rhinos, and a LR there are too many targets for your opponent to choose from.

And what exactly are the Preds shooting at that are in cover? They're made for taking out transports like Falcons, which they do quite well at, which aren't always in cover.

They're definitely a point sink.
1 armor 14 blows against meltas
2 250 points is too much to pay for 2 tl lascannons and a tl heavy bolter
3 your not going to shoot those guns anyway if your using it as a transport
4 it could have been a whole squad of berserkers, half a dozen terminators etc. Think of everything your giving up just to bring that 1 tank.

Whatever. You've either seen this play out on the table or you haven't.

Glory, I think you are greatly exaggerating the effectiveness of meltas (especially deep striking ones) against hard armor.

My only addition to your list, OP, is that you don't have a lot to deal with massed infantry (Orks, Tyranids, etc.) weapon wise, though I guess you can just assault'em and hope for the best, or can you get bolters on Berserkers?

GloryToThe16th wrote:They're definitely a point sink.
1 armor 14 blows against meltas
2 250 points is too much to pay for 2 tl lascannons and a tl heavy bolter
3 your not going to shoot those guns anyway if your using it as a transport
4 it could have been a whole squad of berserkers, half a dozen terminators etc. Think of everything your giving up just to bring that 1 tank.

Whatever. You've either seen this play out on the table or you haven't.

1 everything blows against melta, by that stanard no tanks should eve be taken. Also, thats why its melta, its good at killing tanks.
2 chaos landraiders are 220 points. And its worth its survivability, transport alone. Then after is when the guns are used. Usually shooing with my landraider starts on turn3
3 Yes you will be shooting. With a total of 7 armored units, to spend the time it takes to just kill the landraider is pointless to the enemy. They should be worried about the three rhinos full of zerkers. If they decide to focus the landradier then it has done its job and milkstorm wins.
4 he already has 36 bezerkers, thats alot of troops and on the charge that comes out to 144 strength 5 attacks. Enough to kill just about anything. What he needs exactly is a landraider, something big, tough, and a distraction that can do some serious work.

I fail to see how any of your arguments hold any weight. And you fail to see the value of a landraider beyond its killing potential.

Idea: Drop the landraider and put Kharne in another Rhino with the fourth squad. Frankly if doesn't matter if he kills em.

Use 250 points on whatever else takes your fancy.

More terminators maybe, another clutch, and existing squads boosted to 4.

Suggest one dude in each termi squad rake the heavy flamer option. You cannot be sure that its only heavy armour that needs popping. The flamer has high odds of getting points back if you deep strike in range of infantry (high odds).

Solid list if you can get a good rhino rush happening.

OTG.

Don't take a bloodfeeder. I used to like them. Then I played with one. Almost 4 out of 10 my Lord was hurting himself. Your list is fine the way it is.

RxGhost wrote:Glory, I think you are greatly exaggerating the effectiveness of meltas (especially deep striking ones) against hard armor.

My only addition to your list, OP, is that you don't have a lot to deal with massed infantry (Orks, Tyranids, etc.) weapon wise, though I guess you can just assault'em and hope for the best, or can you get bolters on Berserkers?

I think you have basically stated my fear. I'm going to get a chance to try it out on nids in the next few days. I think it'll just take some clever manuvering on my part to make sure the zerks get the charge. My regular opponents are heavy on skimmers and IG tank lines so I tend to think mostly about anti armor. 7 zerkers with a champ on a charge is 22 attacks at ws 5, int 5 and str 5, then the champ depending on his weapon is either 3 or 4 attacks. This is why I like the dakka pred to soften things up, it can also still shoot at armor 10 -11 targets and disable them.

I'm going to test the land raider list first, theres something sexy about one armor 14 and 3 armor 11's filled with berzerkers rumbling down towards my enemies supported by 3 armor 13's. As for icons I can't find room in the raider list, Kharn has one so at least there will be one on the board.

mr wittwer... i know you fail to see how my arguments hold weight. key word fail. its ok

GloryToThe16th wrote:mr wittwer... i know you fail to see how my arguments hold weight. key word fail. its ok

What a strong counter argument. My work is done.

Well good luck to you Milkstorm, I think your list will cope very well against the skimmers and imperial guard tanks. However with the release of the latest codex the tyranids may be tricky, but I still think your list should be able to handle them with your set-up! Good luck, but i dont think you'll need it!

And Glory, I think the fact that so-far no-one has come along agreeing with you about land-raiders being a waste shows the strength of your argument...

Dave... OrcTownGrot suggested he drop the land raider. read before you post.

Glory, you said "They're definitely a point sink. ", OrkTownGrot didnt criticise the Landraider itself, he simply suggested dropping it for other things. if you read what I said ("so-far no-one has come along agreeing with you about land-raiders being a waste"), I am still correct.

even so, OrkTownGrot also said that it will work if he gets the rhino rush happening; something much more likely to work with the saturation provided by a landraider and (actually threatening) predators. as Mr Wittwer said "With a total of 7 armored units, to spend the time it takes to just kill the landraider is pointless to the enemy. They should be worried about the three rhinos full of zerkers. If they decide to focus the landradier then it has done its job and milkstorm wins."

I'm simply interpreting what OldTownGrot said, as so far, no-one else has said that a Land Raider is a waste of points...

read before you post eh?

yawn. get a life.

Well I think the moral of the story is :

Don't tell someone that a unit is useless because you think it is.

I don't use Land Raiders too much but its due to MY perspective of the game. I face Railguns and swarms of fusion blaster pirhanas all the time. Its why I've gravitated to a rhino rush. Now the key thing here is not to expect other players to have the same experience as I have. Just because one person has had a bad experience with a unit doesn't mean that outcome is absolute.

I have 3 games lined up in the next week with friends. My original build with 4 rhinos, 3 AC/LC preds and 3 termicides will do well, I know this because its my comfort zone. With this in mind I'll be trying out the land raider first, if the outcome isn't good I'll be using the rhinos for the tournament.

I'll post the outcome of the battles as they happen. I'll be facing a Nid swarm, an IG tank line and my best friends crazy mech Tau.

again, thanks for all the advice so far.

Mech Tau.... I can certainly see why you wouldnt invest the points in a landraider when facing railguns often.

GloryToThe16th wrote: consider taking the sponsons off the predators and just using them to screen the rhinos? with meltas on the rhinos and a few more terminators with combi-meltas you'll be good against tanks. just my thoughts.

Possibly the worst strategy Ive ever read on here.

GloryToThe16th wrote:Dave...lascannons and autocannons usually have to shoot at things in cover. deepstriking meltaguns don't.

Aside from fast moving vehicles/smoke, I can't remember the last time a vehicle received a cover save. Meltaguns dont negate those cover saves.

For 130 points you get 2 lascannon and 2 autocannon shots. For 150 points of obliterators, you get 2 lascannon shots. Long range fire is essential, especially if youre playing something like Eldar (where meltas do nothing). Youll never kill mech eldar by running 3 sponsonless predators. Youll never beat IG by running up the field and praying they miss the entire time. Orks need to be held at bay with their trucks and wagons or youll be completely overrun. Even Space Marines require some long range shooting to slow them down.

Obliterators deepstriking means you have no long range fire for atleast 2-3 turns. Then when they actually come in, youre risking scattering (if you have marines nearby to home in on, why do you need oblits to kill the tank?). Then theres still no guarantee they take the tank out. Next turn they die and you spent 150/225 points to possibly kill one tank.

Meltas are good. They are not good enough to be the entire army's sole source of anti tank.

night lords its true meltaguns don't negate cover saves. its not the melta rule - its the short range. as a circle gets smaller the distance you have to travel to reorient to the center from any point on the circumfrance decreases. so if 12" or less away it's much easier to move around obstructions than if you're at 48". thats why meltas dont get blocked by cover as much. agree?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
look milk asked for opinions, i gave one: land raiders are a point sink, dont bring them, here's why:

1. when you buy a land raider you're paying for the guns and the transport capacity. but its either shooting or moving. it cant do both. so you'll only get half of its effectiveness on any one turn.

2. most armies have a unit that can smoke a land raider by turn 2. dont believe me? its obliterators for chaos, land speeders and vulcan hestan for marines (tigerius to make sure they show on time), pirannhas for tau, fire dragons for eldar, imperial guard veterans can melt any target on the table on turn 1 if they're riding a valkrye and have the 1st turn. who cares if you have to suicide a unit to stop a 220 point tank + the uber squad inside.

3. does anyone think 220 points is a good price for two tl lascannons and a tl heavy bolter?

4. melta is not overrated. its a 50% chance to kill any tank if you roll on the penetrating hit table, and better than 50% to immobilize it. it's never worse than a 50% chance to penetrate, and you'll usually be melting with more than 1 unit. take the land speeders. tigerius makes sure they show on time. 3+ to hit x2, with twin-link from vulkan means you'll generally hit with both, 2d6 +8 means you penetrate on any roll of 7 or better, ie 50% of the time, so you're almost always penetrating with 1, and often though not always with both, ap 1 means you destroy on a 4 or better, immobilize on a 3 or better, alternately on a 1. and it usually doesnt get obstructed by cover b/c of the geometry of small vs. big circles. its easier to move aroudn obstructions when you're closer. besides that, and on a completely different vein, they instant kill a lot of obnoxious units... sm and csm heroes, tau crisis suits, obliterators, nobz. oh and their dirt cheap. there's a reason hard boyz lists run these things in spades.

5. now look at what those points could have been. half a dozen terminators with combi-weapons, a squad of hard core cult troops, a pair of vindicators, 3 obliterators... all of which kill more and die less than a land raider.

believe me? great. dont beleive me? great.

night lords its true meltaguns don't negate cover saves. its not the melta rule - its the short range. as a circle gets smaller the distance you have to travel to reorient to the center from any point on the circumfrance decreases. so if 12" or less away it's much easier to move around obstructions than if you're at 48". thats why meltas dont get blocked by cover as much. agree?

Glory, this was intended to help Milk, not to spark a debate about whether Land Raiders are good or not or whether melta guns are the best anti-tank. Milk has basically (correct me if Im wrong) decided that he will try both strategies. Strategies which I think most people on here feel would work better with a Land Raider. Hell, I generally dont like Termicides but they work well with the list, just because you dont like Landraiders doesnt mean it doesnt work with the list, it will provide extra anti-tank, armour saturation and a reliable way of deploying Kharn and his buddies, now as intellectual as your argument is ("yawn. get a life."), most people here simply dont agree.

Technically you can move and shoot, if your facing something such as Orks or other CC armies then you can use the pred's and landraider to provide covering fire, whilst the termicides disrupt and the rhino's engage, then the Land Raider can counter-assault. You're effectively criticizing flexibility, Razorbacks have a heavy weapon too but then are highly effective and versatile units...

Yes, most armies do, but that is another advantage of a Land Raider; it's a considerable distraction. For one thing the enemies have to get past the rhino's and covering fire, and then they actually have to hope to be able to take out the 2nd toughest vehicle in the standard game. It's not as easy a task as you make out, melta's can destroy it, yes, melta's can destroy almost anything, doesnt mean they will or have the opportunity to. It can be destroyed, yes, ponentially by your aforementioned suicide unit, taking anything expensive is a risk, however this risk comes with a potentially devastating reward, the raider and it's transport can be game winning, however I dont see it as sacrificing the game if it's destroyed.

220pts is a lot to pay for the weaponry attached. however it's a fair price for AV42, assault ramp and significant firepower. if it was such an extortionate points cost then they wouldnt cost even more in the regular marine codices.

We (or I at least) accept the melta's are generally the 1st choice for anti-tank, understandably so, as they are the best at it, however they are not without their flaws; namely the extremely short range in particular. A army that relies solely on melta's (like the one you are suggesting) can, and in all possibility, will struggle. However Milk's army has the melta's to take out units in cover and/or particularly heavy vehicles, whilst he has the pred's and LR to take out transports and longer-ranged targets. it's the best mix. as night lords said: "Meltas are good. They are not good enough to be the entire army's sole source of anti tank. "

I think Milk's policy of trying is the best option and I think it is wrong of you to completely disregard the Landraider, although there are other options, I and several others agree that the Landraider is the best for the circumstances... Hell, I've considered your opinion and I simply dont agree that any of what you suggested will be as useful...

without trying to be condescending, also try to remembed Rule No.1. I've tried to remain polite and bring across my opinion, you I could say less for...


Good Luck Milk (particularly with the Land-raider!)

Just Dave wrote:
Yes, most armies do, but that is another advantage of a Land Raider; it's a considerable distraction. For one thing the enemies have to get past the rhino's and covering fire, and then they actually have to hope to be able to take out the 2nd toughest vehicle in the standard game. It's not as easy a task as you make out, melta's can destroy it, yes, melta's can destroy almost anything, doesnt mean they will or have the opportunity to. It can be destroyed, yes, ponentially by your aforementioned suicide unit, taking anything expensive is a risk, however this risk comes with a potentially devastating reward, the raider and it's transport can be game winning, however I dont see it as sacrificing the game if it's destroyed.

220pts is a lot to pay for the weaponry attached. however it's a fair price for AV14, assault ramp and significant firepower. if it was such an extortionate points cost then they wouldnt cost even more in the regular marine codices.

We (or I at least) accept the melta's are generally the 1st choice for anti-tank, understandably so, as they are the best at it, however they are not without their flaws; namely the extremely short range in particular. A army that relies solely on melta's (like the one you are suggesting) can, and in all possibility, will struggle. However Milk's army has the melta's to take out units in cover and/or particularly heavy vehicles, whilst he has the pred's and LR to take out transports and longer-ranged targets. it's the best mix. as night lords said: "Meltas are good. They are not good enough to be the entire army's sole source of anti tank. "

QFT

IMO, meltas are a fantastic anti-tank as they were designed. However, the short range really is a bugger. Often times is see my melta squads focused and killed due to their overwhelming anti-tank ability as well as the fact they need to be so close. I think the true effectiveness behind a melta is the person playing them and how well they are able to actually maneuver into proper range. Where as lascannons come at a constant strength 9 and arent terribly difficult to use. (Put Predator in back, shoot at anything big)

I myself hate termicide. Maybe im doing it wrong, but i rarely am able to deepstrike within proper range, and if i scatter they die due to being behind enemy lines. Also, another downer to termicide is they are a one shot deal. If you have 3 combi-meltas and only 2 hit. Thats all you got. Pray to the dice gods you make those hits penerate and roll a 4+ on the damage table. A lot of variables for a suicide unit to be able to work at their best efficiency. Now, others really do like termicide, i dont discredit them as it obviously works somehow. Otherwise people wouldnt use it. Milk has the best strategy, find what works, find what works best for him. Then he uses it. I think thats how we all learn to play.