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im having little arguiment about who are OP and why. So hes saying that eldar wraithlords and phoenix lords are OP. What do you think?
U can also say what stats would be good for them.

Eldar (not Eldars, a minor quibble).
If anything Pheonix lords are too expensive to be justifiable over eldrad and the like.
Wraithlords have no invulnerable save and are huge targets. Sure T8 is hard to crack, but it's not like the heavy weapons won't be aimed at it anyway.
I could think of more specific reasons but I'm at work and tired so I'll let the others do it

uhhh i don't think eldar are OP. i play against Crazythang's eldar all the time and he had to learn through trial and error how to get around eldar's suck stat lines. I'm not saying eldar are bad or anything, but i think they require alot of finesse to play correctly.
As far as wraithlords and phoenix lords are concerned, i don't really no alot about eldar, but Crazythang has used Marun Ra (phoenix lord, right?) and he was pretty annoying, but it didn't really own me. As for wraithlords they look like something thats going to draw alot of fire, but probably put down the hurt, but i doubt they're op...

I wouldn't say Eldar are over-powered, but they are definitely a very easy army to do well with, and have a high degree of list flexibility. You can go with Mechanized Eldar, with excellent results, Wraith March, and have excellent results, Guardian Mob, excellent results, and many many other excellent lists. Basically, if you use simple tactics and conservative lists your Eldar army will be very tough to beat.

Eldar can be pretty good, but their by no means overpowered. They certainly have far less alround competativeness than, say, SW (ie SW can be pretty compentaive with many different styles of list, Eldar less so)

PLords are poor units, being FAR to expensive for what they do, and lacking any Inv saves means they go squish pretty easily.
WLords - yeah, they look impressive, but their only W3 and very slow, and suck in CC if you can hit them with a unit that can hurt them (ie Hammerinators, 'Stealers, other MCs etc)

@Skinnattittar - I've disagree that there an easy army to do well with - certianly Mech or Jetlock can be a bit point and click, but Guardian Mobs do not do very well generaly (I think we all know the expection to this). I think Wraithwall suffers vs Mech, as its a very slow list, and has little CC potentail in its wraith units and their short range shooting (on the Wguard)

No, eldar are by no means over powered. We pay the points and get what we pay for.
The Warithlord is good, yes, but it's not a close combat monster. Most units with a non-independent character with a powerfist will take him down. There's lots of las cannons and missile launchers in the game and he suffers from wraith sight. The Phoenix lods are very over priced for what they can do. They are not bad as such, but except for Eldrad they are not worth their price

That's the thing about Eldar. Everything has to support everything else, without a lot of synergy the army just falls apart. If I remember right, Space Wolves are currently the OP codex, as for BA we'll have to wait a bit more after their release.

'Overpowered' is spelt wrong, so is 'Eldar'...that's 2/3 words in the title, dude.
The topic itself isn't that useful as well.

Nothing is overpowered and nothing is cheese. "'Overpowered'/'Cheese' is the cry of the unprepared."

Maybe they got outplayed? Maybe the dice sucked or were really hot? Maybe the player screwed up so bad it was hard for the Eldar player to not smack the opponent around? Etc.

Does th OP mean OP as in over powered or OP as in over priced?

Seeing as how the thread title is "Eldar overpowered?" I'm pretty sure OP stands for "overpriced" in this instance

Sanctjud wrote:Nothing is overpowered and nothing is cheese.

I respectfully disagree.

But either way those 2 are definitely NOT OP.

@Mocok:
Did you not read the next part.

"Cheese is the cry of the unprepared."
If you are prepared, nothing is overpowered...it's seemingly overpowered because it's new or suprising to you and you are not exposed enough to it to know how to respond to it appropriately.

I remember running 42 spawn in a list...the Tau player called them cheese...now that is something you won't hear everyday, but it goes to show you... if you are unprepared for something, the kneejerk reaction is to cry cheese...at least that's how it is during my experiences with 40K.

Sanctjud wrote:
"Cheese is the cry of the unprepared."

QFT

Every army that wins against you is obviously overpowered, because otherwise your carefully chosen army lead by your supreme intellect would have won

wraithsight which happens at the worst of times, and the fact that almost nothing else in the list is over T3 make Eldar hard to play, and beatable by noobs with space marines :(
defiantely not overpowered, in my opinion.
although its fair to say i am pretty rubbish at it anyway

erik..

yes, we all know how overpowered a 200pts meele char without an inv save can be...

I am rock.

Scissors is working as intended.

Please nerf paper.

My buddy is an excellent general, whether he plays Eldar, Orks, or Space Marines.

The only Eldar I have played are his. I have 1 full victory, 1 minor victory, 1 tie, and at least 6 losses against him. I can't keep count of them all.

I can't say that Eldar are overpowered or not, but I can say that playing his army is always difficult.

Kroothawk wrote:Every army that wins against you is obviously overpowered, because otherwise your carefully chosen army lead by your supreme intellect would have won

SlimPickens wrote: I am rock.

Scissors is working as intended.

Please nerf paper.

Both QFT.

SlimPickens, you'll fit in nicely here

Reminds me of World of Rogucraft...

Sanctjud wrote:Reminds me of World of Rogucraft...

Which was followed by world of Warlockcraft.
Which was followed by world of Pallycraft.
Which was followed by world of Deathknightcraft.
Which was followed by... (I don't actually know, I quit (for unrelated issues to game balance))

People will always complain. Slimpickens got it absolutely correct.

Sanctjud wrote:@Mocok:
Did you not read the next part.

"Cheese is the cry of the unprepared."
If you are prepared, nothing is overpowered...it's seemingly overpowered because it's new or suprising to you and you are not exposed enough to it to know how to respond to it appropriately.

Tell that to WHFB players.. Tell them that they loose to daemons because they are "unprepared"..

I'm not saying that everything is ZOMG WTF? IMBAAA OP!!! but saying that there are NO overpowered things at all is just not right. Just like saying that there are no underpowered things.


On the topic: No, those 2 are not OP. Like others pointed out:
WL have just 2A, their weapons twin-link when taken in doubles, have no inv save and are so huge it's not that easy to get a cover saves.
PL are just so expensive it hurts. I can have almost full squad of Dire Avengers (plus fully equipped Ex) AND a unit of 3 bikes for a price of 1 guy. If he can't be as useful as space puppy on another space puppy. No thank you.

Macok wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:@Mocok:
Did you not read the next part.

"Cheese is the cry of the unprepared."
If you are prepared, nothing is overpowered...it's seemingly overpowered because it's new or suprising to you and you are not exposed enough to it to know how to respond to it appropriately.

Tell that to WHFB players.. Tell them that they loose to daemons because they are "unprepared"..

I'm not saying that everything is ZOMG WTF? IMBAAA OP!!! but saying that there are NO overpowered things at all is just not right. Just like saying that there are no underpowered things.


On the topic: No, those 2 are not OP. Like others pointed out:
WL have just 2A, their weapons twin-link when taken in doubles, have no inv save and are so huge it's not that easy to get a cover saves.
PL are just so expensive it hurts. I can have almost full squad of Dire Avengers (plus fully equipped Ex) AND a unit of 3 bikes for a price of 1 guy. If he can't be as useful as space puppy on another space puppy. No thank you.

If you go to a Fantasy tourney unprepared to deal with Daemons you deserve exactly what you get. And yes, unprepared here includes using a book that can't compete with Daemons. It's all about realistic expectations. Don't expect your Orges list to beat Daemons. It's setting up for disappointment.

@Macok:

Then it's dice, if nobody ever wins vs. WFB Deamons then I will agree, but I thought this was the 40K boards .

There are no underpowered things...it's generally a cost issue.

I've used Lesser Daemons, Spawn, Possessed, Plasma Pistol Zerkers, Wingless Princes and rapid fire Raptors to good use...and they are supposedly the underpowered stuff...

Minor correction: Wraithlords have 3 wounds.
-Edit: completely misread 2A as 2W, my bad

Sanctjud wrote:@Macok:

Then it's dice, if nobody ever wins vs. WFB Deamons then I will agree, but I thought this was the 40K boards .

There are no underpowered things...it's generally a cost issue.

So, if a space marine would cost 1 point it wouldn't be OP because it would be "cost issue"? Point cost can't be just put aside like that.
When dice are taken under consideration there are no 100% victors. But come on. We don't live in a fairy tale land, and nothing is just black or white. Board games aren't 100% balanced. There are some thing more powerful than others. Some more and some less.

Oh yeah.. And WoW is sooo wh40k

Sanctjud wrote:Minor correction: Wraithlords have 3 wounds.

And no one said anything about 3W..

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:If you go to a Fantasy tourney unprepared to deal with Daemons you deserve exactly what you get. And yes, unprepared here includes using a book that can't compete with Daemons. It's all about realistic expectations. Don't expect your Orges list to beat Daemons. It's setting up for disappointment.

If you want to say that some things are not OverPowered, it's the everything else that is UnderPowered that's fine by me.. Same thing just from other perspective.. Just when majority is in the UP place it's not good..


I just don't like words like "never" and "nothing"

I've corrected the Wounds line, my bad.

I just don't like words like "never" and "nothing"

Funny:

nothing is just black or white

Things are shades of grey much like your dislike of "nothing" and yet using it beforehand .

So, if a space marine would cost 1 point it wouldn't be OP because it would be "cost issue"? Point cost can't be just put aside like that.

But, they don't cost 1 point.
SM are costed appropiately...no issues.
Plague Marines are a point under while Possessed/LDs/Spawn are more than one point overcosted.

Their rules sets are still functional...just exensive for it. The rules are not broken, it's just the points cost.
I can the flip side where the points 'could' be fine if the rules change, but it's just easier to change the points costs than the rules set.

There are some thing more powerful than others. Some more and some less.

And when you take everythig into account it balances out and you deal with gak like it's always been dealt with.

/shrug. It is a Complete and total information available game...there is nothing that that can't be anticipated and everything has counters...whether it be units/list/deployment/tactics/blah. There is no cheese when it's available to everyone to use or browse through and see how it ticks.

Ex. Seer Council... Fortune fails, boom, the gak hits the fan.
Jaws and Lash... meching up mitigates it and makes it largely wasted the first half of the game...easy.
Nob Bikers: PBS, str 8 variety, counter charging Asstermy equivalents and sacrificial unit usage.
Necron Phalanx was the cry of the past, it doesn't show up any more.
What else is there?
Biker lists: focus fire, keep to terrain, stay higher in terrain...etc, etc, etc.

Oh yeah.. And WoW is sooo wh40k

Whoa whoa there, my post there was directed towards the Rock, Paper, Scissor thing... look up World of Roguecraft on youtube if you don't believe me... and that is the extent of that post.

Plords are overpriced and wraithguard are only powerful in very small games.

We're going a *bit* Offtopic here so let's start to end this conversation..

Sanctjud wrote:Things are shades of grey much like your dislike of "nothing" and yet using it beforehand .

I said I didn't like it, not that I don't use it (or 'never' use it )

Sanctjud wrote:Their rules sets are still functional...just exensive for it. The rules are not broken, it's just the points cost.
I can the flip side where the points 'could' be fine if the rules change, but it's just easier to change the points costs than the rules set.

I think we started talking about two slightly different things. Not so important anyway I guess.

Sanctjud wrote:Whoa whoa there, my post there was directed towards the Rock, Paper, Scissor thing... look up World of Roguecraft on youtube if you don't believe me... and that is the extent of that post.

And my post that Daemons are very unbalanced was directed towards something too. What's the difference? And I do believe you, btw..


Again, I think we talk about different things - you're talking mainly about WH40k, I was saying about whole board gaming in general. If you ask me if there are unstoppable OP things in WH40k I'd say no. If there are OP things elsewhere? Sure there are..

Plords are overpriced and wraithguard are only powerful in very small games.

The question was about Wraith Lords not Wraith Guard.

SlimPickens wrote: I am rock.

Scissors is working as intended.

Please nerf paper.

The fact that this is true is indicative of the quality of 40k. I don't know about anyone else but generally I expect a tactical game to consist of more than rock-paper-scissors, which is what 40k devolves into if both sides don't take all-comer lists.

To me, an army is cheesy if it is knowingly built to conform to the rock-paper-scissors paradigm. It will massacre one type of army, get massacred by another type, and in doing so will ensure that every game requires no skill or thought, instead consisting of praying that your opponents army falls into the former category.

Well, then there is also the issue that Eldar have many lists that are competently both Rock and Scissors. So while part of their list might get eaten by Paper, the majority of their list will mangle Paper.

The convincing fact for me is that Eldar do consistently well in games. True, they don't always "win" but I don't often see them lose, regardless of their opponent and owning player. I have seen one of our fresher players with an Eldar list he had never used before go against an extremely competent Ork player (in fact one of our better players) with a strong Ork list. Long story short, the green player had little difficulty neutering the Ork player's army, and even though they weren't crushing, in the last turn he rushed the objectives with Troops and took the game hands down.