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OK, so I was reading through the rules when I came across this nugget from the section on Bikes. Apparently, Bikes can fire 1 gun for each rider on the bike. Well, I've run into problems before with my Ork Bikers, especially WazDakkaDakka who has every weapon you could ever want, but of course, can only fire ONE per turn. POOR.

So OK, let's see, if you take your standard biker, I guess you have the Dakkagun and a Slugga I think, so what if I just model on an extra Ork? Two on the banana seat and that instantly gives me the ability to shoot both - "just like the Space Marines who always like to ride together and shoot at the same time."

Of course, who cares about the Slugga? But if I give Wazdakka 2 sidecars, then I can fire the dakkacannon, his KUSTOM MEGA BLASTA, and sure, why not, the Slugga as well. And there's not even a model for this guy, and it even says his is the BIGGEST BADDEST BIKE, so I can really go crazy when converting this bike.

So many will think I'm just abusing the modeling aspect of the hobby to get a game advantage. I prefer to think of it as creative modeling that I should be rewarded for. But what do YOU think? Plus can I count that grot who is hanging off the back on a pole (Fixit, I guess) as another rider?

MORE ORKS ON BIKES EQUALS MORE DAKKA
Solorg

Solorg wrote:OK, so I was reading through the rules when I came across this nugget from the section on Bikes. Apparently, Bikes can fire 1 gun for each rider on the bike. Well, I've run into problems before with my Ork Bikers, especially WazDakkaDakka who has every weapon you could ever want, but of course, can only fire ONE per turn. POOR.

So OK, let's see, if you take your standard biker, I guess you have the Dakkagun and a Slugga I think, so what if I just model on an extra Ork? Two on the banana seat and that instantly gives me the ability to shoot both - "just like the Space Marines who always like to ride together and shoot at the same time."

Of course, who cares about the Slugga? But if I give Wazdakka 2 sidecars, then I can fire the dakkacannon, his KUSTOM MEGA BLASTA, and sure, why not, the Slugga as well. And there's not even a model for this guy, and it even says his is the BIGGEST BADDEST BIKE, so I can really go crazy.

So many will think I'm just abusing the modeling aspect of the hobby to get a game advantage. I prefer to think of it as creative modeling that I should be rewarded for. But what do YOU think? Plus can I count that grot who is hanging off the back on a pole (Fixit, I guess) as another rider?

MORE ORKS ON BIKES EQUALS MORE DAKKA
Solorg

No, because by the rules, using converted models is not allowed, so modeling extra riders means the model becomes illegal to use. You have to use Citadel Models, not "Converted Citadel Models". In any case, no-one, will let you do this, as it is what is commonly called "A Massive Dick Move".

/thumbs down to idea.

Model all you want, but you're only shooting one weapon at me unless the normal model has multiple riders.

Oh, one clarification please - converted citadel models are NOT allowed? Is that true?

I had a feeling some might be against this kind of idea, but you know, others might find it pretty cool. Especially if I used Looted Space Marine Bikes and mounted my Ork Bikers on them. Gotta do SOMETHING with all that extra seat space, after all. Why should White Scars have all the fun?

Solorg wrote:Oh, one clarification please - converted citadel models are NOT allowed? Is that true?

The rulebook states that the Term "Model" refers to Citadel Models. Converted models are no longer Citadel Models.

Solorg wrote:Oh, one clarification please - converted citadel models are NOT allowed? Is that true?

I had a feeling some might be against this kind of idea, but you know, others might find it pretty cool. Especially if I used Looted Space Marine Bikes and mounted my Ork Bikers on them. Gotta do SOMETHING with all that extra seat space, after all. Why should White Scars have all the fun?

Yes, you are free to model until your hearts content. The rule for GW tournies is that 50% of a converted model must be a citadel/forgeworld model. As far as adding more riders to the bike, you simply cannot do so rules wise. You can model it and make it look cool, but if the model does not exist rules wise, then it does nothing for you except maybe make a cool looking figure.

padixon wrote:The rule for GW tournies is that 50% of a converted model must be a citadel/forgeworld model.

And why would this house rule have any effect on what the rules actually say, which is what is being discussed here?

The rules give no provisions for using converted models.

The rules also do not tell you explicitly how many riders belong on each biker model.

You *Could* do this if you wanted to, then when your opponent complains about it, refuse to allow him to use any of his converted models so that you are both following the same rules.

At this point you have become TFG, and wont get very many games in at that location/with that player.

Do it if you want to alienate people, dont do it if you like playing Warhammer 40,000 with other people.

I am confused now, as I thought that it was okay to have conversions in game play.
Am sure I saw a GW download that was for creating a gaming profile for such models?

If you stick riders on the back od a bike and expect to get extra dakka for the same amount of bucks, then that clearly is taking the Michael.
But if the bike/extra rider has an ammended cost then surely that should be okay imho

From an historical point of view, I once worked with a chap who was a dispatch rider in WW2
He had to learn to fire his pistol left handed - oo-err missus- because of his right hand being on the controls.

I assumed fast attack units were mobile while firing?

Gwar! wrote:

padixon wrote:The rule for GW tournies is that 50% of a converted model must be a citadel/forgeworld model.

And why would this house rule have any effect on what the rules actually say, which is what is being discussed here?

seriously?

the "rule"(and its NOT a rule) just says citadel miniatures used to play the game are referred to as "models". It does NOT say "only" citadel miniatures "un-modified" are to be allowed to play.

You are completely off your rocker if you actually believe what you type.

padixon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

padixon wrote:The rule for GW tournies is that 50% of a converted model must be a citadel/forgeworld model.

And why would this house rule have any effect on what the rules actually say, which is what is being discussed here?

seriously?

the "rule"(and its NOT a rule) just says citadel miniatures used to play the game are referred to as "models". It does NOT say "only" citadel miniatures "un-modified" are to be allowed to play.

You are completely off your rocker if you actually believe what you type.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow."

Something that has been converted is no longer a "Citadel Miniature", thus no Rules for using it exist, as all rules refer to "Models", which are "Citadel Miniatures".

While I seriously doubt that most players (except Gwar! maybe ) would not have a problem with you modeling extra riders on your bikes for aesthetic purposes, claiming that they may now fire extra weapons is modeling for advantage, which is a DICK move. The only reward you need for good modeling is pride and the admiration of your peers. I mean, honestly, do you suck that badly that you need to cheat?

This seems like the sort of thing that needs to be met with equal force. Like say, A Battlewagon with a 6' wide Deffrolla. Or a trio of customized Demolishers or vindicators with 3' barrels. Oh, or the ever popular stealth suit team which are simply empty bases. Or, for a bit more of a RAW exploit, label your bases 4+ cover. Periscopes on your Lascannon teams so that they can shoot over walls would be totally ok. Or put your Lascannon armed Vendetta on a customized 3 foot tall base, so that it can shoot people without being shot. Put all your Necrons in the oh so fluffy legless belly crawl so that they can get full cover from anything. Use Epic Landraiders, because they are Citadel models. Then disembark full sized squads from them.

Modelling for advantage has limits. It can be bent, it can be stretched, but this is just blatant abuse.

Nice...2 man Scout bikers...they can shoot the shot gun and the TL bolters.
... ...
But yea... douchebaggery there.

Nobody thinks it is super awesome that I drop MOAR Orks on the bike and get extra shots?

Re: Converted Models not being allowed, well, if Citadel models are allowed, let's say I get the box o' bikes. It has about a million bits in there, so there are about 700 ways I can make the model, and then, surely all of them are legal.

But the moment I take some bits out of another box, it is suddenly illegal (such as grabbing a sidecar from the Space Marine Biker Box, or what have you).

Anyway, I am sure conversions are fine. Just saying that if my conversion *happens* to have a few extra Orks sitting on the seat, well, the rules seem to insist that I take the extra shots. I can see how adding more weapons to the bike (other than those listed in the Codex Profile) would be definitely illegal and so wrong, but you know, why not add a few more riders? After all, if Space Marines can do it, why not Orks?

Orks never learned to share when they were little mushrooms. They routinely cause each other to wreck in their haste to get to the front lines.

I agree about conversions and would like clarification on the citadel ruling
so for instance people would object to an Avatar of War figure in a game of WHFB?

surely it is okay to add figures to a bike IF the points cost and model stats are ammended in agreement with the opponent?
Again, would be grateful if someone would be kind enough to repspond please.

That is a house rule/prosposed rule and will need opponent consent Chibi Bodge-Battle.

Consensus seems to be that you can't get extra shots by adding an extra rider/s to your Ork Bike. Possibly you can add them, but aren't allowed to fire a bike's multiple weapons.

Was that so hard .

Sanctjud wrote:That is a house rule/prosposed rule and will need opponent consent Chibi Bodge-Battle.

Would that be for the first or second question - or both please Sanctjud?

Sanctjud wrote:Was that so hard .

You know, more Dakka can tempt even an honest Ork...

WAAAGGHHH!
Solorg

The issue with conversions is that nothing in the rulebook gives you permission to use converted models.

You need to be explictly allowed to do something in order for it to be valid.

No one bothers to enforce the fact that conversions are not permitted because its rediculous. I think we can all agree that not being able to use our beautifully converted minis would be a shame.

Thats why Tournament Organizers are practically required to set limits on how far the participants can take conversions. Otherwise, as per the rules, no one could use any models that have been even slightly converted.

GW tournaments dont really care how much of an advantage you model, as long as its 50% or more GW parts, Independant GTs have their own specific requirements, and your FLGS probly sets it on a case-by-case basis because its a smaller event that is easier to handle.


In a regular game we assume using conversions is fine, and thats an OK assumption 99.999% of the time, untill you run into the guy with

A Battlewagon with a 6' wide Deffrolla. Or a trio of customized Demolishers or vindicators with 3' barrels. Oh, or the ever popular stealth suit team which are simply empty bases. Or, for a bit more of a RAW exploit, label your bases 4+ cover. Periscopes on your Lascannon teams so that they can shoot over walls would be totally ok. Or put your Lascannon armed Vendetta on a customized 3 foot tall base, so that it can shoot people without being shot. Put all your Necrons in the oh so fluffy legless belly crawl so that they can get full cover from anything. Use Epic Landraiders, because they are Citadel models. Then disembark full sized squads from them.

or bikers with more than the normal number of riders on them.

Some entries in the Dex, though, have no model. In other words, conversion is the only option. Are all such models disallowed according to the RAW?

Solorg wrote:Some entries in the Dex, though, have no model. In other words, conversion is the only option. Are all such models disallowed according to the RAW?

yep.

Demogerg wrote:

Solorg wrote:Some entries in the Dex, though, have no model. In other words, conversion is the only option. Are all such models disallowed according to the RAW?

yep.

Wow. Demogerg, you are one hard core dude.

Solorg wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Solorg wrote:Some entries in the Dex, though, have no model. In other words, conversion is the only option. Are all such models disallowed according to the RAW?

yep.

Wow. Demogerg, you are one hard core dude.

So am I.

Solorg wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Solorg wrote:Some entries in the Dex, though, have no model. In other words, conversion is the only option. Are all such models disallowed according to the RAW?

yep.

Wow. Demogerg, you are one hard core dude.

???
I am just giving the literal interpretation of the rules.

I have multiple armies composed of nothing but heavily converted models, and I LOVE facing cool converted minis.

trying to play by pure RAW is just a headache exercise. Gwar! doesnt even play by 100% RAW.

As a minor example, Arial is OOP, but the Wood Elves codex provides stats and magic available to the character.
I therefore assumed that my projected scratchbuild would be okay, but seems not.

Will make her any way as a very small gesture of defiance against Mammon.
and then scratchbuild a Dwarf Gyrocopter

What about terrain- is a homemade tree banned fron tourneys too?

Chibi, being 100% legal and tournament legal are very different things. Generally speaking, if you are 50% GW miniature and not based on another model, you'll be fine for tournament play. Gwar is generally absolutely correct about the rules- but this game is rarely played strictly by the rules.