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Now that we have what is likely the current playtest version of the upcoming Codex: Blood Angels to work from, it seems sensible to move discussion from News & Rumours to Tactics.

So what looks good? Are Death Company worth the points? Are Exalted? Is it possible to make a viable list without Seth or Lemartes? Is the Storm Harbinger a worthwhile addition to the Space Marine armoury? What does everybody think?

For anyone who hasn't seen the document in question, plenty of information can be found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275431.page

I'm totally in love with the Harbinger. I play a vanilla SM Drop Pod list right now, but if the rumors are false, and vanilla SM's don;t gain access to it in the near future through the Battle Missions book or some other way, I'm probably going to switch to the BA codex just to field it.

My real issue there is that I still want to play a fairly shooty list. Obviously, since BA is a CC-oriented army, I'm struggling to find ways to make this viable.

Specifically, I'm thinking of taking an Astorath 'counts as' getting rid of the possibility of having to deal with Rage, as he swaps Red Thirst for Stubbord, army wide.

Other than that, due to the cost of Harbingers, I'm thinking I'm going to avoid alot in the way of frills in the list. I haven;t done the calculations yet, But I know that my list is going to include a minimum of three Tactical squads with Harbingers armed with TL-Meltaguns and maximum Hunter Killer missiles. Depending on my remaining points, I'd like to either take a:

-Devastator Squad with Harbinger,
-A forth Tac Squad with Harbinger,
two five man Scout squads, one with sniper rifles, one with CCWs, and maybe that Special Sergeant for the Scouts, and a LSS Storm
-A Sternguard equivalent, if there's some way of coming by one that I've overlooked, and of course a Harbinger.
- if I'm lacking firepower, perhaps a Land Speeder squadron,
-An Assault Squad in a Harbinger, if I seriously feel like I'm lacking close combat staying power.

The strategy for the list would revolve around rushing the squads into advantageous positions with the Harbingers, (objectives in Seize Ground, vantage points in Anihilation) and after that, using the Harbingers as close air support. I figure with the Tantalus Assault Cannons and the HK Missiles and TL Meltaguns, a Harbinger will have pretty good potential AV and AI firepower. Also, the Tac Squads will be toting heavy and special weapons.

I'm going to work this list together at some point today.

I think the fact that BA have to be a Cc orientated army is overstated a lot. They have all the tools to make the same shooty army that codex marines make (sans TFC's) but back it up with better assault troops.

I'm probably going to try something similar to the codex marines list i use but with multiple missile launcher preds in the place of dakka preds. 3 MML Baals and 3 typhoons provide a pretty decent amount of anti everything but Av14 fire and come in at 570 points which leaves plenty of points for the choppy bits.

For fun I also want to play around with a crusader with 3-4 LC termies and 3-4 TH/SS termies with a SHP with the grail. Preferred enemy + FC lightning claws make a mess of anything but vehicles and you have the TH's for that.

While the Harbinger sounds exciting, at first glance, I'm not sure that I'll actually use it as a transport for infantry, at least at low point level games (1500). They are going to be high profile, high priority targets. To me fielding just 1 means that you are going to be shot out of the sky pretty fast so you need to take at least 2. If you take 2 squads of assault marines or Terminators w/Harbinger then you are pushing close 750 pts. Tactical squads just don't seem to give you enough fire power when they disembark and if I want to hold and keep an objective then I'll stick with Over Charged Engine Rhinos at 35 pts.

However throw in 2 Attack bikes w/Heavy Bolters or Multi Meltas depending upon your needs and you can get your point level down to 220 or 260.

A Dreadnaught would be my second choice because it gives you 2 armored units to shoot at instead of just one. The enemy might have to split their fire which means one of the two units will survive to create some damage but I prefer the mobility of the attack bikes.

I might also use the Harbinger to take the place of my Assault Cannon Armed Baal Predators. While the Tantalus has less range than the assault cannon, it hits harder. Plus the harbinger is more maneuverable and durable than the Baal w/over charged engines since now if the Baal moves over 12" to get into position it counts as open topped and any immobilized hits become destroyed hits.

Khornatedemon wrote:I think the fact that BA have to be a Cc orientated army is overstated a lot. They have all the tools to make the same shooty army that codex marines make (sans TFC's) but back it up with better assault troops.

I'm probably going to try something similar to the codex marines list i use but with multiple missile launcher preds in the place of dakka preds. 3 MML Baals and 3 typhoons provide a pretty decent amount of anti everything but Av14 fire and come in at 570 points which leaves plenty of points for the choppy bits.

For fun I also want to play around with a crusader with 3-4 LC termies and 3-4 TH/SS termies with a SHP with the grail. Preferred enemy + FC lightning claws make a mess of anything but vehicles and you have the TH's for that.

I don't think that the BA's rules force you to play them as a CC-oriented army. You're right in that you can write up a shooty BA list that's almost entirely parallel to a shooty SM list for the same cost (BA Tac squads will be a little cheaper, MML Baal Preds will be a little more expensive, but it generally equals out). But I don't think that doing so gives you any advantages you don't already have with an SM army. In fact, unless you're using Astorath, you've got a big disadvantage in a shooty army with the Red Thirst - who knows when your objective-holding Tac Squad is going to decide to leave the objective to go chase some enemy tail? IMHO, you can make a shooty BA army that may be as good as an SM army, but it won't be better.

The new BA codex is geared towards 2 things - assaulting (which everyone and their brother knows), but more importantly, speed (in particular the ability to Alpha Strike). If you're not taking advantage of these things, sure, you can play your army, but you could play a similar army with SM or BT or SW, but you're not really utilizing what makes the codex really unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nosferatu wrote:While the Harbinger sounds exciting, at first glance, I'm not sure that I'll actually use it as a transport for infantry, at least at low point level games (1500). They are going to be high profile, high priority targets. To me fielding just 1 means that you are going to be shot out of the sky pretty fast so you need to take at least 2. If you take 2 squads of assault marines or Terminators w/Harbinger then you are pushing close 750 pts. Tactical squads just don't seem to give you enough fire power when they disembark and if I want to hold and keep an objective then I'll stick with Over Charged Engine Rhinos at 35 pts.

See, I don't see much difference between a Harbinger and a Valkyrie in how they're used. A Harbinger has more flexibility in it's use, but less flexibility in its firepower, but is fairly similar cost-wise. Just like a Valk or Vendetta, you choose the Harbinger's armament and payload based on how you want to hunt with it. If you're going to load the Harbinger with a tank-killing unit, like a Melta/Infernus Tac Squad, Powerfist DCs, or a 3x Melta VAS, then give it TL Flamers (or if you're in a MEq-heavy environment TL Plasma). If you're going to load the Harbinger with infantry-killers like an Assault Squad, Exalted (using a borrowed Harbinger, naturally), or PW DCs, then give it the TL Meltas and HKs. I mean, this is standard fare for IG players with their Valks and, if anything, Harbingers are tougher than Valks are.

I'm a huge fan of the Fast Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks personally. I'm stoked about those sweeping up the field with Devastators w/the grenade launchers. Massive up close and personal shooting supporting a fast and nasty CC component. I also love the idea of dropping a Librarian dread w/the shockwave power against mech guard is gonna be sweet!

If BA attempt to play like SM, they will not be able to do so efficiently. Blood Angels are inferior to Space Marines at being Space Marines. They need to play to their unique strengths in order to be successful and efficient.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm a huge fan of the Fast Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks personally. I'm stoked about those sweeping up the field with Devastators w/the grenade launchers. Massive up close and personal shooting supporting a fast and nasty CC component. I also love the idea of dropping a Librarian dread w/the shockwave power against mech guard is gonna be sweet!

My understanding is that while Rhinos can get overcharged engines and Preds can get them, none of the other Rhino-chassis vehicles can get them. The GL Devs are interesting, but I don't know if they'll be worth their points cost, though - I mean, look at it this way, while the GLs may only cost 5 points each, you're paying 4 pts more per model for the privilege of getting to use it. Is massed GL fire worth 9 pts a model? I'm not sure - that pretty quickly adds up to the cost of extra Assault Marines.

Razorback isn't fast

Missed that about the Razorbacks, that's a bummer but it's still all good. As for the GL's I think 8 St6 shots is nasty anyway you cut it. It's only a 5 point upgrade which is actually amazing if you like that close support role. I'll have to play test it but I think it'll work well in my idea of a list.

A libby dread with shockwave in a drop pod and 2 units of multi melta attack bikes in Harbingers will cause havoc for most IG gun lines. Sure It'll cost over 700 points, but 4 multi meltas at close range, a shockwave, and then a pinning assault cannon will cause lots of problems.

Hulksmash wrote:It's only a 5 point upgrade which is actually amazing if you like that close support role. I'll have to play test it but I think it'll work well in my idea of a list.

It's only a 5 point upgrade, but you're paying 20 points more for the Devastator Squad than you are for a Tac Squad. It could be worth it, but I'm suspicious of it at this point.

The Devastator squad costs the same in mine as the tac squad. I don't see where you are finding the extra 20pts? Base cost of each is 85pts. Maybe I missed something else?

Doh - you're right. For some reason I was thinking Tac Squads were cheaper. My bad. Sorry, Hulk!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:I think the fact that BA have to be a Cc orientated army is overstated a lot. They have all the tools to make the same shooty army that codex marines make (sans TFC's) but back it up with better assault troops.

I'm probably going to try something similar to the codex marines list i use but with multiple missile launcher preds in the place of dakka preds. 3 MML Baals and 3 typhoons provide a pretty decent amount of anti everything but Av14 fire and come in at 570 points which leaves plenty of points for the choppy bits.

For fun I also want to play around with a crusader with 3-4 LC termies and 3-4 TH/SS termies with a SHP with the grail. Preferred enemy + FC lightning claws make a mess of anything but vehicles and you have the TH's for that.

I don't think that the BA's rules force you to play them as a CC-oriented army. You're right in that you can write up a shooty BA list that's almost entirely parallel to a shooty SM list for the same cost (BA Tac squads will be a little cheaper, MML Baal Preds will be a little more expensive, but it generally equals out). But I don't think that doing so gives you any advantages you don't already have with an SM army. In fact, unless you're using Astorath, you've got a big disadvantage in a shooty army with the Red Thirst - who knows when your objective-holding Tac Squad is going to decide to leave the objective to go chase some enemy tail? IMHO, you can make a shooty BA army that may be as good as an SM army, but it won't be better.

The new BA codex is geared towards 2 things - assaulting (which everyone and their brother knows), but more importantly, speed (in particular the ability to Alpha Strike). If you're not taking advantage of these things, sure, you can play your army, but you could play a similar army with SM or BT or SW, but you're not really utilizing what makes the codex really unique.

I'm not sold on red thirst being the huge disadvantage for tacs. First you have to fail the leadership check, then there needs to be an enemy within 12', and it does squat if your in a transport. If there is an enemy unit within 12" that they cant kill I think your objective holding tactical squad has bigger things to worry about.

What I was trying to touch on was how a lot of people are throwing out lists that are nothing but CC based. Which is fine if your not expecting to win much against competitive players. But a fast army that packs a good cc punch backed up by a decent amount of cheap long range shooting will be much more effective. Sure BA can get lots of meltas but having played vulkan lists since the marine codex came out I can tell you that trying to get close to melta chimeras against a guard army will lead to dead marines. Maybe its just where i play but short range doesnt cut it anymore, you need long range can openers to be able to assault the juicy bits inside.

Khornatedemon wrote:I'm not sold on red thirst being the huge disadvantage for tacs. First you have to fail the leadership check, then there needs to be an enemy within 12', and it does squat if your in a transport. If there is an enemy unit within 12" that they cant kill I think your objective holding tactical squad has bigger things to worry about.

Those are some good points, and in particular, meching up does pretty well solve the problem. However, I think that there are lots of squads that can get within 12" of a Tac Squad that could be used to lure them off the objective. Tac Squads don't have -that- much firepower.

Khornatedemon wrote:What I was trying to touch on was how a lot of people are throwing out lists that are nothing but CC based. Which is fine if your not expecting to win much against competitive players. But a fast army that packs a good cc punch backed up by a decent amount of cheap long range shooting will be much more effective. Sure BA can get lots of meltas but having played vulkan lists since the marine codex came out I can tell you that trying to get close to melta chimeras against a guard army will lead to dead marines. Maybe its just where i play but short range doesnt cut it anymore, you need long range can openers to be able to assault the juicy bits inside.

And I definitely agree with you on this point. Building a completely CC-based army would be foolish. But by the same token, building a shooty BA army is like building a shooty BT army, or a shooty SW army, or a shooty DA army - you can do it, but it's largely suboptimal compared to building the same army with the vanilla list.

Have you built a shooty SW army yet Death? The razor spam/longfang spam lists are just plain nasty and put a lot more shots and specials on the field than anything a SM player could. I like the look of the leak as it leans heavily toward my style of play. I'm hoping it's the real deal

Yeah, I was going to caveat my list above with regard to the SW dex as they can actually put together a pretty mean shooty army, but I left it out for the principle of what I was trying to say. You can make a shooty army with SW, but I don't think it's going to invalidate the SM codex.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:I'm not sold on red thirst being the huge disadvantage for tacs. First you have to fail the leadership check, then there needs to be an enemy within 12', and it does squat if your in a transport. If there is an enemy unit within 12" that they cant kill I think your objective holding tactical squad has bigger things to worry about.

Those are some good points, and in particular, meching up does pretty well solve the problem. However, I think that there are lots of squads that can get within 12" of a Tac Squad that could be used to lure them off the objective. Tac Squads don't have -that- much firepower.

Khornatedemon wrote:What I was trying to touch on was how a lot of people are throwing out lists that are nothing but CC based. Which is fine if your not expecting to win much against competitive players. But a fast army that packs a good cc punch backed up by a decent amount of cheap long range shooting will be much more effective. Sure BA can get lots of meltas but having played vulkan lists since the marine codex came out I can tell you that trying to get close to melta chimeras against a guard army will lead to dead marines. Maybe its just where i play but short range doesnt cut it anymore, you need long range can openers to be able to assault the juicy bits inside.

And I definitely agree with you on this point. Building a completely CC-based army would be foolish. But by the same token, building a shooty BA army is like building a shooty BT army, or a shooty SW army, or a shooty DA army - you can do it, but it's largely suboptimal compared to building the same army with the vanilla list.

Yeah i wasnt advocating taking a full shooty list. I'm interested in trying the 570 points of 3 MML baals and 3 typhoons backed up by some solid CC units. Even regular assault squads arent terrible when in the FC/PE bubble, given a decent amount of terrain or a land raider to hide behind. Even triple melta in a drop pod isnt a bad choice imo.