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Here's a small problem i ran into yesterday.
I was playing with my nids against the space goths (Dark Eldar) and my tyranid prime assaulted Talos. And when Talos was wounded, i asked DE player to roll for Ld to see if Talos survives the instant death effect. But Talos doesn't have Ld value.
But since Talos isn't immune to instant death and is not a vehicle does that just mean it will always fail it's Ld checks?

Thunder555 wrote:Here's a small problem i ran into yesterday.
I was playing with my nids against the space goths (Dark Eldar) and my tyranid prime assaulted Talos. And when Talos was wounded, i asked DE player to roll for Ld to see if Talos survives the instant death effect. But Talos doesn't have Ld value.
But since Talos isn't immune to instant death and is not a vehicle does that just mean it will always fail it's Ld checks?

It does have a Ld value, a leadership 0 (page 7 BRB, "-" is equal to 0).

Combined with page 8 of the BRB which states "Of course, if a model has to take a test for one of its characteristics with a value of 0, it automatically fails." the answer is pretty clear.

It auto passes all "Morale tests" (as per it's special rule) but automatically fails all "Leadership tests". Mean I know, but them's the breaks.

And before someone brings it up (and I know someone will), they do not get to try and pass on a double 1, that only applies to Morale Checks, not Leadership tests.

This is why you take Ravagers btw.

Yep, Talos is autokilled by a bonesword once you wound it - horrible but true.

3 Ravagers is a minimum in any 1500+ list anyway, isnt it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, Talos is autokilled by a bonesword once you wound it - horrible but true.

3 Ravagers is a minimum in any 1500+ list anyway, isnt it?

3 Ravagers in ANY list. 500 points? 3 Ravagers. 750? 3 Ravagers. Only time you take less is if you are playing a 300 Point Game, because you can only afford 2

Unfortunately at 1750 points plus DE start to struggle....

Okies.. So Doom of Malan'tai would rape Talos too. =P

I was doing some math for a 750 point game, and if I remember right, it was going to look like this:

HQ: Haemonculus

Troop1: 5 warriors+dark lance in a raider with dark lance
Troop2: 5 warriors+dark lance in a raider with dark lance
Troop3: 5 warriors+dark lance in a raider with dark lance

Heavy1: Ravager + 3 Disintegrator
Heavy2: Ravager + 3 Disintegrator
Heavy3: Ravager + 3 Disintegrator

That's 6 dark lances and nine disintegrators in 750 points. Not sure how many vehicles will show up at that point level, but there's 6 lances for anti-tank, and 9 STR7 AP2 blast weapons per shooting phase to handle the infantry.

Thunder555 wrote:Okies.. So Doom of Malan'tai would rape Talos too. =P

Actually, it wouldn't. I don't think it even gets to test, it just automatically fails, so it never rolls, so never takes wounds because it never failed by a certain amount.

Unless it makes you take the test anyway, and you compare it to your Ld of 0. Actually, yeah, I think that's what happens

@nos: Not so, I seem to do well with DE (Both Wych Cult and Dark Lance Spam)at about 2k, though it's true that they are a lot stronger at 1500 than 2000

Gwar! wrote:
@nos: Not so, I seem to do well with DE (Both Wych Cult and Dark Lance Spam)at about 2k, though it's true that they are a lot stronger at 1500 than 2000

Agreed.

Nosferatu, I'd be happy to meet you on Vassal with 1750 points worth of DE against 1750 points of your choosing to demonstrate to you the meaning of pain.

I doubt we'd meet - and having met a DE GT finalist army (but increasted to 1750) damn I have no intention of playing DE again.

They make short work of my bezerkers, thats for sure. even lash spam fails against it, not that I play that myself - just seen dual lash taken apart by it.

Hmmm, could have sworn that GW once stated that the Talos was considered LD 10 against Mind War, but not finding it.

Gwar! wrote:

Thunder555 wrote:Okies.. So Doom of Malan'tai would rape Talos too. =P

Actually, it wouldn't. I don't think it even gets to test, it just automatically fails, so it never rolls, so never takes wounds because it never failed by a certain amount.

Unless it makes you take the test anyway, and you compare it to your Ld of 0. Actually, yeah, I think that's what happens

@nos: Not so, I seem to do well with DE (Both Wych Cult and Dark Lance Spam)at about 2k, though it's true that they are a lot stronger at 1500 than 2000

Hmmm, so here's some interesting points, the rules say that if you take a characteristic test against a stat which is 0 you automatically fail (not even the "1 is always pass" can save you)

It then goes on to say

"Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morake checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."

Which to me suggests that Leadership tests do not have the auto-fail clause (although the effect is the same, since you can't roll under 0) and also don't have the auto-pass on 1 clause (which is later introduced for morale checks specifically, but does not apply to standard leadership tests).

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, could have sworn that GW once stated that the Talos was considered LD 10 against Mind War, but not finding it.

I remember that too, i im thinking i got that information form there 1800 number ( werethey change there mind every five minutes)

StarGate wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, could have sworn that GW once stated that the Talos was considered LD 10 against Mind War, but not finding it.

I remember that too, i im thinking i got that information form there 1800 number ( werethey change there mind every five minutes)

I've never called it. It was in writing somewhere, just have to junt it down.

don_mondo wrote:

StarGate wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, could have sworn that GW once stated that the Talos was considered LD 10 against Mind War, but not finding it.

I remember that too, i im thinking i got that information form there 1800 number ( werethey change there mind every five minutes)

I've never called it. It was in writing somewhere, just have to junt it down.

I remember that too, I think it may have been in an older FAQ though. Perhaps an older DE or even Eldar FAQ may have had it.