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I need help with polishing my lists. I am going with a monster heavy theme and no magic casting. Just testing to see how important magic is.

500 pts

5x cold one knights = 135 with command and banner of cold blood = 190
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x shades w/ gw = 90
total = 500

1000 pts

master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond = 324
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
hydra = 175
total = 999 (look familiar Kirb?)

1500 pts

master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond = 324
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135 with champ and ring of hotek = 176
hydra = 175
total = 1491 (edited)

2000 pts

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, lance, pair of handbows, armor of eternal servitude, pendant of khaeleth = 561
master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond = 324
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135 with champ and ring of hotek = 176
hydra = 175
total = 1997

2500 pts

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, lance, pair of handbows, armor of eternal servitude, pendant of khaeleth = 561
master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond = 324
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135 with champ and ring of hotek = 176
hydra = 175
hydra = 175
total = 2427
Not sure what to do with the 73 points. 10 spearmen w/ shields and musician?

3000 pts

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, lance, pair of handbows, armor of eternal servitude, pendant of khaeleth = 561
master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond, and pair of handbows = 340
master - dark pegasus, full mundane, pair of handbows, crimson death, and ring of hotek = 206
master - cold one, full mundane, lance, crystal of midnight, and pair of handbows = 165
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135
hydra = 175
hydra = 175
total = 2757
243 left over? I was thinking the ASF 14 black guard for 231. I was also thinking about dropping the other masters and picking up the cauldron, but think it might get left behind the rest of the army and I would have to find other spots for the ring of hotek and crystal of midnight. Or I could stick with the theme and get another unit of cold one knights and bump my shades up to 8 men a piece.

Anyway, I know I have a very low model count, but I am hoping my mobility will offset that a little. Also I have no magic, but interested in how much that will matter. Once again I am putting all my eggs into the speed of the army and 4 terror causing monsters.

I could use some advice, please.

500 points: Drop the command on the Cold Ones and pick up 5x Harpies. That keeps you exactly at 500.

1000 points: Haha, looks incredibly familiar, even more than the 500. Be careful of casters in this one. Three dispel dice is a good start, but even the smallest of magic missiles butchers all of your little units. Also avoid pincushion fire with that Manticore and rip people to shreds with it.

1500 points: Drop two shades and the Master's Handbows, pick up four more Harpies for two units of 5. Total: 1491. Not necessary, but I like harpies.

I'll play with the rest later.

I like that 1500 pt suggestion. Don't I need the command so that I have a champion to be my general in the 500 pts list?

boogeyman wrote:Don't I need the command so that I have a champion to be my general in the 500 pts list?

That depends on rules you are running. Some people play 0-1 Heroes with no Commander required. Warbands requires a Commander. If you are playing Warbands, then I suggest you drop the musician and standard and pick up a trio of Harpies for harassment purposes.

I think the Seal of Ghrond and the Ring of Hotek are not going to save you in the magic phase against magic-heavy armies. A sorceress scroll-caddy could make all the difference.

True, but I would have to lose the dragon or manticore, if I wanted to put her in a list under 3k. Then at 3k I wonder how much she will even be able to do anyway, hopefully get me through turn number 1. Then there is the whole monster/anti-magic theme. I don't expect it to be too competitive, but I hope to have some fun running all over the table with a bunch of monsters.

Sorry for the bump. I updated my original lists. Just curious what you guys thought. I like the monster theme, but is it too much and can it be competitive in a friendly sort of way?

I personally am not a big fan of the Ring of Hotek on a single wound model. With all of the abilities to kill them it's not worth putting on a single wound model. I'll fire my "target any model" spells with 2 dice all day long. That, plus I'll send in any of my scrub units towards them and single out that guy just so I can kill the ring. We have a guy at my FLGS that puts the ring on his champion and it doesn't last long. Of course, the current DE book is so broken I'm sure you can make just about anything work!

My two coppers...

Orkimedes wrote:Of course, the current DE book is so broken I'm sure you can make just about anything work!

Waaaaah, the big mean scary T3 5+ Elves are ruining Warhammer with two magic items and a Hydra that should cost 25pts more.

Sorry, I really don't mean that in any way as a personal attack or trying to derail the thread, I just disagree strongly with Dark Elves being broken. Having nearly a whole book of viable units does not mean the book is broken; it means other books have more crappy units by comparison and are bitter about it. Broken means it ruins game balance, ignores all potential counters and is so severely underpriced that everything else by comparison is overwhelmed.

Back to business. The rest of what Orkimedes said is viable.

Orkimedes wrote:I personally am not a big fan of the Ring of Hotek on a single wound model. With all of the abilities to kill them it's not worth putting on a single wound model. I'll fire my "target any model" spells with 2 dice all day long.

This is a very valid point and in your monster lists you will typically have a hard time protecting it. Since that Champion has a 2+ armor save, a single Spell 1 from the Lore of Metal will knock him out instantly and with three dispel dice, there isn't much you can do about it. To that end, you can also do things like screen with harpies or go Wizard hunting with the rest of your army. That should be your focus from the start against any magic heavy list since many wizards aren't terribly difficult to kill. Even the ones with some protection (Slann, EotG Skink Priests, Chaos Wizards come to mind) have ways to get to them.

(Before I write this, let me just say that I'm going along with Kirbinator and not in any way attacking anyone, just going along with a sarcastic response.) I'm smiling while i'm typing this.

Ring of Hotek (severly underpriced, this should be at least 55 pt item thta way it can only be given to a lord level character), Reverse ward save item, (cant remember the name), 175 pt hydra, black guard that have every special rule except scout and stupidity, magic item that halves BS of unit shooting them, S7 throwing stars from an assassin that doesn't take up a character slot and instant kills chariots, level 2 wizard (hell, level 1) that can utterly destroy in their own magic phase with a 4+ spell that gives more power dice.

If these don't constitute "broken", even by kirbinators definition, then I guess I am wrong. The DE units are not the problem, it's the items that can be given to them. T3 5+ save elves aren't scary at all, just the items that help them.

The DE monster list is tough to play against and that's what will be seen at most tournaments. Give the DE monster list all the goodies and I, for one, go into the game playing for a draw. I know it's not an unbeatable army, but there has to be a reason this is one of the most played competitive armies out there, along with the other two (vc, demons)

*presses timer thats next to the chess table

you're up.

Personally I think the current DE book is perfect. Now we just need to get the other books up (or in the case of DoC, down) to this level.

Let's face it, even our 'bad' units are pretty hoss against the 'average' units of most other books. And out magic item list is full of great variety. Granted, some items are better than others (Banner of Hag Graef vs. Standard of Slaghter, Ring of Hotek and/or Pendant of Khaeleth vs... well, just about anything else in that section, Crimson Death vs. Web of Shadows, etc.) but there are dozens of perfectly viable hero builds, and even more lord builds!

If the Brets were half as flexible as DE, I'd be spending a lot more time painting them!

I agree with the DE book being awesome, as in everything can be used and you can do any build and still be competitve, and maybe there are a few items underpriced. But you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. It is a shame GW didn't make the rest of the books like this. Sorry, didn't mean to get OT

How about this for 3k

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, lance, pair of handbows, armor of eternal servitude, pendant of khaeleth = 561
master - manticore, full mundane, lance, seal of ghrond, and pair of handbows = 340
dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, HA, pair of handbows, crystal of midnight, ring of hotek, caledor's bane = 586
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135
hydra = 175
hydra = 175
total = 2988

I know it is stupid to put half your army in characters, but just figured what the hell.

The one thing I would do with you lord is give him a death piercer, find havinge a captain scarlet with a magic weapon makes all the difference in the world in some games.

I really like your last 3k list, mostly due to the double dragons and manticore.

In your 2k and 2500, I really question the use of the Ring of Hotek being on a CoK Champion. If you are playing WYSIWYG and your Champion is noticably different, people will see that and anyone who knows Dark Elves will know why out of an entire army there is one CoK Champion. Even if someone doesn't snipe him with low magic (a single Spell 1 from Metal will do the trick), five Knights aren't terribly difficult to get rid of or at least slow down to the point that the jucier bits of your army won't be protected.

Further, your list will be so spread out (it's fliers, fast cav, scouts and heavy cav) that the 12" bubble really won't do you much good.

The biggest magical threats I can see your list facing are Beast Cowers spam, which your Knights won't be close enough to your Monsters to stop, and magic missile spam. Neither of these really require many dice but will rip your Dark Riders, Shades, etc to bits.

What if my lord and hero builds were this instead?

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, armor of eternal servitude, seal of ghrond, caledor's bane = 569 ( thanks)
master - manticore, full mundane, deathpiercer, ring of hotek, and pair of handbows = 356
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135
hydra = 175
total = 1993 +7 musician for one of the dark rider units.

dreadlord - dragon, sdc, shield, armor of eternal servitude, seal of ghrond, caledor's bane = 569
master - manticore, full mundane, deathpiercer, ring of hotek, and pair of handbows = 356
assassin - rending stars, manbane, extra hand weapon = 151
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x dark riders w/ rxb = 110
5x harpies = 55
5x harpies = 55
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x shades w/ gw = 90
5x cold one knights = 135
5x cold one knights = 135
hydra = 175
hydra = 175
total = 2423 What should I do with the extra 77 points? I could switch a unit of shades for another unit of CoK's, +1 shade and 2 musicians for the riders?

I like the Ring on that Manticore much more than the CoK Champ. You can keep him just in range of things you want to protect and when you fly in to start eating things, any wizard within 12" has a big disadvantage on them. Armies like Skaven and Beasts, whose wizards don't have access to high mobility and are typically stuck with other units, will have a tough time getting out from under the bubble.

I'm not sure if you wouldn't be better served having the Pendant on your Dreadlord rather than the Seal, but three dice can reliably dispel some of the mid-range casting that two wouldn't. Having just Regen on him is probably enough for most situations since he's still remarkably annoying to kill until a head-taking Assassin jumps in there.

Also, I'm getting 569 as the total for your Dreadlord. The different in points is likely coming from the Shield and Cloak costing a few points extra on a Dreadlord than on a Master. This removed the Musician option from the first list, but still keeps you below 2k. I like this 2k list, though. It looks like just what you want in a monster-based, avoidance list.

For the 2500 I'd probably take two Manbane/Stars Assassins, but that's just me. It really wouldn't hurt your central core much to do it:

Dragon Lord: 529
Manticore Master (remove Handbows): 340
Manbane Stars Assassin: 145
M/S AHW Assassin: 151
3x5 Crossbow Riders: 3x110
3x5 Harpies: 3x55
2x5 GW Shades: 2x90
2x5 CoK: 2x135
2x Hydra: 2x175

Total: 2500 even

That's less of a constructive suggestion and more of a "it would be funny to do" kind of situation. It can actually be very, very useful for popping Chariots early in the game for armies like Beastmen and WoC who can bring very painful Chariots. Two sets of Shades/Asssassins also makes monster and war machine hunting a breeze.

You might have a tough time actually scouting two separate units of Shades depending on the terrain setups your group typically goes with. If you can do it, though, nobody likes high strength thrown weapons on them by turn 2 at the latest.

Yea I was thinking the manticore would be more of the wizard hunter. I was hoping regeneration would be enough at 2k, but was more worried about it at 2.5k.

Any suggestions on what to do with that 77 points in the 2.5k list? Thanks just read your edit. 2 assassins would be fun.

And thanks for all the help.