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So we’re more than halfway through DS9, and would like to check out Picard S3 and Lower Decks next. Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?


PS: Also, just found out Keiko hate is a thing, and I totally get it. Supposedly the actors playing the O’Briens didn’t get along and that’s why the couple has negative chemistry. Does it feel anyone else like the writers had a grudge against her?

I think its more that as she wasn't a core character, the only time she gets brought out is when there's a disagreement/argument/strife in their relationship. So we only see her in a negative light or when something is going wrong/extreme. The rest of the time she's off-screen.

I'd agree with that.

Keiko rarely has moments where she seems to be anything but an argumentative force for the chief. There are a few moments, like when she tricks Julian and Miles into spending time together or the episode where Molly ends up in some time warp thing. In those we get to see that the O'Brien couple do get along.

But in most episodes their marriage seems to be rocky and littered with unhappiness, and it's often hard to see specifically why they stay married imo aside maybe from their children.

Which TNG episodes do you feel are essential viewing for a newcomer before moving on to those series?

Some choice TNG Episodes; Measure of a Man, The Drumhead, Yesterday's Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds 1 & 2 (introduced the Borg), Darmok, The Defector, Chain of Command 1 & 2, and definitely do watch Tapestry. EDIT: Also see Just Tony's comment below. He is correct.

Before watching Picard watch Tapestry and Unification 1 & 2. These episodes will help detail Picard as a person and his relationship with the Romulans.

There's a series of episodes that detail Worf's story before he joined the DS9 cast; Sins of the Father, Reuinion, Redemption 1 & 2, and Rightful Heir.

The episodes Ensign Ro and The Wounded serve as prequels to Deep Space Nine, introducing the first iterations of the Bajorans and the Cardassians.

Watch the following episodes bbefore watching Lower Decks; Lower Decks (the TNG episode that inspired the later series), and The First Duty (the first appearance of 'Tom Paris' *whistling*).

Actually "Q Who?" was the first onscreen appearance of the Borg, with 1st season episode "The Neutral Zone" hinting at them with the starbase disappearances.

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd agree with that.

Keiko rarely has moments where she seems to be anything but an argumentative force for the chief. There are a few moments, like when she tricks Julian and Miles into spending time together or the episode where Molly ends up in some time warp thing. In those we get to see that the O'Brien couple do get along.

But in most episodes their marriage seems to be rocky and littered with unhappiness, and it's often hard to see specifically why they stay married imo aside maybe from their children.

I think we have to believe that outside of those conflict moments, their relationship is generally positive. It's just that their relationship isn't a core focus of the whole series and they just didn't inject those positive moments because they weren't "something is happening" moments. It's a bit like we only get one episode in the whole run which shows Miles going through a whole day fixing things. Small and big things. The entire rest of the time we just see him mostly fixing big problems that arise one by one.

It could be said to be a flaw that we don't see a happy marriage all the time, but we do get those positive moments and in general I think the writers just make the assumption that if they aren't focusing on something then things in the background are "going well"

Well we just found out that J.J. Abrams will have a new lens flare Star Trek movie in addition to his fourth Star Trek film:

A New Star Trek Movie Will Explore the Origins of Starfleet - Gizmodo.com

Star Trek has been doing quite well on TV of late but it’s time to beam back to the big screen. While a fourth Star Trek film on the Kelvin timeline is still in the works, now a new project has been revealed too.

Deadline broke the news, and while there are no specifics on what the film will entail, it’s described as an origin story. We already saw the origins of all the main characters in Abrams’ original, so we are making the educated guess that Starfleet would be front and center.

Thanks for the episode recommendations!



As for that latest news, is Abrams personally involved with the new movie, or just his production company?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Keiko: I don’t count the time she tricked Miles and Julian as an example of a good relationship. First of all, it was manipulative, and she seemed very comfortable with that. Second, why did she get them to spend time together? Oh right, because she had just returned that day, seven months pregnant, from a year away from Miles, and he wanted to spend time with her. She was not cool with that.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
As for that latest news, is Abrams personally involved with the new movie, or just his production company?

As the article states, Abrams is the producer and Toby Haynes will direct.

Ah, thanks. For some reason I’d assumed the whole article had been reposted here in that quote box.

So it's Enterprise: The Movie? Seems dumb.

Just do Enterprise S5 and un-kill Trip. Ez.

Of course they’re talking to JJ Abrams despite the fact that nobody has ever been particularly fond of his take on the material, Wars or Trek, and in the years since the Rise of Skywalker he’s done almost nothing and nobody’s missed him. To add insult to injury it appears they are doing yet another origin story movie.

Why have new ideas? Just keep revisiting the past.

Brace yourself for JJ Abrams take on TNG with the Origin Story of Picard where we learn that he and Data were old buddies from the Academy!

I can't fathom how a movie about the origins of Starfleet can be anything but contradictory with previous material. Which never ends well in Star Trek.

Also why? That's gotta be the laziest premise they could come up with.

Then again, maybe I'm just tired of the timeline of the Star Trek property seeming to constantly go backwards. Why the hell is a science fiction series constantly going in reverse in its own chronology?

because modern Hollywood is avoiding all risks and as nostalgia sells, doing "origins" and reboots is the way to make money

yet we can expect another re-design and no big plan behind it so just a combination of good scenes that have nothing to do with each other hold together by low quality fillers
(and just because it worked for 1 TV show)

Look at how many times the Marvel super hero films are just origin stories followed by one or two sequels and then either a big group up film or two or another reboot to the origin story again. Spiderman did it 3 times (the 4th and I think 5th we are on now at least changed some things around), Hulk did them almost back to back.


I think its also because Origin stories write themselves, they don't have to "worry" about losing people because it starts "from the beginning" as such.


And yeah ST has some odd elements in its writing. Ever since Voyager they've had this idea that they've basically explored the whole Galaxy. That's part why Voyager was thrown to the other quadrant. So for some reason the writers feel like its hit the limits of range; that there is no more beyond

Heck the 2nd season of Picard had that huge portal from what we presume is another Galaxy and I was 100% prepared for that to be the start of a new season "exploration of the new Galaxy" End of Season 3 it could even be with Seven and her crew/ship doing that adventure.

Another downvote for JJA, retcons and prequels here (tho Strange New Worlds is excellent apart from James Kirk being cast as Jim Carrey from Wish)

Not only all that but his characters also don't feel like Startrek characters, nor behave like them.

Heck he couldn't even master the Triad of Kirk, Spock and McCoy over several films. Spock just steals the show every single time; McCoy is almost entirely ignored and pushed to tertiary character level and Kirk is generally a bumbling comic act until the last few moments of the film where his "charisma" lets him take over and somehow win things even though he displayed no real such talent leading up to it.

The chemistry between them is all wrong and unbalanced.




But ultimately none of them behave like mature ST characters that we see in other films. To be fair this is also something we see with a lot of the very new trek series. Granted the Original Series did have a lot more wild moments in it and Kirk was generally shown to be more of a flirt and rough-and-ready captain; but he still had a lot of maturity in his position as well.

Modern Trek creators seem to have shifted the Vulcans from mysterious uncaring/unemotional to just stern and mature .




Also I'm never a fan of "these adults who originally met up for the first time as adults were also apparently childhood and university friends who just somehow kind of forgot that they were " As the excuse/reason behind why origin stories end up having the same cast of named characters

I treat the Abrams Trek as a "What If...?" and I am content with it. It doesn't replace the Prime timeline for me. And as far as the prequel Naysayers? Both Enterprise and Brave New Worlds are good. Disco is a good counterpoint, though...

BobtheInquisitor wrote:Thanks for the episode recommendations!



As for that latest news, is Abrams personally involved with the new movie, or just his production company?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Keiko: I don’t count the time she tricked Miles and Julian as an example of a good relationship. First of all, it was manipulative, and she seemed very comfortable with that. Second, why did she get them to spend time together? Oh right, because she had just returned that day, seven months pregnant, from a year away from Miles, and he wanted to spend time with her. She was not cool with that.

Waitaminit...


1 year > 7 months. That means she got pregnant 5 months after the last time she saw Miles. Was that an error or am I in for one hell of a surprise when I finally get around to binging DS9?

The episode has Miles cleaning up his bachelor pad because it has been a year. However, when she mentions she’s pregnant, it comes up that they had one liaison together during the whole year, and Mike’s keeps saying things like “one time!” Or “I thought we would have to try longer for a second child.”

It’s also the second episode in which Keiko returns from an extended stay on Bajor and immediately gets tired of Miles trying to spend time with her. But this time she didn’t ring up her close botany friend on Bajor who always makes her laugh.

TBF, there wasn't a whole lot of space to explore Miles and Keiko when they already had Bashir and Dax, Sisko being lonely, Odo and Kira, Dukat and Kira, Odo and Quark, Garak and Bashir, Bashir and Leeta, Rom and Leeta, Dax and Worf, Sisko and Cassidy, Odo and the Female Changeling, and Quark and Latinum.
Plus every single one off character was more interesting than Keiko.

Exactly. We see her in moments of conflict within the story because those are interesting character development moments. The rest of the time we just don't see her. She's not a one-shot character, she's just a side character and so gets limited development.

In the end their relationship might not be all hugs and kisses every few moments, but it is likely positive.

Consider that the Federation has no real barriers to divorce; there's no state religion to follow; no social stigma; no clear financial pressures.
Though there does seem to be a general push toward what many would consider a Christian/western style relationship and family development within the Federation, but other than that there's no real overt pressures for them to remain together if they chose to separate.

Plus their relationship clearly seems to survive quite a lot of separation in general. Perhaps part of it is that they spend a lot of time apart and then have to settle back into actually being in a relationship and dealing with another person in their life.

I agree that the intention is for us to accept they have a good marriage and love each other. Unfortunately, the writing and the negative chemistry/body language paint a different picture. If it’s true the actors didn’t get along and that the writers had a “Miles must suffer” policy, then the subtext may even be a deliberate choice to some degree.

Ah yes, "Tonight on DS9 Miles O'Brien gets put through a woodchipper, reconstituted with a transporter, and then kicked in the nards by a Cardassian child".
My favourite.

New 'Star Trek' film will explore early years of Starfleet, Paramount reveals - SPACE.com

... this upcoming "Star Trek" film, which is destined to examine the early days of Starfleet a generation or so after the events of the prime universe's "Star Trek: Enterprise," from a screenplay written by the king of literary mash-ups, Seth Grahame-Smith ("Pride and Prejudice and Zombies," "Abraham Lincoln," Vampire Hunter," "The Lego Batman Movie").

J.J. Abrams will act as producer under his familiar Bad Robot banner.

I'm a little concerned that Seth Grahame-Smith is more of a comic/horror writer than he is sci-fi or "serious" stuff writer.

Which if you pair with JJ Abrams and his earlier renditions of characters like Kirk in his reboot makes me a bit worried that we are going to get another rather juvenile take on the ST universe and the start of Starfleet.

They are going back to "prime universe" (how I hate that that's become a term!) which is a boon, but I'm still worried they'll mess it up somehow. Heck I'd argue even Enterprise messed itself up by jumping for all that Temporal War thing

Yeah, its just that article theorizing that it will be an origin story of Starfleet probably because whoever wrote that article never watched Enterprise. I agree though that we good for prequels for. like forever, with Star Trek. Not that big a fan of Picard but at least it did make the timeline.... go forward through time.

It seems the Star Trek timeline is catching up with the real world.

I was just watching the ds9 episode where Sisko, Dax and Bashir go “back in time” to 2024.

Can’t remember the title, but it was the one about the “Bell Riots” where the dystopia that is our period (August 30, 2024 I think) starts a period of civil unrest that ends up, in some weird way, becoming the cornerstone of the Federation.

Didn’t think times were quite that rough, but considering the price of gas and groceries, who knows? We might just get there.

So, what are YOU planning on doing to usher in the Golden Age? Or make things worse if you’re the Khan Noonien Singh type?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looked it up. “Past Tense” was its name.

I find it interesting that the episode accurately predicted the significant role the rising cost of living and a stagnating labor market would be in 2024. Apathy on the part of the broader population. Use of force by police. The growing gap between affluent and subsistent living that have been slow rolling through the world as the middle class backslides.

Obviously the situation in the US isn't as dystopic as the episode presents, but I find it neat that they correctly predicted some the social stresses/controversies that are running around right now.

Granted back in the 90s, between the LA Riots, the MOVE bombings, NAFTA controversies, maybe it's not that impressive. Most of what we're dealing with now we were dealing with then too. They just weren't as prominent in culture and public discourse at the time the episode was made.

But that's the cool thing about DS9, imo. Homefront and Paradise Lost take on new meaning in a post-9/11 world. The characters of Dukat and Wynn have imo only become more relevant over time. The Ship is still a great story episode about the way large conflicts grow from distrust and the bad blood that results. DS9 was a solid series with a lot of good episodes and even some of the mediocre ones still speak to the world we live in.

One question, and I didn’t even think about it until we started this discussion. Why was the timeline unaffected?

In every other ST time travel episode that I can think of, even the slightest shift in things, even if it’s just some social worker getting run over by a bus, instantly changes the entire future.

But in this one, Kira and O’Brien are just going on talking about what happened in the “present” universe, and apparently nothing has changed.

So why isn’t Quark all of a sudden the Mentat-Ferengi Emperor of the all-conquering Bolians? Why hasn’t anything changed?

Perhaps more importantly, since nothing has changed, why don’t they do the smart thing and leave well enough alone, rather than trying to fix what ain’t broken?