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Ok one of my freinds has decided to join us in ouer little gaming group. And he is intrested in the Tau. Since I myself is still in the proces of assembling my orcs and have never actually played a game, I decided to ask for some help here. In my group I am the unemployed geek that has to deal with the rule learning and advice giving ^^

I have looked a bit on the tau, they apear shooty (freind likes that) and most stuff seem to come in plastic wich should make them somewhat cheap to collect. First thing I noticed is that the battle box cost as much as one box of fire warriors, a devil fish and a crissis suit. So that means you get the stealth suits and kroots for free. Is it worth buying 2 boxes to start out with?

We have decided to start out with 1000 point lists, and I want to ask if some of you can help with cheap to buy 1000 point lists that still remains somewhat competitiv (I am aware tau is low tire). Or just the things He should be looking at and what to avoid as the plauge. Or just anything at all.
His regular oponents will be space marines, space wolves, chaos space marines, and me as ork's. Thank god he dident pick up another space marine army

Apreciate any input.

Ah well the rate of winning does not look good im afraid, especially in the current climate of CC heavy armies (like SW, SM, CSM and orks!) tau will have a very difficult time. All I can suggest is getting ALLOT of rail guns and plenty of firewarriors with develfish to keep them mobile and not stick in CC.

And buy Crisis Suits. Lots of them. They are at least semi-competent in CC (S5, T4, 3+ Sv) and they're what give Tau the strategy of JSJ. I would stay away from Stealth Suits for the most part, as they are way overcost for what you get, which is typically a few burst cannons and a fusion gun or two. I only run them if I need their points, really; most of the time, they end up dead before they can even get within 6 inches of a vehicle.

Hi there mate. Great to hear you are recruiting more people for the Empire Let me start out by pointing you towards this site: http://forums.tauonline.org/. Personally I think it's the best site for Tau resources out there, and I learned a lot from reading on it when I first started out (with Tau as my first army). A couple of posts that could interest you are:

this thread with stickies and important topics

and

this one - labeled "how to start Tau"

But a quick summary could be:

Yes, two battle forces could be useful, if and only if your mate likes Kroot (it's very much a matter of taste - I love them, but many people tend to shy away from them). If not, just by the stuff seperately, 'cause you will rarely use 24 FWs in a competitive army and stealth suits are IMHO a weak unit.

A couple of advices would be:

Never field an Ethereal! and Vespids suck. Those two pieces of advice I recon next to all Tau Players in their right mind will agree with me on - if not just read the statlines

Other than that, the units are mostly usefull, with the Crisis Suit, the Hammerhead (either Ion or Rail head) and Broadside Suits being the powerful backbone of any mech/hybrid army, so I would definately start out getting a couple broadsides and either one or two Hammerheads, and 3-5 suits (remember, one comes in every Battle Force, so 2xBF and a Commander and you're practically ready). That should be enough for 1000-1500 point levels.

Last - and most important - advice is that if he decides that Hammerheads is his thing, then BUY THE SKYRAY BOX, it comes with everything the Hammerhead/Devilfish box comes with, and then some. At the same price. So that's really a no-brainer.

Hope it helps, and if not just ask away

I would use the 1000 point list from this:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/10/tau-escalation-league.html


If you buy a box of chaos hounds instead of the metal kroot hounds, you can get by pretty cheap.
That is probably the best list your going to be able to make at 1000 pts.

It is actually very competitive btw.

Also, I know it doesn't look as flashy without the hammerheads and broadsides, but at this points level, they are point sinks and too expensive. They have 1 limited role and so are not as good at cheaper levels.

Piranhas are amazing anti tank and they block movement. Its all about dual purpose at 1000 pts.

Wow I feel like I got more then I bargained for, Thanks guys.

vodo40k
If I notice that he falls behind to muh I'll alowe him discounts and stuff till he becomes competetive. We are all freinds and play mostly for fun. Some times we go to the local gaming club but mostly we play with ouerselfs (oh sounds so dirty).

Locclo
I belive the giant anime looking robots is why he likes tau so much, even if they were the crappiest unit in the game I'm sure he woulf field some ^^

Gorlack
Great site, have read the starting out thingie, and will read some more there. Great point on the battle box, I'll advice him on it. I also imagine that his chaos hounds will act nicley as kroothounds, if he likes the kroot that is.
Also Sky ray boxes is the way to go, that really helps, I can steal the leftover stuff and make some crazy looted ork weapons then

CptZach
Looks like a good list to build from also. He has some of the basics and can get the heavy stuff when/if we expand. To bad it dosent use more of the Battle box. But I will make sure to show him this. And pass on the broadsides hammerheads doing better in larger games.

Thanks for all the replies. I might ask some more questions when I have read up some more. If you have any other starting out tips feel free to share. And again thanks

CptZach wrote:I would use the 1000 point list from this:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/10/tau-escalation-league.html


If you buy a box of chaos hounds instead of the metal kroot hounds, you can get by pretty cheap.
That is probably the best list your going to be able to make at 1000 pts.

It is actually very competitive btw.

Also, I know it doesn't look as flashy without the hammerheads and broadsides, but at this points level, they are point sinks and too expensive. They have 1 limited role and so are not as good at cheaper levels.

Piranhas are amazing anti tank and they block movement. Its all about dual purpose at 1000 pts.

Ick.

First off, I love my tau. Excellent choice IMO. TauOnline.org is my main form, too, and I would very highly recommend that.

On the list above, I don't like it myself. Piranhas are bigger point sinks to me than most everything else in the tau armory. You get a burst cannon and two carbines... for sixty points. a hammerhead is almost the same points as two piranhas yet has two burst cannons (the main armory of the piranhas) AND the almighty railgun. It is a bit slower than the piranha but so what. And as for anti-tank, the railgun is one of the best if not the best antitank guns in the game, not to mention that your list there has 7 crisis suits to get that taken care of. Also the list lacks any devilfish, severly limiting you. Tau are not the best shooting army, but they do have some of the best mobile firepower. No fish means no mobility.

Your list is also missing a pathfinder squad, which for most tau players is a must for any game over 500 points.

And just 6 fire warriors? come on. Your really going to rely on your kroot for everything? What happens when you play a game with no forests or woods? then your going to see a big loss in their use. I love kroot and understand their uses both with and without woods/forests, but still, you need a decent base of FW's. Granted mayby not a full 24 of them but more than 6. As for choices on kroot hounds- http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,93247.0.html.

As for stealth suits being crappy, don't count em out just yet. It is all about how you use them and your army. Some people swear by them, others hate em. Use them correctly and they are devastating. use them incorrectly and they are a huge point sink. It's up to your friends play style and list.

For units not to use, Vespids are almost never used except when they are just fooling around, and most players agree on ethereals being junk, though I like them myself (tau have the worst leadership in the game and an ethereal allows you to completely control their leadership tests). If I have 50 points left over I usually add him in Piranhas are usually shyed away from though they have some great uses, especially for hitting tanks back armor if you add a seeker or two to them.

As said before, always buy skyrays. they come with peices for a devilfish, hammerhead, and skyray, and the extra peices are very nice. Skyrays themselves however are usually considered to be a unit not very useful (they are useful sometimes if used right but most tau dont use them).

Hope it helped a bit.

I gotta agree with Goldfish, the Piranha are a massive point sink. They have their uses, but I prefer them at higher points since they fill up much of your army at 1000 points, and don't really kill that much (they do so much more, but actual killing isn't their main force), whereas the hammerhead not only brings anti tank, it also brings a nice piece of pie for the Swarms. Nothing like laying a group of boys low with a single blast

I would also gear up 2 squads of minimized FWs in Devilfish's to skim around and contest/claim objectives, instead of just one squad of 6 that just stands there, but that comes down to personal preference. I play a hybrid Tau army (mostly), so the Devilfishs just comes naturally

If your mate happen to like the wonderful Kroot (and he will once he sees their sprues. It has a thousand small methingys that doesn't do anything other than add to the personality of the model, like a piece of ham on a hook! ), then I can only chime in with the others that a box of Chaos Warhounds are excellent. Just greenstuff their butts and horn-holes and paint them like your Kroot, and no one will ever notice anything. Many of my mates actually think the "real" Kroot Hound model looks odd now

But the best advice for what to include in a 1000 point list would be: "Proxy it at first!". Tau has a lot of variation and different playstyles (well... At least 3 major ones ), so I think a couple of games to get a feel for the army is the best thing before you dive in, so get a Battle Force and a Commander Suit (since you are forced to field one and might as well get an extra suit early on), and then go to town with that army. You should be able to field at least 600 points with ease, and perhaps even 750, so you wouldn't have to proxy much to get to a thousand.

Cheers,

Gorlak

Have spent some time surfing forums, reading the book and made some atempts on lists. Also talked briefly with my friend and he seems kinda set on buying 2 army deals and a comander.
My observersion is that as mentioned 2 army deals probably is only worth it if he likes the kroots and stealth suits. We are meeting up tommorov and I will be able to share my findings better.

Some problems I have ran in to when making lists is the equipment on the crissis suits and where to place the marker lights. Pathfinders are the cheapest pointwise, but they are metal and prolly expensive cash wise. Stealth suits can take em but cheapest version is a unit of three costing 165 points. Fire warriors can also load up on them, and if he goes for the dubble army deal it's probbably the best place to put them.

Also on the crissis suits, do you go for the bodygaurd or the cheper elite ones?

Also Gorlack and Fiercegoldfish, thanks for your coments, you have given me some more to ponder.

I'll have to run the diffrent play styles availible to the Tau for my friend. If I remeber corectly it's mech, gunline, hybrid and ninja. See what he says. But he will most likley go hybrid since it seems to be the most versitile.
Well I'm to tierd to think straight at the moment and will take another look at this tomorov.

rickie82 wrote:Some problems I have ran in to when making lists is the equipment on the crisis suits and where to place the marker lights. Pathfinders are the cheapest pointwise, but they are metal and prolly expensive cash wise. Stealth suits can take em but cheapest version is a unit of three costing 165 points. Fire warriors can also load up on them, and if he goes for the dubble army deal it's probbably the best place to put them.

Also on the crisis suits, do you go for the bodygaurd or the cheper elite ones?

For suits: It depends on what you want them to do. If you want to take out heavy infantry and tanks go helios (fusion blaster and plasma rifle). This will lay waste to Marines and light tanks very well as it doesn't allow for any armor saves on either gun and has very high strength.
Fireknife is another common one (missile and plasma). It is the best for heavy infantry and still has some light tank destroying ability (can penetrate armor of 12) and can put out 4 str 6+ shots within 12 inches.
Those are the two most common configurations, though others are used. It all depends on what your army needs. If you have a lot of high strength weapons that can take out tanks and heavy infantry, you may want to go with an anti-horde crisis suit instead with maybe a burst cannon or flamer. Conversely, if your weak vs. armor, then helios would be excellent configs. You can also magnetize the suits to switch around the suits.
For equipment; I put a multitracker on everything. I also throw in two drones in each crisis team to suck up insta-kill shots and things that ignore armor saves. On my commander I also like to put either two shield drones or a shield gen. Whether to make them bodyguards is a matter of how many points you have left and also whether you want them to have extra hardwired gear. I like to give my shas'o bodyguards also so that I can spread wounds a bit better.

For markerlights:
-Firewarriors are not good with them. Since markerlights are heavy weapons they cannot be shot unless you don't move, and thus having a markerlight limits your FW's movement. Also, to use it you need a shas'ui, and you also need a target lock so that he can shoot the markerlight at a differnt unit than everyone else (otherwise if he wants to mark, say, a tank, the rest of the FWs lose their shooting for that turn. all of this also adds 30 more points to your FW's. This makes markerlights with FWs not very popular
-Stealthsuits are fine with them, but as you said they are expensive points wise. Also stealth suits often deepstrike and thus you have no markerlight on turn one and risk not having one for a few more turns. Also this is still just one markerlight, and with markerlights, the more the merrier.
-Pathfinders are the general favorite. At 12 points a peice they are relatively cheep. The best parts about then are that they are scouts and have the markerbeacon. Scouts means they get a good position and can see all the targe ts that they will later have to mark. the beacon on their fish gives all deepstrikers a scatter re-roll which can be incredibly useful. Their fish doesn't have to stay with them the whole game, too, so they can ditch it in the game and it can go shuttle around your FWs or whatever. This squad would cost you just about 130 points and give you FOUR markerlights AND a fish. As for cost, yes they are a little expensive. $15 for three. That's not terrible though. An ethereal in comparison is three times as much per model.

I can only recommend magnetizing the Crisis Suits (well... Magnetize everything for that matter, but suits especially!) since this gives you a great variety for next to none extra expenses. www.amazingmagnets.com has great service and are dirt cheap even if you live outside the US. If I remember these are the two types that I use. Large ones inserted into the arms and into the weapons, small ones just fitted into the slots on the shoulders and in the bottom of the wargear (Multitracker, Target lock etc). You will off course need a drill also, but no Dremmel or other expensive type is needed.

D063A ~ 1/8" Dia x 1/16" Thick NdFeB Disc Magnet, Ni-Cu-Ni plated.
(1 Item = 100 magnets)
Product Part #: D063A


D032A ~ 1/8" Dia x 1/32" Thick NdFeB Disc Magnet, Ni-Cu-Ni plated.
(1 Item = 100 magnets)
Product Part #: D032A

Will also recommend these

D063A2 ~ 3/16" Dia x 1/16" Thick NdFeB Disc Magnet, Ni-Cu-Ni plated.
(1 Item = 50 magnets)
Product Part #: D063A2

for the Hammerhead, so he can change between Ionhead and Railhead (Tau Online of course has a great conversion guide - or perhaps it's more of a magnetization guide ).

As far as the markerlights go I would definately field them on Pathfinders. I know the model is metal and that sucks, but I made a pretty easy conversion out of a standard Fire Warrior (with Green Stuff capes and camo paint ). The "real" model almost looks like a standard Fire Warrior anyways, except for the shoulder pad, so except for some extra gubbins on the gun to make it look like a networked markerligt carbine instead of a regular carbine (which could even be done just with painting it differently) you should be able to make a WYSIWYG Pathfinder out of plastic (unless of course you want Rail Rifles on them, but TO has a couple of conversion guides for those as well).

As far as bodyguard/Monat goes, I usually run a Monat Commandar with the Aurora config (CIB+Plasma Rifle), althoug I sometimes give him the AFP just for kicks. And a shield gen, drone or two and stims, then he's good to go. Can quickly run up in price though but often worth it in my experience.

When I started out I got 2xBattle Forces and a Commander box and it was a great start, especially after I used some of the extra Fire Warriors as Path Finders. With 2xSky Ray (of course fielded as Hammerheads ) and a single box of Chaos Warhounds I would say you could play a competitive army at 1000 points and still have room to field different units every time.

Cheers

- Gorlak

Ok numbers and unit types just keept dancing throu my head so I couldent sleep.
Working off the buying 2 army deals and as little else as possible I came up with this list.

HQ
Shas'el 127 points
Plasma rifel, Missile pod, Targeting array, Hard-wierd multitracker and 2 shield drones

2 shas'vre bodygaurds 117 points
Plasma rifel, Missile pod, Targeting array, Hard-wierd multitracker

(might go fusion blaster instead of missiles, cost the same, up to him if he wants range or power)

Elites
6 Stealth suits 182 points
2 fusion blasters

Troops
10 kroots 100 points
5 hounds

11 Fire warriors 197 points
Devilfish, multitracker, disruption pod

10 Fire warriors 100 points
Will borrow Pathfinders devil fish

Fast
6 Pathfinders 167 points
Devil fish, multitracker, disruption pod

Comes to exactly 1000 points

Some things that worry me right of the batt is that he might lack the firepower to deal with my ork's, a Hammer head with Railgun would have been nice for that. But I do belive he will have enough fire power for the marine armies he will be facing. Also he should be pretty mobile with this. He can also vary the list with more kroots or drones.
2 Army deals, a comander and 6 pathfinders should be a good base to start from. As we expend ouer lists all he should need is more robots and railguns.
Coments are more then welcome.

Fiercegoldfish
Forgot that the markerlights were heavy, my bad.

Gorlak
I'll pass on the message that being able to reequip the crissis suits might be a good idea. Also this is the first time I have ever run in to the term Monat. Sadly he's not much of a converter, or painter for that matter. When I think of it the only redeming thing about him is that he is funny when drunk, lucky for him he is that often enough ^^

Also a little question popped up in my head, I have read some pepole saying that stealth suits are good with marker lights because they can move and still use them. But I couldent find that they had the relentless rule or any other special rule that alowed this. I also checked the tau faq and found nothing. Am I just blind or using a outdated book or some thing similar?

And once again thanks for the help pepole, really helps out us new guys to hear the voices of experiance

Fiercegoldfish wrote:
Ick.

First off, I love my tau. Excellent choice IMO. TauOnline.org is my main form, too, and I would very highly recommend that.

On the list above, I don't like it myself. Piranhas are bigger point sinks to me than most everything else in the tau armory. You get a burst cannon and two carbines... for sixty points. a hammerhead is almost the same points as two piranhas yet has two burst cannons (the main armory of the piranhas) AND the almighty railgun. It is a bit slower than the piranha but so what. And as for anti-tank, the railgun is one of the best if not the best antitank guns in the game, not to mention that your list there has 7 crisis suits to get that taken care of. Also the list lacks any devilfish, severly limiting you. Tau are not the best shooting army, but they do have some of the best mobile firepower. No fish means no mobility.

You take burst cannons on your piranhas? Seriously, at least read the list before making fun of it (Yes there is a burst cannon in that list, 1. And you can easily drop 1 kroot hound to upgrade it to a fusion blaster.) Fusion blasters are actually better than railguns at taking out tanks. Also as I said before Piranhas block movement, have more/better shots than a hammerhead and are cheaper fully kitted. 145 vs 175ish.

Fiercegoldfish wrote:

Your list is also missing a pathfinder squad, which for most tau players is a must for any game over 500 points.

You already need to spend about 500 on movement blocking (needed in every tau list), now you want to drop another 200 on markerlights??? What do you shoot with?

Fiercegoldfish wrote:
And just 6 fire warriors? come on. Your really going to rely on your kroot for everything? What happens when you play a game with no forests or woods? then your going to see a big loss in their use. I love kroot and understand their uses both with and without woods/forests, but still, you need a decent base of FW's. Granted mayby not a full 24 of them but more than 6. As for choices on kroot hounds- http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,93247.0.html.

Firewarriors are terrible, please stop recommending them and tricking people into wasting money on them. I could go over all the reasons why, but seriously a simple search of this forum will tell you why. (actually we don't even have any forest terrain in our house, so when we go to the gaming store and I get forests its all just a bonus, I never think of woods as required)

Fiercegoldfish wrote:
As for stealth suits being crappy, don't count em out just yet. It is all about how you use them and your army. Some people swear by them, others hate em. Use them correctly and they are devastating. use them incorrectly and they are a huge point sink. It's up to your friends play style and list.

Repeat after me, Tau want as many fireknives as possible in every list they build. Never take anything else. As to your point: Burst cannons are devastating? Really? 3 str 5 shots are devastating?


You need to buy the dual purpose things first. You don't need massive firepower at 1000 points. 1 hammerhead isn't going to do crap, you can't afford enough threats at this points level to even slightly protect it. 1 BS 4 shot is your anti tank at 1000 points? Good luck.

Broadsides and Hammerheads are better at higher point levels when you can start to take multiples and you need all the extra anti tank firepower. At this level they are just a waste. They will draw a ton of fire and get blown out of the water early.

There is a reason people think tau are bad. Its because they want it to still be 4th ed where they could take 60 firewarriors and be competitive. Sorry, but that doesn't work anymore.

rickie82 wrote:Ok numbers and unit types just keept dancing throu my head so I couldent sleep.
Working off the buying 2 army deals and as little else as possible I came up with this list.

HQ
Shas'el 127 points
Plasma rifel, Missile pod, Targeting array, Hard-wierd multitracker and 2 shield drones

2 shas'vre bodygaurds 117 points
Plasma rifel, Missile pod, Targeting array, Hard-wierd multitracker

(might go fusion blaster instead of missiles, cost the same, up to him if he wants range or power)

Elites
6 Stealth suits 182 points
2 fusion blasters

Troops
10 kroots 100 points
5 hounds

11 Fire warriors 197 points
Devilfish, multitracker, disruption pod

10 Fire warriors 100 points
Will borrow Pathfinders devil fish

Fast
6 Pathfinders 167 points
Devil fish, multitracker, disruption pod

Comes to exactly 1000 points

Some things that worry me right of the batt is that he might lack the firepower to deal with my ork's, a Hammer head with Railgun would have been nice for that. But I do belive he will have enough fire power for the marine armies he will be facing. Also he should be pretty mobile with this. He can also vary the list with more kroots or drones.
2 Army deals, a comander and 6 pathfinders should be a good base to start from. As we expend ouer lists all he should need is more robots and railguns.
Coments are more then welcome.

Fiercegoldfish
Forgot that the markerlights were heavy, my bad.

Gorlak
I'll pass on the message that being able to reequip the crissis suits might be a good idea. Also this is the first time I have ever run in to the term Monat. Sadly he's not much of a converter, or painter for that matter. When I think of it the only redeming thing about him is that he is funny when drunk, lucky for him he is that often enough ^^

Also a little question popped up in my head, I have read some pepole saying that stealth suits are good with marker lights because they can move and still use them. But I couldent find that they had the relentless rule or any other special rule that alowed this. I also checked the tau faq and found nothing. Am I just blind or using a outdated book or some thing similar?

And once again thanks for the help pepole, really helps out us new guys to hear the voices of experiance

Looks like a pretty strong list. I would change a few things normally but seeing as you want to use the army box this looks pretty good for what you've got. The lack of any railguns is a little worrying, as you would be left with just 2 stealth suits with FB to really kill off tanks (though in a pinch the missile pods could take out a tank) but this still seems very usable as long as you are able to deepstrike your suits in to a place where you can take out a tank (and thanks to the pathfinder fish this is easier). You've got the disruption pods and multitrackers on everything so no complaints there. Also liking the hounds included in the kroot squad. However, I would suggest adding just one more FW to that squad of 10. I try to never have a squad with an even number of models. at 10 it takes 5 deaths to bring the unit to half strength while at 11 it takes 6. If you need to shave a few points for that you could consider taking off the multitrackers on the fish leaving you with just enough for 1 more FW. it may be worth it to lose a few burst cannon shots for a lower chance of losing the squad. That's up to you though.

On the stealth markerlights: your looking in the right dex The old one had no stealth suits (just checked it). As for the rule itself, I'm not sure there. Here is what I found...
-In the 5th ed rules it says figures with jetpacks are relentless
-In the tau codex it says that the XV8 and XV88 suit wearers may not fire heavy weapons and move
-Stealth suit isneither of these and it mentions nothing of heavy weapons for their suit, thus leading me to beleive that they would be relentless (though stealth suits themselves cant carry heavy weapons anyways so it wouldn't matter)
-Marker Drones are not said in the rules to be jump infantry. Since the drone itself fires the markerlight and not the stealth suit I would assume it would not get relentless

So, from this I would say no, they cannot move and fire, though we may see someone come along and correct me.


Cpt:
-Yes I take burst cannons on my piranhas. I would rather kill something from afar with a railgun than zoom up to within 6 inches of it. I use piranhas to get behind a tank far away from it and then launch a seeker at the tank, hitting rear armor. Then I bring the piranha back to somewhere it's needed. Also where are you getting 175 pt? I run em at 155 fully kitted. They dont have more or better shots either. Hammerhead gets 6 burst cannon shots and the railgun. 2 piranhas get 6 burst cannon shots and 4 TL carbines. So the differnce is 4 TL carbines vs. a railgun (submunition or solid).
-Why have the pathfinders? I like to make sure my shots hit and opponent doesn't get a cover save. That's worth a little under 200 points. Plus you can then use the fish for your...
-Firewarriors. 2 str 5 ap 5 shots each when used with a fish? That's nothing to scoff at. I love kroot but they need support from FW's
-yes they are when you get to drop em in behind whatever you want and give them such high survivability.
-A hammerhead will do a good bit at 1k points. will quickly take out whatever vehicles they field and rip swarms apart with it's large blast. Especially dangeroues when the markerlights make it hit on 2+

So, 12 firewarriors in rapid fire range, is 24 str 5 shots
12 hit, 8 wound, 2 dead marines.

So 200+ pts spent on the firewarriors + transport to get them in range is worth killing 2 marines?

Thanks for the feedback Fiercegoldfish. He will most likley not face any tanks now as we are starting out, just some transports and walkers. And he should be able to deal with them. I'll keep the 11 fire warriors thing in mind. Also would be fun to hear what changes you would have made. I mean this is still just a proposal list for him, my take on things. He is usually smart enough to listen to me (he better be or else).

On the stealth suit thingie, I actually figured it out just before returning here, was planing on editing my post ^^
The thing is that the drones count as the same unit type as the unit they are atached to. Being atached to stealth suits makes them in to jet packers and thus get the relentles rule.

rickie82 wrote:Thanks for the feedback Fiercegoldfish. He will most likley not face any tanks now as we are starting out, just some transports and walkers. And he should be able to deal with them. I'll keep the 11 fire warriors thing in mind. Also would be fun to hear what changes you would have made. I mean this is still just a proposal list for him, my take on things. He is usually smart enough to listen to me (he better be or else).

On the stealth suit thingie, I actually figured it out just before returning here, was planing on editing my post ^^
The thing is that the drones count as the same unit type as the unit they are atached to. Being atached to stealth suits makes them in to jet packers and thus get the relentles rule.

Good call on the suits

For changes, I would just make some room for a hammerhead. I like fielding the strongest long range gun It is one of the Tau's greatest assets IMO. Even if it doesn't fight any real tanks I want to be able to reliably destroy transports quickly; I wouldn't want to allow say a squad of termies to make it to my lines. Then once I get rid of their vehicles I can just shoot submunitions anywhere that it's needed.

Cpt: They are much better objective holders than kroot if the kroot aren't in woods though, and with only troops being scoring that's very important.

As much as I realize that Fire Warriors are unlikely to kill huge numbers of MEQs at rapid fire range, I prefer them. Why? Because it's a 30 inch range gun. Won't kill things at 12" reliably? Don't get them in 12". Plop them in cover behind your Crisis Suits/Stealth Suits/Piranhas and such, and gunline them. And if you do play objectives frequently enough, throw one or two squads into Devilfish and jet them around the battlefield. Throw some upgrades on the fish, and it's survivable enough to take some decent hits. Don't use Fire Warriors as your main source of damage; with BS3 and AP5 weaponry, they just won't do well against anything but Orks and Guard out of cover.

Personally, I rarely run more than 24 Fire Warriors. The rest of my points go into making an effective JSJ army that chooses to rip enemies off of objectives, rather than take and hold them. Hold one or two in your own deployment zone, and then stop the enemy from getting to them with Battlesuits. It's harder to do with deep strike heavy armies (5e Nids for example) but it's still a viable style of play.

And as for Kroot, I still don't think they're even remotely close to being worth taking. Low toughness, no save whatsoever, and they're only ever going to survive if they can find some woods to hide in, which I never see at my FLGS. Not to mention they have a complete lack of any Assault weaponry or some way to get into Assault quickly and safely. The only way to get the charge with them is if you infiltrate near a static squad of HWTs or something similar, and then give them something else to shoot for the turn. Honestly, the true strength of Tau does not lie with their troops choices; you'll find their powerhouse units in the Elites and Heavy Support slots.

(And yes, I know that that's the point of Elite and Heavy slots. But other armies can run semi-decent lists using three or four Troops slot choices)

CptZach wrote:So, 12 firewarriors in rapid fire range, is 24 str 5 shots
12 hit, 8 wound, 2 dead marines.

So 200+ pts spent on the firewarriors + transport to get them in range is worth killing 2 marines?

Your math is off unless you equip your Shas'Ui with every single piece of infantry wargear they wont hit 200+ points (unless you factor in the tranpsort, but that should also kill Marines, not just sit there)... Like other people have said: no need to use the Fire Warriors poorly. They have many uses besides sucking against marines at 12'' range...

On the stealth markerlights: your looking in the right dex The old one had no stealth suits (just checked it). As for the rule itself, I'm not sure there. Here is what I found...
-In the 5th ed rules it says figures with jetpacks are relentless
-In the tau codex it says that the XV8 and XV88 suit wearers may not fire heavy weapons and move
-Stealth suit isneither of these and it mentions nothing of heavy weapons for their suit, thus leading me to beleive that they would be relentless (though stealth suits themselves cant carry heavy weapons anyways so it wouldn't matter)
-Marker Drones are not said in the rules to be jump infantry. Since the drone itself fires the markerlight and not the stealth suit I would assume it would not get relentless

So, from this I would say no, they cannot move and fire, though we may see someone come along and correct me.

Drones are the same type as their controllers. So in the hands of a Fire Warrior squad they are "Infantry" but with Jetpack troops (like Stealth Suits) they are "Jump Infantry (Jetpack)" and therefore gets relentless. It's probably the best way to get a JSJ (jump shoot jump) Markerlight squad. It's just to ineffective on Crisis Suits (they are better used in other functions).

Also this is the first time I have ever run in to the term Monat. Sadly he's not much of a converter, or painter for that matter. When I think of it the only redeming thing about him is that he is funny when drunk, lucky for him he is that often enough ^^

Monat means "Single suit without drones". And your mate sounds great! magnetization is pure cake, so he should have no problem doing it, so even if you buy the Pathfinders in metal I really think you should convince him to magnetize the suits. Cannot emphasize how much I appreciate I did it.

2 Army deals, a comander and 6 pathfinders should be a good base to start from. As we expend ouer lists all he should need is more robots and railguns.
Coments are more then welcome.

Sounds like a solid plan mate


Cheers,

- Gorlak

The Battleforce is good value and provides everything you need for a minimum size legal army (HQ, 1+ FW squad, and Kroot for the second Troops unit.)

The Stealthsuits aren't good use in the current game, and we are waiting for an updated codex to revise a lot of rules and costs to improve various units. You could proxy the Stealth suits for Crisis suits.

That said, a second Battleforce is a good buy on VFM grounds and gives you about as many Fire Warriors as you are likely to need. Stealthsuits will definitely make a comeback and you will have a squad of six available.

The next thing to buy is a tank. The Skyray kit is the best because it includes all the parts needed to make Skyray, a Hammerhead, or Devilfish. If you have good modelling skills, it is easy to build the kit so you can swap the weapons and turrets around and turn it into three or even four different vehicles.

More Crisis suits and a couple of Broadsides for anti-tank are good buys.

So, just out of curiosity, what do you guys do to prevent people from hitting your lines?

You all claim kroot and piranhas are terrible. Ok, so what happens when your opponents assault army gets into your gunline?

Or does your 1 BS4 anti tank weapon stop all their transports?

Not using kroot and piranhas is a good way to get your ass kicked playing tau.

And burst cannons on piranhas? /facepalm

Do not believe the lies, in front of every successful living Fire Warrior is a squad of dead Kroot...for the greater good of course.

Infiltrate to forward positions, harass and sandbag, die gloriously for the blue forehead gash. A Kroot could ask for no less!

Don't let your friend be put off by everyone saying they are uncompetitive but they really aren't that bad. They are also really fun to play (well IMO).

Everyone complains about fire warriors but add two marker drones and you have a chance of each FW having BS 5. Bs5 S5 range 30 is pretty good. Stick them in a fish with smart missiles and disrpution pods and they are hard to kill and can still do some damage even if they aren't in Los.

Pathfinders are also great. They are cheap to buy (it's easy to convert some FW) and for 12pts you get one of the best support units in the game. Even better we don't have very much competition for fast attack so they are easy to include.

Never field Etheral they actualy make it easier to loose. Vespid are great against marines. Strength 5 Ap3 assault 1, yes please. They are bad against other armies but they eat Meqs.

Try to include lots of crisis suits, Hammerheads, Broadsides (i find them a bit slow but other people love them), path finders and Pirahnas with fusion blasters and disruption pods.

Give all vehicles distruption pods. Idealy they enemy will always be more than 12 away so being permantly an obscured target really increase survivability.

CptZach-

You don't need to stop people hitting your lines because in my experience Tau should really have a "line". We move faster than most armies and shoot further. They come at you and you move out of the way. Gun line Tau don't work great because thats ignoring one of the best features of the army. Against mechanised armies we have enough guns to wreck their trasnports and we can run rings round footslogging armies.

CptZach wrote:So, just out of curiosity, what do you guys do to prevent people from hitting your lines?

You all claim kroot and piranhas are terrible. Ok, so what happens when your opponents assault army gets into your gunline?

Or does your 1 BS4 anti tank weapon stop all their transports?

Not using kroot and piranhas is a good way to get your ass kicked playing tau.

And burst cannons on piranhas? /facepalm

First off, I never said I didn't like Kroot. In fact I think they are one of the biggest tactical advantages we have. 10+10 Hounds is a fearsome CC squad and just 10 Kroot make for both some nice screening and some nice infiltrating possibilities.

Secondly, the fact that one says "Kroot and Piranha aren't good units" does not equal that they just place 72 FWs and call it a day. 2xSmartfishes either loaded up with FWs or minimized for objective capturing is a fearsome sight to behold, and Crisis Suits make any list pop. Can't hate 2xstr7 and a couple of plasma shots for around 60 points. Takes out Rhinos and MCs with relative ease while staying away from the opponent with JSJ.

Tau has a lot of tricks up their sleeve if you don't let yourself get shoehorned into thinking you play Imperial Guard. Don't just let your tanks sit there and shoot, we need to be constantly moving making small adjustments and always be thinking about where we want to be on the board when turn 5 comes. Tau can, in my experience, be somewhat competitive. Sure, we won't fare so well against Chimera-Vendetta spams and double lash builds, but Tau definitely aren't a pushover-army and if fielded correctly can throw a monkey-wrench into any opponents cleverly crafted plan.

Just my 2 cents, but have perhaps drifted away from being advice to a new player if you can take anything from this, it shoud be: "Just start out with Tau, they are still super fun!"

Cheers,

Gorlak

If your only somewhat competitive with your Tau, perhaps your playing them wrong?

Just a thought.

Especially since a decent amount of people, me included, who go by the advice I posted, are very competitive with them.

4M2A wrote:
You don't need to stop people hitting your lines because in my experience Tau should really have a "line". We move faster than most armies and shoot further. They come at you and you move out of the way. Gun line Tau don't work great because thats ignoring one of the best features of the army. Against mechanised armies we have enough guns to wreck their trasnports and we can run rings round footslogging armies.

Seconded

Fiercegoldfish wrote:

4M2A wrote:
You don't need to stop people hitting your lines because in my experience Tau should really have a "line". We move faster than most armies and shoot further. They come at you and you move out of the way. Gun line Tau don't work great because thats ignoring one of the best features of the army. Against mechanised armies we have enough guns to wreck their trasnports and we can run rings round footslogging armies.

Seconded

Uh, you realize any full mechanized force is going to be faster than Tau right?

I guess if your opponent has 1 transport and they are inclined to chase you around in a circle, then this works...

I don't think you understand how durable vehicles are. They don't take 1 str 7 hit and die. Heck Railguns don't even pop them that reliably. A railgun has less than a 25% chance of stopping a rhino in cover. That's for a Rhino, one of the easier vehicles to wreck, now what happens when your opponent brings chimera's, wave serpents and landraiders? And your suggesting using 1 railgun and a couple missile pods as your anti tank at 1000 points? Good luck with that.

CptZach wrote:

Fiercegoldfish wrote:

4M2A wrote:
You don't need to stop people hitting your lines because in my experience Tau should really have a "line". We move faster than most armies and shoot further. They come at you and you move out of the way. Gun line Tau don't work great because thats ignoring one of the best features of the army. Against mechanised armies we have enough guns to wreck their trasnports and we can run rings round footslogging armies.

Seconded

Uh, you realize any full mechanized force is going to be faster than Tau right?

I guess if your opponent has 1 transport and they are inclined to chase you around in a circle, then this works...

I don't think you understand how durable vehicles are. They don't take 1 str 7 hit and die. Heck Railguns don't even pop them that reliably. A railgun has less than a 25% chance of stopping a rhino in cover. That's for a Rhino, one of the easier vehicles to wreck, now what happens when your opponent brings chimera's, wave serpents and landraiders? And your suggesting using 1 railgun and a couple missile pods as your anti tank at 1000 points? Good luck with that.

My list includes a hammerhead and three fusion blasters. hit the tank in question with some markerlights and your chances increase dramatically, too, by denying any coversave. hit it with four markerlights and you can hit on 2s, deny a cover save, and then penetrate with (vs a rhino) 2s again. then you've got the plus 1 modifier for ap 1... that's looking like a very reliable tank/transport killer. vs a land raider its the same just with penetrating at 5 up.

Any Tau player worth his salt utilizes mobility and speed. Sitting there with a gunline is something you wont see much vs anything but orks.

Fiercegoldfish wrote:
My list includes a hammerhead and three fusion blasters. hit the tank in question with some markerlights and your chances increase dramatically, too, by denying any coversave. hit it with four markerlights and you can hit on 2s, deny a cover save, and then penetrate with (vs a rhino) 2s again. then you've got the plus 1 modifier for ap 1... that's looking like a very reliable tank/transport killer. vs a land raider its the same just with penetrating at 5 up.

Any Tau player worth his salt utilizes mobility and speed. Sitting there with a gunline is something you wont see much vs anything but orks.

This goldfish is not only fierce, but also smart.

I don't think you understand how durable vehicles are. They don't take 1 str 7 hit and die. Heck Railguns don't even pop them that reliably. A railgun has less than a 25% chance of stopping a rhino in cover. That's for a Rhino, one of the easier vehicles to wreck, now what happens when your opponent brings chimera's, wave serpents and landraiders? And your suggesting using 1 railgun and a couple missile pods as your anti tank at 1000 points? Good luck with that.

I don't know how you manage to pull of 1 str 7 hit with a Tau army. With Deathrains you will have enough long range mobile firepower to handle even the most spammy of mechanized forces. Actually Tau is one of the armys that have handled the shift to Mech with much more grace than some of the Codex' from it's time (old Nids, I'm looking at you). And like Fiercegoldfish said, use your markerlights wisely. If your opponent manages to hide every rhino in cover, then he either has very few left or isn't ramming them all towards you, so with clever use of Pathfinders there shouldn't be a problem.

If your only somewhat competitive with your Tau, perhaps your playing them wrong?

Just a thought.

Especially since a decent amount of people, me included, who go by the advice I posted, are very competitive with them.

Ah yes. The bragging game. Perhaps he should just try out different styles and see what he liked instead of being shoehorned by some random guy into a Piranha-spam build?

Just a thought.

Especially since I have never lost a game with Tau ever in my 20 years of playing them and GW called me up and said I was the best Tau player ever (in the history of ever in fact), so he should listen to my advice.

Cheers,

Gorlak

Couple things:

Rhinos have smoke, so yes, they can all be in cover
Pathfinders + devilfish + hammerhead = around 300+ pts
And you can wreck 1 35 pt rhino a turn (not a very good return)
TL MP suits might be good against rhinos but past that they aren't all that useful.