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Alright, so. I just got home from my first game against a Tyranid player.

Now, just to make things clear. We were doing 750 points, and since I'm only running an eldar battleforce for the time being which roughly equals up to 360 - 420 in points, depending how you set up the Weapons platform/War Walker/Wave serpent. I was allied up with some imperial guard player. The IG player and I split on 375 points.

Anyway,

I had set up with

10 Guardians - 8 Regular guardians - 2 Weapons platform crew + platform equipped with a Scatter laser.

5 Dire avengers - 4 Regular Dire avengers - 1 DA Exarch with Power weapon and Shimmer sheild.

1 War walker with Shuriken cannon and Eldar Missile Launcher. (Quick question, Can I use both plasma and krak shots with these? or are they specified to a certain shot? I'm a newbie :()

1 Wave Serpent with twin linked Bright Lances and Twin linked Shuriken cannons

Thats my list that I had used for the game. This is my first with them and i really need to invest in more units. I'm aiming to make a more mechanized army with my eldar so I wanna emphasize on my Heavy choices. (I really like how my War Walker had done in the game. Last unit to survive before I was wiped out)

Now, i'm just curious what would be my best options to kill off a tyranid swarm ? (He had two or so squads of Genestealers. 20 or so termagaunts, 3 Warriors. 4 ripper swarms. I didn't really focus too much on counting them, haha. I was more concerned with killing them off before they got close.) I had knocked off a good deal of his units before reaching me but his genestealers ended up really ripping us apart as they got close, I really didn't have much of a chance beyond that point. I should be getting more eldar from a freind by next week, not sure what exactly but I do know i'm getting more guardians/Weapon platforms and war walkers.

Other armies I will be facing : Tau focused on typical range. Mechanized IG. Vanilla Space marines. Chaos SM.

Any help is much appreciated. Thanks!

Mech up if you want to take the competitive route. I have also heard foot eldar *can* be competitive though I'm not familiar with them.

Eldrad and Yriel as HQ's make your army hard as nails if used correctly (with harlequins in falcons). Had some bad experiences with them in the past.

A couple of troops of bladestorming dire avengers popping out of a serpent in rapid fire range can cripple a swarm. Or at least buy you more time to hurt the MC's. Just make sure you disembark sensibly.

I'm not too familiar with eldar generally but these tactics have been used against me with great effect. I'm sure others will offer more advice.

First step is getting a good HQ. A Farseer is a necessity, get one for sure. As mentioned before, Eldrad is a fantastic Farseer character as long as you don't mind spending the points on him. I really can't stress how powerful a Farseer can make your army. They may be the best support psykers in the game. In fact, I think they are.

If you're in the market for two HQs, I've had wonderful experiences with the Avatar. Running him next to the Farseer is awesome. Cast Fortune on him and watch lascannons bounce off his re-rollable 4+. Meanwhile, your Guardians (or whatever might be footslogging nearby) will laugh in the face of 25% casualties due to the Fearless the Avatar grants them. It's a potent combo.

Lukus83 wrote:Mech up if you want to take the competitive route. I have also heard foot eldar *can* be competitive though I'm not familiar with them.

Eldrad and Yriel as HQ's make your army hard as nails if used correctly (with harlequins in falcons). Had some bad experiences with them in the past.

A couple of troops of bladestorming dire avengers popping out of a serpent in rapid fire range can cripple a swarm. Or at least buy you more time to hurt the MC's. Just make sure you disembark sensibly.

I'm not too familiar with eldar generally but these tactics have been used against me with great effect. I'm sure others will offer more advice.

This is rubbish advice.

That DA+Serpent combo probably costs close to 300 points.

300 points of gaunts is 60 of them.

If you pop out, you'll kill maybe 15 or so gaunts. That is not a "crippled" swarm. Then your dire avengers die, or he'll just ignore them and kill something else because they can't shoot for a turn, then they have to either re-embark (if your wave serpent has been killed yet) or die to assault next turn.

If your opponent is running a very efficient 'nid list, you're going to be facing an uphill battle for sure. The "foot" Eldar army being mentioned actually does quite well against Nids because you're not wasting points on highly points-inefficient wave serpents, but that foot Eldar army does not do well against properly mechanized 5th-edition forces.

If you want a unit that is good firepower and highly usable against nids, warp spiders are very decent, as you can make the most of your assault phase jump against armies that aren't mechanized.

Ok, well I said others would offer more (and I should have said better) advice.

I only know what has been used against me and has worked.

Telling somebody to go foot Eldar when they are asking for anti-Tyranid advice is literally telling them to kill off their own models.

Invest in wave serpents for every squad. Ignore falcons. Falcons are hyped up because of holofields, but serpents are 20-30 points cheaper, ignore melta (helpful against every army that's not Nids), ignore warp lances, and ignore rupture cannons. Plus, if you take a few falcons and a few wave serpents, and you need to move a 7 person squad to an objective at the end of the game, you're totally screwed if that squad is only near a falcon.

Fire dragons will annihilate any Tyranid unit that is T4 or higher and is not a genestealer. A single salvo of fusion gun fire can eliminate hundreds of Tyranid points at an almost unfair rate.

If you are at risk of being assaulted, wait in cover. 95% of the book doesn't even have access to grenades, so you can negate their high I and do serious damage to their squads before they can strike.

But most importantly,

MECH UP.

Wave serpents do not "ignore" warp lances, or rupture cannons. They still get penned 1/3 of the time. Hive guard make an utter mockery of AV12, energy field or no.

Waiting in cover doesn't do you much good when you're not good at killing things in H2H in the first place.

If you're running a wave serpent list against a really good nid list, you're going to be circling around, waiting for the moment to strike, and that moment will never come, because you know that the moment you disembark, anything that did so is dead.

The wave serpents alone do not do enough damage to put a big enough dent in the Tyranid army to allow you to stay embarked all game.

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

The best protection are the runes.
Runes of witnesses neutralize shadows of the warp.

wuestenfux wrote:

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

The best protection are the runes.
Runes of witnesses neutralize shadows of the warp.

Eh, it's not quite clear yet how they interact, which is why I was hesitant to suggest them. Of course, in the current environment I think you should always have both runes just in case.

willydstyle wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

The best protection are the runes.
Runes of witnesses neutralize shadows of the warp.

Eh, it's not quite clear yet how they interact, which is why I was hesitant to suggest them. Of course, in the current environment I think you should always have both runes just in case.

It has already been clarified. Look into the Eldar FAQ's.

willydstyle wrote:Wave serpents do not "ignore" warp lances, or rupture cannons. They still get penned 1/3 of the time. Hive guard make an utter mockery of AV12, energy field or no.

Waiting in cover doesn't do you much good when you're not good at killing things in H2H in the first place.

If you're running a wave serpent list against a really good nid list, you're going to be circling around, waiting for the moment to strike, and that moment will never come, because you know that the moment you disembark, anything that did so is dead.

The wave serpents alone do not do enough damage to put a big enough dent in the Tyranid army to allow you to stay embarked all game.

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

You know what I meant. Energy Field significantly reduces the effectiveness of S9+ weapons. Warp Lance will still be countered by Runes of Warding, and you can still get Flat Out Skimmer cover saves against Impaler Cannons. Seeing as how Hive Guards are 3-man Elites choices who have to footslog, it's very easy to prioritize and kill them early on with Shuriken Cannons/Scatter Lasers. Zoanthropes are even easier to deal with using those very same weapons.

"Not good at killing things in H2H" means that you have, at minimum, better armor AND will strike first. If an Aspect Warrior of any kind is in cover, they'll hit most Tyranids on a 3+ due to their abysmal WS3, go first, AND shrug off half the return hits. The only real problem is fighting against Warriors, and those are easily avoided due to their incredibly short threat range.

Also, who was suggesting you get out of your car? Why would anybody get out of their car? That's like recommending that somebody footslog against Tyranids, except also paying the points for the vehicles which make you nearly immune to the entire army.

wuestenfux wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Probably the best unit against nids will be the jetbike seer council, but your all-important rolls to cast fortune will be very vulnerable to failure because of Shadows of the Warp.

The best protection are the runes.
Runes of witnesses neutralize shadows of the warp.

Eh, it's not quite clear yet how they interact, which is why I was hesitant to suggest them. Of course, in the current environment I think you should always have both runes just in case.

It has already been clarified. Look into the Eldar FAQ's.

The Eldar FAQ is referring to an outdated Tyranid codex (and the date at the end of the FAQ reflects this). If you want to play that game, the Tyranid FAQ says all Tyranids have Eternal Warrior when within Synapse range.

@Broken Loose: because if you don't get out of your wave serpents, and just keep going flat out to keep from getting sploded, then you'll never kill anything or win the game, will you?

willydstyle wrote:@Broken Loose: because if you don't get out of your wave serpents, and just keep going flat out to keep from getting sploded, then you'll never kill anything or win the game, will you?

2/3 of the time you win by contesting objectives, not killing things. If you keep your forces moving and pick at the nids synapse all game you can probably pull off a turn 5 contest.

Who cares? You're practically invincible to their army and they can't do a damn thing when you tank shock all the objectives on the last turn of the game. You have literally no reason to leave your vehicles.


edit: what BishopX said, too.

Broken Loose wrote:Who cares? You're practically invincible to their army and they can't do a damn thing when you tank shock all the objectives on the last turn of the game. You have literally no reason to leave your vehicles.


edit: what BishopX said, too.

Except the last turn is fairly random, and what if the nid player wins the roll and gives you first turn?

Good players can see it coming and prepare for it, so many times this strategy just nets you a tie in the end.

Mech-dar are actually quite weak against swarm armies, and if you really expect to win with mobility alone, you are just being silly.

You can bring quite a bit of S6 weaponry in a Mech army, through Wave serpents (Tl. SC + Us. SC= 6 S6 shots), Vypers (SC + Us. SC= 6 S6 shots), and Warp spiders (YMMV). Storm Guardians with flamers and a Destructor-Warlock, are generally more effective against swarms, when compared to Dire avengers. DA do better at taking on units like Warriors and the like, as they can both spam small arms, and assault with an invulnerable. DA also cost quite a bit more to make full use of them, and defend is a much better power than bladestorm, IMHO.

In general, footslogging Eldar do better against armies such as Orks and Tyranids, while Mech-dar do better in general against other Mech forces. Your mobility doesn't really help that much when your opponent can simply carpet the board with a swarm of infantry. The cost of Eldar weaponry, combined with the cost of transports, makes Mech-dar one of the lowest damage output Mech forces in the game. Most other armies that are geared to be mechanized, can easily outshoot you, but your mobility will help counter that. When you are being outshot/assaulted, by footslogging forces that can simply deny your ability to use mobility; there is very little room for error.

Spamming S6 weapons while playing Mech, is the most effective way to counter swarm armies overall, though. Scatterlasers, are a fantastic way to give your army generally superior range over most swarm armies. Shuriken Cannons will put you well within range of most swarm weaponry, and that can be a huge problem if you only have 5 or so tanks to plink around. Some people supplement Mech-dar, with Warwalkers to add extra firepower, but I would probably use Sh. cannon Vypers simply because they fit in the strategy better. Warp Spiders are also another option, as they can hop in front of your tanks and pop shots off, then hop back behind cover after.

Pathfinders do a fantastic job of taking out MC's, especially when you are able to supplement their damage with a Doom-seer. Harlequins (always get H. Kisses) are another unit that can benefit in the same way, while still being pretty effective against MC's without aid. All of this depends on your local meta-game though, if you are constantly fighting against swarms, you are going to need an awful lot of firepower to counter their numbers. Fire prisms are another unit that can add a substantial amount of Anti-infantry to your list, while also supplementing your anti-MC firepower. The 'new' x-large bases being used by a couple Tyranid MC's, will be very easy to drop blasts on.

Fire dragons can also serve as multi-purpose units when you add in a HF-Exarch w/ c. shot. Wraithguard are quite good at doing taking out MC's, as they will instakill on 6's to wound, and you can reliably get one insta-kill wound, per 5 WG, per 2 turns. Taking out that scary Trygon with 1-2 salvos (which you may or may not end up running into) will bring you a mighty satisfying feeling.

wraithcannons do put a hurt on MCs, but 5 wraithguard with a warlock is 200 points, which is a significant investement. with just 12" range on your shooting, you probably need a transport, which kicks this units cost up even further.

Also remember that vs the Trygon his assault range is greater than your shooting range, and i think i would put my money on the trygon once they are in CC with your wraithguard.

It seems like it should be pretty easy for the nid player to either avoid the 12" range entirely, or at least set up in a way that your wraithguard get assaulted the turn after they fire their first salvo, which means you need to insta-kill the MC with the first salvo, which you only have a 50% chance of pulling off.

I think fire dragons will be nearly as effective vs nids, FAR better against any other list you face, and half the points.

As a nid player, let me say this:

I HATE S8 AP1 WEAPONS!

hahaha, that is all.

Count Bonchula wrote:wraithcannons do put a hurt on MCs, but 5 wraithguard with a warlock is 200 points, which is a significant investement. with just 12" range on your shooting, you probably need a transport, which kicks this units cost up even further.

300 points to counter an expensive MC isn't bad. If I am not mistaken, the Trygon costs at least 250 points. Eldar tanks can move 2 ft. the first turn, 1 ft. the second turn, disembark their units at 2" (or use the tank to provide an assault/ shooting shield), providing a potential 50" range for your WG/FD; when considered over the course of the first two turns. It is not incredibly hard to get first shots against an army that lacks large amounts of long range firepower, such as most Tyranid armies, especially Nidzilla.

Also remember that vs the Trygon his assault range is greater than your shooting range, and i think i would put my money on the trygon once they are in CC with your wraithguard.

Fire dragons would die within 1-2 rounds of combat with a Trygon, and they can't do any damage in assaults. WG can tarpit a Trygon, that is no small feat. Warlocks can reliably get a wound in, on the assault. Witchblades are very useful additions to most units.

It seems like it should be pretty easy for the nid player to either avoid the 12" range entirely, or at least set up in a way that your wraithguard get assaulted the turn after they fire their first salvo, which means you need to insta-kill the MC with the first salvo, which you only have a 50% chance of pulling off.

I think fire dragons will be nearly as effective vs nids, FAR better against any other list you face, and half the points.

If a Trygon can avoid shots from WG, then it can avoid shots from FD as well. There is absolutely no difference in their range, and WG can actually survive outside of tanks for more than 2 seconds, even when in combat with a vicious MC. If you are using 6 FD, you'll average 4 hits per turn, and 3-4 wounds vs. T6. 9 FD will average 6 hits/ 5-6 wounds. That is barely enough to take down a Trygon, and they are almost guaranteed to die the second your opponent gets a chance to return fire. A single WG, surviving shooting, can move 6", then shoot 12", at a total 'range' of 18". That single WG, can insta-kill a Trygon with full wounds. 2 FD simply could not do that, not even 3 FD could do that. They would have an incredibly hard time actually being able to make that second salvo, without dieing to small arms fire.

In terms of potential damage, WG are simply superior to FD when firing at scary MCs. I would use FD (with a HF Exarch), to take down Tervigons though, hopefully your opponent was decent enough to make something that is too large to get cover from lowly gaunts. The flamer will absolutely toast gaunts in between the Tervigon and the Exarch, combined with 5 solid shots to the Tervigon itself. Storm Gaurdians w/ flamers (HF Warlock), can also put a couple of wounds on the Tervigon, while shooting at the gaunts instead.

Wrexasaur wrote: ...

Trygon (as I field them) are 210 points. And yes you can probably get easy first turn shots against them with your WG. You then have a 50% chance to ID the trygon with that first volley. Best case scenario if you pull it off, the nid player gets to eat your WG (likely with spawned gants or something with very little value, and even if it takes a couple phases for gant poison to grind out the WG it still costs next to nothing for the nid player) and you traded your 200 point squad for a 200 point MC.

Worst case, you fail to ID him with first volley. Nid player still eats your WG with gants, and potentially shoots down their transport with his hiveguard that same turn, at which point you are out 300 points in return for a few wounds on an MC and some dead gants.

Firedragons have all the same weaknesses in that matchup, but you either have a lot less invested in them, or a lot more models. Also, assuming you are list building for a balanced list to be played against many different opponents, rather than tailoring vs nids, the FDs are far better in most non-nid matchups.



All that said, I will happily concede the point that wraithguard have extremely high potential dmg vs MCs and when they do pull off the ID shots you are bound to make your opponent feel quite sad. The question is whether you are ok with spending a fairly large number of points for a the chance at that 50% dice roll. I just think they arent good enough in other matchups and that the increased dmg potential they bring vs nids isnt proportionate to the increased cost when comparing them with FDs.