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How many attacks does Eldrad get on the charge with the Staff of Ulthamar? I was watching Fritz's youtube videos, and they play it as 2 per subsequent assault phase - so I guess 3 on the charge.#

Also, does a Farseer only get 1 attack per subsequent round of combat if equipped with a singing spear?

garigon wrote:How many attacks does Eldrad get on the charge with the Staff of Ulthamar? I was watching Fritz's youtube videos, and they play it as 2 per subsequent assault phase - so I guess 3 on the charge.#

He gets his base attacks only. He has more than 1 special CCW so never gets the bonus attacks.

Gwar is correct almost all the time, probably over 99.9% as has been claimed by some, but this is one of those few times that his statements are not in keeping with the RAW.

Eldrad gets +1 attack for using two ccweapons as long as the player is not trying to use both the witch blade and the staff of ulthamar at the same time. There are rules in the brb (pg 42 in particular) that deal with a model that attempts to use two different special ccws, and those models do not gain an extra attack. However, in no interpretation of the rules can this rule completely limit Eldrad since:

1) either the player can choose to use the pistol and one of his special ccws or

2) a model is always using all of the weapons with which he is equipped; in which case the rule cant apply to Eldrad since he is not "using" two weapons, he is using three.

So either interpretation of the word "using" shows that Eldrad is fine. There was a long involved thread at one time about the exact meaning of wielding, using and equipped in which some people equated the terms and some drew distinctions between the terms.

There can be a better arguement made that the staff isnt listed as a one handed ccw, but that still allows eldrad to use the witch blade and pistol at the very least.

INAT has faqed the staff to be a one handed weapon, at least partially because the writer of the eldar codex played the staff as being a one handed weapon.


The overall best answer however is: keep eldrad out of cc so that you never have to worry about his attacks


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Gwar is correct almost all the time, probably over 99.9% as has been claimed by some, but this is one of those few times that his statements are not in keeping with the RAW.

Answer me this:
How many Special CCW does Eldrad have? Just a single number please.
Does he have to choose which one of these special CCW to use? Yes or no Please.

Keep in mind you must always use a Special Weapon if you have one.

Ahh, but no, one doesnt have to always use a special *weapon* if one has one. One does always have to use special attcks, but attacks are certainly not the same thing as weapons.

Eldrad has two special cc weapons and one nonspecial cc weapon. So for special ccw it is: 2.

No, eldrad has no rule requiring him to use any particular number of his special weapons. Now if he had a special close combat attack he would be required to use that, since he does not have a special attack we can skip the rule on pg 35. There is nothing requiring Eldrad to choose his two special ccw as his combat weapons. Most eldar players would prefer to gain +1 attack by having him wield one of his special ccws and his pistol. In theorey one could probably say he was wielding only his pistol, or punching to only use his base stats. So the answer would be : no.


Sliggoth

Eldrad can fight with either:
   Shuriken Pistol + Staff of Ulthamar (Stat Line + 1 attack)
   Shuriken Pistol + Witchblade (Stat Line + 1 attack)

Belphegor wrote:Eldrad can fight with either:
   Shuriken Pistol + Staff of Ulthamar (Stat Line + 1 attack)
   Shuriken Pistol + Witchblade (Stat Line + 1 attack)

No, he can't. He has to use the STaff and the Witchblade. By your logic you can turn off power fists, which you are not allowed to do.

Page 42 under attacking with two different Special Weapons seems relevant in regards to using Staff of Ulthamar+Witchblade
I'm not seeing where you have to choose a special weapon over a pistol when there are three applicable single-handed weapons are carried (in a case where only two may be used).

Gwar! wrote:

Belphegor wrote:Eldrad can fight with either:
   Shuriken Pistol + Staff of Ulthamar (Stat Line + 1 attack)
   Shuriken Pistol + Witchblade (Stat Line + 1 attack)

No, he can't. He has to use the STaff and the Witchblade. By your logic you can turn off power fists, which you are not allowed to do.

Sliggoth wrote:Ahh, but no, one doesnt have to always use a special *weapon* if one has one. One does always have to use special attcks, but attacks are certainly not the same thing as weapons.

Eldrad has two special cc weapons and one nonspecial cc weapon. So for special ccw it is: 2.

No, eldrad has no rule requiring him to use any particular number of his special weapons. Now if he had a special close combat attack he would be required to use that, since he does not have a special attack we can skip the rule on pg 35. There is nothing requiring Eldrad to choose his two special ccw as his combat weapons. Most eldar players would prefer to gain +1 attack by having him wield one of his special ccws and his pistol. In theorey one could probably say he was wielding only his pistol, or punching to only use his base stats. So the answer would be : no.


Sliggoth

Can you respond to this directly please, GWAR? Id like to hear your reasonsing around this.

The rules don't really cover when you have three different weapons. Some people think you get to choose two of those weapons, and that is generally how I see it played.

So, what happens if you have three different special weapons?

The reason given is that you NEVER get the bonus "such is the penalty for wielding so many complex weapons"

So, riddle me this: if wielding 2 complex weapons meanms you never get the attacks, why does having 3 weapons suddenly make it easier?

Amazingly the "RAI"ist go silent at that point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The reason given is that you NEVER get the bonus "such is the penalty for wielding so many complex weapons"

So, riddle me this: if wielding 2 complex weapons meanms you never get the attacks, why does having 3 weapons suddenly make it easier?

Amazingly the "RAI"ist go silent at that point.

When you wield 1 complex weapon and 1 simple weapon, you don't have a penalty. Having does not mean the same as "wielding". So if Eldrad uses his Staff and his pistol, he's kosher. The RAI crowd doesn't have to say anything because that's RAW BABY!

Yes, it all comes down to the simple bit that wielding is not the same as toting around somewhere on the model's body. Its the concept of why a model armed with a two handed weapon and two one handed ccw can use the two one handed ccw to gain an attack, even thos they are also armed with a heavy rifle or the like.


Sliggoth

I think this quote from the BRB may be relevant here
Page 42 two different special weapons

"When it is their turn to attack these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)."

RAW basically states he can only use one of the special weapons not that he can not use the pistol as a normal hence the additional attack. RAI seems to go the same way in my opinion. I say this because he must CHOOSE one of the special weapons but he still has the pistol to use making him a special weapon and normal weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Gwar is correct almost all the time, probably over 99.9% as has been claimed by some, but this is one of those few times that his statements are not in keeping with the RAW.

Answer me this:
How many Special CCW does Eldrad have? Just a single number please.
Does he have to choose which one of these special CCW to use? Yes or no Please.

Keep in mind you must always use a Special Weapon if you have one.

Eldrad qualifies for both "A Normal and a Special Weapon" and "Two Different Special Weapons". There is no information about which one takes precedence, so the player can choose to give him one more attack or not.

You've also already agreed with me in your own FAQ: http://www.wargamingfaqs.com/40k/Eldar#Elrad_Ulthran

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Gwar is correct almost all the time, probably over 99.9% as has been claimed by some, but this is one of those few times that his statements are not in keeping with the RAW.

Answer me this:
How many Special CCW does Eldrad have? Just a single number please.
Does he have to choose which one of these special CCW to use? Yes or no Please.

Keep in mind you must always use a Special Weapon if you have one.

Eldrad qualifies for both "A Normal and a Special Weapon" and "Two Different Special Weapons". There is no information about which one takes precedence, so the player can choose to give him one more attack or not.

You've also already agreed with me in your own FAQ: http://www.wargamingfaqs.com/40k/Eldar#Elrad_Ulthran

WHAT THE FAQ SAYS AND WHAT THE RULES SAY DO NOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO EACH OTHER.
Sorry, it's just you are the 3rd person to do this today and it is ticking me off massively.

Yes, it is unclear, and I feel that the RaW is that you cannot do what you say, but it IS unclear, hence the Clarification.

How can say that you "feel" the RAW is one way? Are you finally coming to your senses and admitting that RAW can be subjective?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:How can say that you "feel" the RAW is one way? Are you finally coming to your senses and admitting that RAW can be subjective?

No, it is a figure of speech. The RaW is unclear, I do admit that. However, I am of the opinion that in this particular instance, the RaW favors the "No bonus attack" result, but I can see why others would think otherwise.

I'm in the no additional attacks camp, for the same reason Gwar has already posted. Eldrad has two different special ccw. He is required to choose one of them to attack with. Inn doing so, he falls into the two different special weapons rule which has the phrase "NEVER" gets the +1 for additional weapons. Sure, he has a pistol Does the pistol/special rule say that it ovcerrides the "nevern" in the two different special paragraph? No, it doesn't.

And as non-rules support, this question came up prior to the last US GTs. In a judge's conference weks prior to the GTs, GW decided that Eldard did not get +1 attack. Took a couple weeks to get the answer as the US GW staff wanted to contact the UK Studio before ruling on it.................

The problem being that the entire rules section being used is called: fighting with two single-handed weapons.

If eldrad is fighting with two weapons then that means he gets to choose two of his weapons.

OR

If eldrad is fighting with all three of his weapons then this entire section cannot apply to him.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:The problem being that the entire rules section being used is called: fighting with two single-handed weapons.

If eldrad is fighting with two weapons then that means he gets to choose two of his weapons.

Exactly, he has to choose, which means he cannot get the bonus attack.

Sliggoth wrote:The problem being that the entire rules section being used is called: fighting with two single-handed weapons.

If eldrad is fighting with two weapons then that means he gets to choose two of his weapons.

OR

If eldrad is fighting with all three of his weapons then this entire section cannot apply to him.


Sliggoth

As an avid eldar player, I think this is a ridiculous argument.

Is this a permissive rule set?

No, it isn't.

That means he doesn't get to choose which two weapons he gest to use, he gets to choose which special weapon to use, because the rules let you do that

Also, as has been said, the word 'never' is very clear.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Eldrad qualifies for both "A Normal and a Special Weapon" and "Two Different Special Weapons". There is no information about which one takes precedence, so the player can choose to give him one more attack or not.

This is correct and cannot be refuted. Eldrad has both 'A Normal and a Special Weapon' as much as he has 'Two Different Special Weapons'. There is absolutely no indication that one set of rules takes precedence over the other, therefore there is no clear RAW on this matter.

Huh that is what I get for trusting AB, it lists the staff as a Two-Handed weapon with nothing to back it up. RaW is a little unclear because he is fighting with 3 weapons so the situation isn't covered.

RAI seems to be rather clear to me that they intended to prevent 2 special weapons from giving each other a +1 attack for CCW and in this instance your just ignoring the other special CCW and using the pistol to bolster the special weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

Belphegor wrote:Eldrad can fight with either:
   Shuriken Pistol + Staff of Ulthamar (Stat Line + 1 attack)
   Shuriken Pistol + Witchblade (Stat Line + 1 attack)

No, he can't. He has to use the STaff and the Witchblade. By your logic you can turn off power fists, which you are not allowed to do.

Powerfists aren't applicable to this discussion IMO because they're listed as not getting the extra attack under the Powerfist section. Just like Eviserators state that an extra attack can't be gained in the WH and DH codex, same with Relic blades in codex Ultramarines.
There's nothing specifically that states that Eldrad doesn't get his extra attack. Also, he's got a pistol, why would he have a pistol? Just for the 1 shot before charging? Seems like a waste, and a lot of complication to go though.

The never arguement can only possibly if one believes that wielding = wearing or carrying. So there are two hurdles for the never part of the rule to take effect, first one has to believe that wielding = the total number of weapons that the model is equipped with AND one has to then somehow say that the rule (which only coveras using two weapons) somehow applies when one is faced with the problem that this model has three weapons.

If one does for some reason think wielding = equipped with, then one can bring in the fluff arguement that three would be harder than two, of course.


Sliggoth

yakface wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Eldrad qualifies for both "A Normal and a Special Weapon" and "Two Different Special Weapons". There is no information about which one takes precedence, so the player can choose to give him one more attack or not.

This is correct and cannot be refuted. Eldrad has both 'A Normal and a Special Weapon' as much as he has 'Two Different Special Weapons'. There is absolutely no indication that one set of rules takes precedence over the other, therefore there is no clear RAW on this matter.

If it weren't for the word "never" in one of them, I'd agree with you. Similar to assaulting after running but cannot assaulting after deep striking. One allows, one disallows. Which one takes precedence?

Sliggoth wrote:The never arguement can only possibly if one believes that wielding = wearing or carrying. So there are two hurdles for the never part of the rule to take effect, first one has to believe that wielding = the total number of weapons that the model is equipped with AND one has to then somehow say that the rule (which only coveras using two weapons) somehow applies when one is faced with the problem that this model has three weapons.

If one does for some reason think wielding = equipped with, then one can bring in the fluff arguement that three would be harder than two, of course.

Sliggoth

Gw already did it for us:
FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations

Equipped. Nuff said?

RAW: He has two special weapons and a normal weapon. Zoom in: Two special weapons. He doesn't get an extra attack. Zoom in Moar: The normal adds an attack for using the two weapons, but the two specials essentially "remove" an extra attack. Hence, no extra attacks.

If I am wrong please let me know and explain how this is wrong.

don_mondo wrote:
Gw already did it for us:
FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations

Equipped. Nuff said?

No, because Eldrad is NOT equipped with two single-handed weapons, he is equipped with three.

This is why the rules presented must be applied to the use of two weapons, because any other interpretation means that the rules presented don't cover any combination of weapons besides what is listed there, and Eldrad doesn't fall into any of those categories.

Sliggoth wrote:The never arguement can only possibly if one believes that wielding = wearing or carrying. So there are two hurdles for the never part of the rule to take effect, first one has to believe that wielding = the total number of weapons that the model is equipped with AND one has to then somehow say that the rule (which only coveras using two weapons) somehow applies when one is faced with the problem that this model has three weapons.

If one does for some reason think wielding = equipped with, then one can bring in the fluff arguement that three would be harder than two, of course.


Sliggoth

Hasn't this been covered ad nauseum in the Marneus Calgar threads? First of all, the RAW camp is reading the passage too broadly when it should be read very finely. The RAW camp is saying that the rules on page 42 refer to the character's profile that he is choosing between. When the RAI camp (speaking for some of us here) believes that it is talking about the one he is deciding to use between the two he's chosen. It's not talking about Eldrad choosing amongst the weapons he has on him. It's talking about Eldrad choosing which of the two are going to be his main weapon in that assault (of the ones he's chosen to use). And then it goes on to say that he'll never get a bonus attack for using two weapons (because he's wielding too many special close combat weapons.) Again: it's not talking about choosing from his profile. It's talking about choosing the one between the two that he's chosen. If you had 10 CCWs, and you chose to use two of them, you don't lose your attack because you chose two weapons (broad reading). You lose your attack because the two you chose were two different special weapons (fine reading).

This is what I love about the Marneus Calgar threads - that the RAW loyalists keep bringing up a broad reading as if to say that a choice of any weapon on his profile precludes him from a bonus attack. So, he was given a "pair of matched powerfists" (where, anywhere else in the world but dakkadakka.com would be considered to be two single-handed power fists, even on the tabletops of GW, I'd wager) with the express rule of being allowed to use them together to gain an attack (pg. 42 BGB, A Normal and a Special Weapon heading), then has the ability revoked the very next paragraph by simply having a power sword. So, they gave him a pair of matched power fists for what? So he'd look like Mega Man? Why not just give him 1? Why even call them a "pair"?

Anyway, I'll digress because Gwar! has probably already alerted a mod simply because I'm replying. However, if you want to get RAW dirty:

As Yakface pointed out (at least, what I got from his post) that the "two different special weapons" paragraph doesn't apply to Eldrad. He doesn't have two special weapons, he doesn't have a normal and a special weapon, and he doesn't have two of the same special weapon. Nor does he have two normal close combat weapons. He has two special weapons and a normal weapon. He has three. So, none of those paragraphs apply. So, for the RAW loyalists, Eldrad may not attack at all, because there's no rules stating how he has to choose between three weapons. Yep, I'm sure that's exactly what GW meant.