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Since the other cool thread about this subject was closed I wanted to keep the dialog open. I play nids. I wanted to comment on this

"Vs Tyranids (Carnifexes), Yeah.. it is pretty sad-face.. but only really vs tervigons & carnifexes. "

Not all true, pyros, hive guard, lets not forget my tyrannofex and spores. Basically extremely painful!

What are your thoughts on the SW JOTWW?

24" of MC death! No armor save. No "T" rolls. No INVULs. No LOS. No cover. Multiple unit hits. arrgh!

Byte wrote:Since the other cool thread got closed I wanted to keep the dialog open. I play nids. I wanted to comment on this

"Vs Tyranids (Carnifexes), Yeah.. it is pretty sad-face.. but only really vs tervigons & carnifexes. "

Not all true, pyros, hive guard, and spores. Basically extremely painful!

What are your thoughts on the SW JOTWW? 24" of MC death! No armor save. No "T" rolls. No INVULs. arrgh!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
lets not forget my tyrannofex!

Can Zoans still take Shadow of the Warp? If so, DS a couple to cack the Wolf Priest.

It's a ridiculous power.

Any mechanic that bypasses so much of the standard mechanics of the game is always going to be suspect. Some abilities let you pick out specific models within units. Some abilities bypass armour saves. Some bypass cover saves. Some bypass invulnerable saves. Some bypass rolls to Wound. Some bypass to-Hit rolls. Some kill regardless of the number of Wounds a model has. And a very few let you hit multiple units. There's no more than a few abilities in the game that bypass more than one of these mechanics - the C'Tan weapon on the Callidus, force weapons, maybe one or two more. Even those only bypass two of these mechanics. Now JotWW bypasses all of them.

Some will no doubt make incisive arguments such as 'its fine n00b you just have to play betr lol'. They may even make genius statements such as 'sounds like someone doesn't know how to dominate at this game'. I've played JotWW armies. 40K is a sufficiently well-balanced game that you can still win even with such powers in it. That does not make it fine, or balanced, or okay.

Yes, it doesn't affect tanks. Big deal. An ability that essentially requires a certain style of list to negate it, a style of list that some armies don't even have, is suspect at best, and ridiculous more often than not. It's not an insta-win - nothing in 40K is. That doesn't make it okay.

I agree, it's one of the worst mistakes in the game right now.

The issue I have with it is that it's so "rocks paper scissors." Against some lists it's fairly useless. Against others, it's an auto win.

If you've got a list with Tervigons in it (for example), and the other guys brings JOTWW, you just lost.

That's not fun for anybody.

There are some things GW can't control. They can't control if there are some really ridiculous rolls, and one guy just can't win the game for all the bad luck. That's generally not fun for either player, but it happens. However, by putting in a rule that just totally breaks the game mechanics, and totally demolishes SOME armies, they've written an unfun game right into the rules.

It's unacceptable, and it amazes me that Phil Kelly is responsible for it.

Mortified Penguin wrote:

Byte wrote:Since the other cool thread got closed I wanted to keep the dialog open. I play nids. I wanted to comment on this

"Vs Tyranids (Carnifexes), Yeah.. it is pretty sad-face.. but only really vs tervigons & carnifexes. "

Not all true, pyros, hive guard, and spores. Basically extremely painful!

What are your thoughts on the SW JOTWW? 24" of MC death! No armor save. No "T" rolls. No INVULs. arrgh!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
lets not forget my tyrannofex!

Can Zoans still take Shadow of the Warp? If so, DS a couple to cack the Wolf Priest.

Yes, its standard on synapse creatures. 12" 3d6 opponent LD test for psy attempts, perils on double 1's or 6's. The rub is their little Rune weapons negate enemy(my) psychic powers on 4+. The character negates on 3+. So no Warp blast :(

I just glad I'm not the only one with the same opinions. I'm working on counters.

Phryxis wrote:I agree, it's one of the worst mistakes in the game right now.

The issue I have with it is that it's so "rocks paper scissors." Against some lists it's fairly useless. Against others, it's an auto win.

If you've got a list with Tervigons in it (for example), and the other guys brings JOTWW, you just lost.

That's not fun for anybody.

There are some things GW can't control. They can't control if there are some really ridiculous rolls, and one guy just can't win the game for all the bad luck. That's generally not fun for either player, but it happens. However, by putting in a rule that just totally breaks the game mechanics, and totally demolishes SOME armies, they've written an unfun game right into the rules.

It's unacceptable, and it amazes me that Phil Kelly is responsible for it.

I disagree. Playing games where i take down a tervigon, a carnifex, and a swarmlord (basically by luck) in one game with one model QUITE fun for me.

I fail to see how it "breaks" game mechanics. Seeing the new tyranids codex, I would rarely take most of the expensive models anyways, as they'll just kneel down to moderate plasma fire. Stock up on Zoanthropes and hit the rune priest with a field of shadows and he'll fail miserably.

I suppose if you can knock out a high percentage of your opponents army on a 66% die roll chance is entertaining, then I suppose you are right. Personally I am finding it getting rather repetitive in AARs, to the point there is no skill other than the ability to roll dice. The skill lies with the Tyranid player if he can grab a draw or a win.

The Tyranid performance at Adepticon was to all intents and purposes rather sad for the latest 5th edition codex. I do not think it is the players but the rules. Anyway, with the dominance of SW and IG I suppose this is the way of the new GW. BA seems to continue the imperial drive. I do prefer the Tyranid models though and at the club level the differences are less pronounced.
Jaws is useless against some armies and a real game winner against some. Does it matter? Only if both players are concerned that the game is enjoyable for both, not just for one. Is it an interesting challenge to overcome such armies with Jaws or an IG mech force, yes! The challenge is for the Tyranid player not for the opponent. The SW players is expected to win, so the SW focus is to prevent the opponent from winning as his win is expected. Same is true of IG mech to a large extent too. Frankly for me, I would not want to run an army in which avoiding losing is more the focus than winning as winning is the norm.

Player's choice of course.

horsa wrote:I suppose if you can knock out a high percentage of your opponents army on a 66% die roll chance is entertaining, then I suppose you are right. Personally I am finding it getting rather repetitive in AARs, to the point there is no skill other than the ability to roll dice. The skill lies with the Tyranid player if he can grab a draw or a win.

The Tyranid performance at Adepticon was to all intents and purposes rather sad for the latest 5th edition codex. I do not think it is the players but the rules. Anyway, with the dominance of SW and IG I suppose this is the way of the new GW. BA seems to continue the imperial drive. I do prefer the Tyranid models though and at the club level the differences are less pronounced.
Jaws is useless against some armies and a real game winner against some. Does it matter? Only if both players are concerned that the game is enjoyable for both, not just for one. Is it an interesting challenge to overcome such armies with Jaws or an IG mech force, yes! The challenge is for the Tyranid player not for the opponent. The SW players is expected to win, so the SW focus is to prevent the opponent from winning as his win is expected. Same is true of IG mech to a large extent too. Frankly for me, I would not want to run an army in which avoiding losing is more the focus than winning as winning is the norm.

Player's choice of course.

I sympathise with the Nid players here, since going from "Big bugs are the only way to play" to "Big bugs suck" no doubt shafted a lot of players, but I guess the only real way to counter Jaws of the World Furry is either to run horde tyranids or just build the cheesiest list imaginable and take the hit to comp. Mind you, I have no idea what the hard units are in the new codex, so this is just conjecture.

I'm going to attempt to drop a hive tyrant with wings right near the silly rune priest and do my best before they (usually two of the lunchables) zap my army to shreds...

Byte wrote:I'm going to attempt to drop a hive tyrant with wings right near the silly rune priest and do my best before they (usually two of the lunchables) zap my army to shreds...

And when the HT eats a gabillion TL Plasma shots before the RP casts, what good will it be?

A week ago my friends Cato Sicarius was able to take down my Abbadon and an unit of 10 terminators over the course of the game, and I was fine with it because it was mainly luck on his part. Another game different guys JotWW RP killed 3 Wraithlords and an Avatar, and I wasn't fine because other than my avatars roll neither of us had any particularly bad or good luck. See its just a completely weird power it can kill anything and everything in a 24" line. Also I wonder why the paranoid warp-fearing Space Puppies have better Warp powers than Chaos the guys who live in the warp and the Eldar who are masters of the warp, spend their entire lives studing it, haved tamed it, were their before it was created, and are wearing socks that are older than the EMprah.

Clearly Jaws was either not properly play tested or it was designed as a broken element in the first place. Personally I think it really was an idea that did not get enough testing to show how bad it really was. There are examples in most codices but most are not so over the top or there is some counter to it. For myself the easy solution is to ask the SW player to take a different power or simply ask him to play someone else. A reasonable option that leaves the decision up to the SW player.

The problem for us is that in spite of the continued issues that many players have with GW as a company, we continue to buy their models. An individual decision. Myself, I have stopped buying GW until I get a better idea of where these codices are going. BA is another codex with a lot of hype and a lot of potential game breakers. Maybe there are none, we will see. If BA take its place with SW and IG as the go to armies to win tournaments, then I think it will be time to pack up my models until version 6. I have no idea where this game is going as each of the imperial codices tries to outdo the previous one in being over the top. This is especially true with the individual characters. How they will top this in 6th remains a mystery. It will take a lot though to beat DS Land Raiders!

Unless Tyranids are given a real overhaul in the FAQ, very unlikely, they are beginning to look like they are out of the top tournament circuit until 6th edition at least.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Byte wrote:I'm going to attempt to drop a hive tyrant with wings right near the silly rune priest and do my best before they (usually two of the lunchables) zap my army to shreds...

And when the HT eats a gabillion TL Plasma shots before the RP casts, what good will it be?

Well first off, thanks for your encouragement! Hive tyrant with wings was a very bad idea btw.

I deep striked my Trygon and containment spined him to death today. Of course after the jump pack equipped RP killed a Trannofex, two Zoans, two hive guard, and a spore. OBTW the Trygon did get melta'd to death in his shooting phase. I'm just glad I killed the RP.

Perhaps if the victory conditions were changed to that of - The Tyranid player wins if he kills the RP!

I want GW to print a FAQ that gives me permission to smash the RP model with a hammer, if the owner chooses to take JotWW

I want people to stop whining about JotWW.

Byte wrote:Since the other cool thread got closed I wanted to keep the dialog open. I play nids. I wanted to comment on this

"Vs Tyranids (Carnifexes), Yeah.. it is pretty sad-face.. but only really vs tervigons & carnifexes. "

Not all true, pyros, hive guard, and spores. Basically extremely painful!

What are your thoughts on the SW JOTWW? 24" of MC death! No armor save. No "T" rolls. No INVULs. arrgh!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
lets not forget my tyrannofex!

Woo, stealth quote

24" range means 1 potentially dead model, max. Closer rangers which gives the JotWW more targets also allows for closer engagement ranges. Yeah, Shadow in the warp should play a big factor. In addition, JotWW needs support. That support needs support. Cripple the baby-sitting rhino squads or engage in close combat or penalize their psykers with 3D6 Ld rolls. Oh, another thing. He will be fielding 5-man squads in rhino's. His troops will either be MSU (efficient as grey hunters can compete with a 24" ranged ability with no heavies) or he will be wasting points & firepower. Your troops will beat his. Yeah you will loose MC's. Genestealers have very high I.. Go you! Etc etc.

Basically.. react and respond accordingly. I do indeed plan to field quite a few meltaguns. Ap1 & 2d6 armour penetration gets my tank kills in an edition where tanks are far more potent. It works for me, I do not get steam rolled by tanks. Do likewise.

As for complaining about t-fexes.. If a player ever managed to get a rhino-rune priest within 24" of a properly equipped t-fex.. Your doing it wrong. If a drop-pod lands nearby to your t-fex with a runepriest + squad.. then it should be easily decimated next turn which means he spent 100+35+75 minimum to kill your t-fex (and that wouldn't happen as to put such a minimal squad inside a valuble 1st turn drop pod is a waste) so your now equal points if the Pod-squad is reasonable in size. Give & take.

Build with other people's list in mind... If my meta has a lot of fast assaulting armies, I am not going to build a gunline army that hopes my opponent never reaches me.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:I want people to stop whining about JotWW.

Yes!! It's not that bad! I thought that Nids were really strong against psychic powers.

Besides there are other things to complain about, like taxes...

And this is why I love playing Mech IG...even if he pops my stuff, the troops inside I don't care about.

horsa wrote:Perhaps if the victory conditions were changed to that of - The Tyranid player wins if he kills the RP!

Yes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alerian wrote:I want GW to print a FAQ that gives me permission to smash the RP model with a hammer, if the owner chooses to take JotWW

even better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:

Byte wrote:Since the other cool thread got closed I wanted to keep the dialog open. I play nids. I wanted to comment on this

"Vs Tyranids (Carnifexes), Yeah.. it is pretty sad-face.. but only really vs tervigons & carnifexes. "

Not all true, pyros, hive guard, and spores. Basically extremely painful!

What are your thoughts on the SW JOTWW? 24" of MC death! No armor save. No "T" rolls. No INVULs. arrgh!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
lets not forget my tyrannofex!

Woo, stealth quote

24" range means 1 potentially dead model, max. Closer rangers which gives the JotWW more targets also allows for closer engagement ranges. Yeah, Shadow in the warp should play a big factor. In addition, JotWW needs support. That support needs support. Cripple the baby-sitting rhino squads or engage in close combat or penalize their psykers with 3D6 Ld rolls. Oh, another thing. He will be fielding 5-man squads in rhino's. His troops will either be MSU (efficient as grey hunters can compete with a 24" ranged ability with no heavies) or he will be wasting points & firepower. Your troops will beat his. Yeah you will loose MC's. Genestealers have very high I.. Go you! Etc etc.

Basically.. react and respond accordingly. I do indeed plan to field quite a few meltaguns. Ap1 & 2d6 armour penetration gets my tank kills in an edition where tanks are far more potent. It works for me, I do not get steam rolled by tanks. Do likewise.

As for complaining about t-fexes.. If a player ever managed to get a rhino-rune priest within 24" of a properly equipped t-fex.. Your doing it wrong. If a drop-pod lands nearby to your t-fex with a runepriest + squad.. then it should be easily decimated next turn which means he spent 100+35+75 minimum to kill your t-fex (and that wouldn't happen as to put such a minimal squad inside a valuble 1st turn drop pod is a waste) so your now equal points if the Pod-squad is reasonable in size. Give & take.

Enemy RP deployed at 12" w/jump pack jumps 12 inches. With 24" Jaws thats pretty much touching my back field. News for ya. Thats every model touched by the "line" for 24". Also, the Tfex has assault 2 BS 3 Rupture cannon. I can't control misses or ones on the pen roll. The only thing Im doing wrong is not using loaded dice apparently. Come on man, be sensible.

Not only does JotWW become the most potent anti-MC weapon, it also hoses dreadnoughts/walkers left and right.
Positioned properly, a JotWW will still eat 2/3 Killa Kans in the mob on a 3+.

Not to mention Orks have little in the way of anti-psyker defense as it is.

In_Theory wrote:Not only does JotWW become the most potent anti-MC weapon, it also hoses dreadnoughts/walkers left and right.
Positioned properly, a JotWW will still eat 2/3 Killa Kans in the mob on a 3+.

Not to mention Orks have little in the way of anti-psyker defense as it is.

It doesnt work on vehicles, so killa cans and dreads are safe.

faced it once at adepticon. I made both my checks then destroyed the rp in h2h

Jaws won't do much to a nid list that is heavy on Tyranid warriors. In the Shadow of the War will be everywhere, and the warriors are far from an ideal target for jaws.

A large number of CC warriors would also rock space puppies in CC.

Snaad wrote:
It doesnt work on vehicles, so killa cans and dreads are safe.

If that's the case, then I need to have a word with a space-pup player......

He said it was anything with initiative, which didn't work against tanks and vehicles without the initiative, but dreads could be sucked up.
Ugh.

Tell him to read Jaws to you, ask him what a killa kan is... ask him again what jaws does not effect, ask him what a kan is...

If he answers a walker, show him with your codex that it is a Vehicle, walker... ask him what he can not effect... if he has yet to get the fact that he cannot effect vehicles period then reuse to play him...

skkipper wrote:faced it once at adepticon. I made both my checks then destroyed the rp in h2h

This is what I'm talking about!

I'm not saying that JOTWOWW is so incredibly terribly amazingly overpowered...

What I'm saying, is that it's so incredibly rocks-paper-scissor, it's just not fun.

The game is fun when every single battle is even, hard fought, and players are rewarded for playing well.

The game is not fun when things are decided before the game even starts.

Now, I'm not saying that JOTWOWW does exactly that, but it does that a whole lot more than virtually anything else in the entire game. JOTWOWW says that if you're playing with TMCs, you just lost.

I realize there are strategies to try to mitigate it, but let's not be ridiculous... It's so tailor made to destroy TMCs, than any list that brings them is basically screwed.

It's also very "polarized" in its behavior. There's very few things in the game that can do so much with so few dice rolls. For example, one time I faced it, the guy shot it at my Pedro Kantor. I had a Psychic Hood, it failed to stop it. It hit Pedro, he failed his check, dead. Basically a no brainer Ld check, and two rolls, and he's just put away a 180 point model from 24" away.

I'm not saying it's "too powerful" as the odds of killing Pedro are still fairly low. What I'm saying is that it tends to either do nothing, or completely change the game. A power like that makes it more about dice, and less about playing smart, and that's just not fun.

May I remind some people that there existed a character that by being within 18" of results in your IC turning into a squig about as often as a TMC gets removed off the board...

Personally If I knew my opponent was using jaws I would just position my TMC in a way that he could only hit one a turn, or just keep them away from the RP (the offending target must be within 24" to be the target of this psychic shooting attack or be directly behind someone that is).

As other people said, use warriors to destroy the RP...