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Well, Dakkites (or is it Dakkians?) more questions for how things work. Both of these question came up in a tourney at a local store today, in the final round on the top table. Obviously, I was one of the players in the game, so I'll try to post these without bias of how I believe they should work. Sorry for the crappy layout pictures.

Scenario 1

Blue and Yellow are from Player A's force, and Red is from Player B's. Red is trying to assault yellow and double assault to blue. The distance from red to yellow is about 5.5". Player A contests that red will need to stay an inch from blue on the first model, and if that first model can still reach, red can then double assault. Player B contends that the stay 1" away from enemy models is ignored in the assault phase as long as you end up assaulted to all the models that you are within 1" of.

Staying 1" off of blue is not possible for red, as that will likely push it to more than 6", and cause a failed charge.

Thoughts?

Scenario 2
How exactly is the 1" from enemy models done when resolving skimmers to infantry models? The BRB says that you must be 1" from enemy models, and that large vehicles use the hull to determine where the vehicle is. Where do you measure to get to the 1" on an enemy model? Do you measure to the model's body, the model's base, or to a cylinder the size of the base and as tall as the models head (since a model occupies the area of it's base)? Obviously, skimmers are farther from the ground than normal non based models, and have irregular angles on some sides.

This comes from a skimmer that used star engines in the last turn to contest an objective. Due to the enemy models that were surrounding it, staying 1" from the enemies' bases would have been easy, staying 1" away from the enemies' bodies would have been difficult, staying 1" away from the cylinder would have been impossible. Also bear in mind that this was the last turn, the one major objective, and drastically affects the outcome of the overall tourney as it was the top table.

Thoughts?

is this a threeway fight right?

If thats the case, you can assault x and y will be assaulted too.

skimmers, like all normal non walker tanks are never truely in comba, as they cannot fight back, so they never count for 1" rule.

skimmers are always measured from the base.

for some units (gretchin) it would make it impossible to fight.

hope this helps, that I might be wrong.

Nope, two way fight. Blue and yellow are from the same side, just different units. (edited for clarification on main post.)

According to the BRB, ALL enemy models have a 1" bubble you can't get into. In addition, skimmers are measured to the hull, unless your assaulting, in which case you CAN hit the base, but you don't have to. You can hit the hull instead if you wish, and it is closer.

then your assaulting two units.

as a gerneral rule, you only have to stay an inch away if it's a normal move, run or consolidatory move.

it's stupid though. in the end, that extra squad is gonna be combating you with a PILE IN! move anyway.

thegreyman wrote:Well, Dakkites (or is it Dakkians?) more questions for how things work. Both of these question came up in a tourney at a local store today, in the final round on the top table. Obviously, I was one of the players in the game, so I'll try to post these without bias of how I believe they should work. Sorry for the crappy layout pictures.

Scenario 1

Red is trying to assault yellow and double assault to blue. The distance from red to yellow is about 5.5". Player A contests that red will need to stay an inch from blue on the first model, and if that first model can still reach, red can then double assault. Player B contends that the stay 1" away from enemy models is ignored in the assault phase as long as you end up assaulted to all the models that you are within 1" of.

Staying 1" off of blue is not possible for red, as that will likely push it to more than 6", and cause a failed charge.

Thoughts?

If the first assaulting model in red can reach yellow, then the rest can go where they like, to blue or yellow. But, more to the point, the 1" away from enemy models is ignored when moving into assault, per page 34 of the BGB, under Moving Assaulting Models. Also, further clarification (if you need it) is on the same page, further down under Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units. Moreover, the only caveat of proximity when it comes to assaults and enemy units are at the end of the first paragraph under Moving Assaulting Models: "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting." You can be within 1" of any enemy model, even ones you're not assaulting, so long as you're not touching them.

thegreyman wrote:Scenario 2
How exactly is the 1" from enemy models done when resolving skimmers to infantry models? The BRB says that you must be 1" from enemy models, and that large vehicles use the hull to determine where the vehicle is. Where do you measure to get to the 1" on an enemy model? Do you measure to the model's body, the model's base, or to a cylinder the size of the base and as tall as the models head (since a model occupies the area of it's base)? Obviously, skimmers are farther from the ground than normal non based models, and have irregular angles on some sides.

This comes from a skimmer that used star engines in the last turn to contest an objective. Due to the enemy models that were surrounding it, staying 1" from the enemies' bases would have been easy, staying 1" away from the enemies' bodies would have been difficult, staying 1" away from the cylinder would have been impossible. Also bear in mind that this was the last turn, the one major objective, and drastically affects the outcome of the overall tourney as it was the top table.

Thoughts?

I would imagine you measure to the base of the enemy models. If someone is carrying a lascannon, you don't measure to the muzzle of the lascannon and say "oop! You're within 1"!" You measure from the Skimmer hull to the base of the model in question.

thegreyman wrote:Scenario 1
Player A contests that red will need to stay an inch from blue on the first model, and if that first model can still reach, red can then double assault. Player B contends that the stay 1" away from enemy models is ignored in the assault phase as long as you end up assaulted to all the models that you are within 1" of.

Neither of these is correct, sorry.

The rules for moving charging models (page 34) over-ride the usual rule on not being able to move within 1" of enemy models. You're simply not allowed to move into base contact with an enemy that you're not assaulting.

So you can move your first model on just fine, and everyone else can assault either unit, provided that coherency is maintained.

Scenario 2
How exactly is the 1" from enemy models done when resolving skimmers to infantry models?

The rules for measuring distances (page 3) say to measure to and from the model's base (if it has one) or hull (if it doesn't).
The rules for skimmers (page 71, "Measuring Distances") say to ignore the skimmer's flight base for everything except assaulting it.

So you measure from the enemy model's base to the skimmer's hull.

I was player controlling blue and yellow dots.

I argued that since declared charge was on yellow dots he had to stay 1" away from blue dots til 2nd figure was moved, thus making it a multi charge.

Using page 34 of miserably written BRB as reference.

Captain Solon wrote:it's stupid though. in the end, that extra squad is gonna be combating you with a PILE IN! move anyway.

They only get to pile in if they were actually involved in the assault. If you only charged one of the units, the other would just stand there until they had the opportunity to charge in a subsequent turn.

If you engage models from both units, then both units get to move make a reaction move to get unengaged models into the fight. Not a Pile In, which happens at the end of the combat.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I was player controlling blue and yellow dots.

I argued that since declared charge was on yellow dots he had to stay 1" away from blue dots til 2nd figure was moved, thus making it a multi charge.

Using page 34 of miserably written BRB as reference.

That is incorrect. The 1" is ignored in the assault phase. The only restriction is that red couldn't be in base-to-base contact with blue if he wasn't assaulting them. He was assaulting them, so everything is legal.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I argued that since declared charge was on yellow dots he had to stay 1" away from blue dots til 2nd figure was moved, thus making it a multi charge.

Using page 34 of miserably written BRB as reference.

Page 34 specifically says that you don't have to stay 1" away from other models when charging. "Moving Assaulting Models" - first sentence.

I accept that, as I read it. It wasn't so clear in heat of battle. It's moot point as I eventually won the HtH over couse of 1.5 game turns.


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On this topic of skimmer to base measurement.

I have wave serpent on clear flyer base with longest stick provided. Do I measure for skimmer hull to base of enemy model, ignoring mass of figure on base?

insaniak wrote:
The rules for measuring distances (page 3) say to measure to and from the model's base (if it has one) or hull (if it doesn't).
The rules for skimmers (page 71, "Measuring Distances") say to ignore the skimmer's flight base for everything except assaulting it.

So you measure from the enemy model's base to the skimmer's hull.

So, to clarify, the skimmers could be literally fully over the other model, in fact touching the other model's upright body, as long as it is 1" off the enemies' base? That would mean that the only way to actually assault a skimmer would be to hit the flying base, since one base must hit the other for assault. This might mean a model couldn't actually fit under the skimmer, but would need to in order to attack the skimmer in hth. Pg 71 of the BRB says" The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, it's base or both." A base flat on the ground can never contact the hull, (since it's floating) so how could contact the hull?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 11 also states, " A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement or Shooting phase, this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase." Doesn't the wave serpent touching my model with it's fin or troop area count?

Is it the opinion that you must measure from skimmer hull to figure base, 3/8" off table, ignoring mass of figure on base?

Wouldn't this imply that for measuring ranges, non vehicles are flat disks while vehicles are boxes, and then for LOS, all models are entirely WYSIWYG? Far be it from me to suggest that GW has double standards, but still, how are infantry supposed to hit skimmers? For purposes of shooting it, your 3" closer than assault, cause my base is only 1/4" high? So that means that I may be able to fire a 6" gun at you and not be in range to charge, since i have to hit the base which is 3" farther away way under the vehicle?

What has got me going is the fact model's body mass sticks out so far that model covers more area than it's base permits. Examples Orks Dreads, kans, Tyranid warrior tails and guns.

RAW vs. RAI is taking a beating here.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I have wave serpent on clear flyer base with longest stick provided. Do I measure for skimmer hull to base of enemy model, ignoring mass of figure on base?

As I said, you measure from the model's base to the skimmer's hull.

thegreyman wrote:So, to clarify, the skimmers could be literally fully over the other model, in fact touching the other model's upright body, as long as it is 1" off the enemies' base?

Technically, yes.

Although it's conditional on which one moved to get there. The rules for skimmer movement specifically prohibit them from ending their movement on top of other models. But there is nothing stopping a model from moving underneath a skimmer, if it has sufficient clearance.

From my experience, though, most people don't actually play that way. Moving under skimmers is generally seen as a loophole, and players either include the base as a part of the model for all measurement purposes, or measure horiontally to the skimmer, including the column of empty space underneath as a part of the skimmer.

That would mean that the only way to actually assault a skimmer would be to hit the flying base, since one base must hit the other for assault. This might mean a model couldn't actually fit under the skimmer, but would need to in order to attack the skimmer in hth. Pg 71 of the BRB says" The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, it's base or both." A base flat on the ground can never contact the hull, (since it's floating) so how could contact the hull?

That's correct. By the rules, it's technically impossible to assault most skimmers.

The norm is to just move the models as close as possible to it, if the base can't be reached.

Page 11 also states, " A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement or Shooting phase, this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase." Doesn't the wave serpent touching my model with it's fin or troop area count?

It does... for two different reasons, depending on how you interpret 'touching'. If you take it to mean 'any part of the model touching' then touching any part of the serpent would indeed block the model from moving there. If you take it to refer to base contact (which is the usual way of determining 'touching' within the rules) then the fin touching the model isn't a problem by the rule you quoted isn't a problem, but the rule forbidding you from moving through another model will stop you from moving through a skimmer if parts of it are in the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thegreyman wrote:Wouldn't this imply that for measuring ranges, non vehicles are flat disks while vehicles are boxes, and then for LOS, all models are entirely WYSIWYG?

Pretty much, yes.

It may seem inconsistent, but my guess would be that it's done that way because vehicles of a given type vary far less in configuration than troops do. You can't really 'pose' a predator in different ways, so measuring from the hull is always going to be reasonably consistent.

The more or less infinite range of poses available to infantry models mean that measuring to any part of the model becomes problematic and open to all sorts of abuse from creative posing. Which is still somewhat of a problem under current rules, but they make that tradeoff because they like the visual aspect of true LOS.

insaniak wrote:

thegreyman wrote:So, to clarify, the skimmers could be literally fully over the other model, in fact touching the other model's upright body, as long as it is 1" off the enemies' base?

Technically, yes.

Although it's conditional on which one moved to get there. The rules for skimmer movement specifically prohibit them from ending their movement on top of other models. But there is nothing stopping a model from moving underneath a skimmer, if it has sufficient clearance.

The way I've always played is that the model moves in, until it's main body hits the skimmer or the base whichever comes first. This generally means we stop straight down from the skimmer's edge since the vehicle is rarely more than 1" off the ground, and most models are 1.5" high.

In this particular case, the skimmer was moving second, and MAY (I say this since it's now over 4 hours ago) have been over the Tyranid warrior.

So, Valkyries are really screwed. If you can't end your movement OVER another model, their huge wingspan drastically takes down movement areas for them. I can understand why the skimmer would not be able to stop over another model. Otherwise, a direct fire shot from a blast weapon could concievably score two direct hits on seperate vehicles (one on the valkyrie, and one on the sentinel below it).

This makes my head hurt, and I've been playing for a long time.

What is boiled down to...

I attempted to engage star engines to contest an objective, because the tails curled up and were within 1" of hull, I was denied the movement.

Well I can say from the TO of this tournament as well a the judge It was a very hard call on my part. It is good to know that I made the right call on first assault rule. It was very hard for me to make the call on the Skimmer as the BRB is very vague when it comes to what are a infantry model occupies in terms oh height. I made the ruling that the model took up the volume of its base to the head in a cylinder shape. The reason for this is back in forth the model had a height level and was considered a cylinder for area it took up. I think that almost anyway it was ruled would have made it so that the skimmer was within 1 inch, with the exception of measuring from the top of the base, which in my opinion makes little sense as any model must take up some horizontal space.

Ckilleen wrote:The reason for this is back in forth the model had a height level and was considered a cylinder for area it took up.

That was actually one of the most heavily debated topics in 4th edition. The 'magic cylinder' that you refer to didn't actually exist. Models had a height category that applied to shooting into or through area terrain and close combats. The rest of the time, they worked pretty much exactly as they did now, with measurement being to and from the nearest edge of the base.

I think that almost anyway it was ruled would have made it so that the skimmer was within 1 inch, with the exception of measuring from the top of the base, which in my opinion makes little sense as any model must take up some horizontal space.

It is how the rules work, though. The only time you measure from anything other than the model's base (for a model that has one) is when measuring between models on different floors in Ruins.

Fair enough on making the call, though. You had to rule one way or the other on the spot, so the main focus is on answering to the best of your ability and keeping the game moving. It's an issue that comes up a lot, so it's not like you're the only one to ever struggle with it.

insaniak wrote:It is Fair enough on making the call, though. You had to rule one way or the other on the spot, so the main focus is on answering to the best of your ability and keeping the game moving. It's an issue that comes up a lot, so it's not like you're the only one to ever struggle with it.

I accept the first ruling. It didn't matter as I ended up wiping gargoyles out. The second cylinder 4th edition type ruling was way out in left field. Game was on line with a ruling that hinged on a measurement of 1/4" determining whether or not movement could be done. TO attempted to call for a 4+ roll to resolve. My opponent declined to go with that option, citing he didn't want to resolve the game on a dice roll. Irony?

You could have made things even more interesting by claiming that you were tank shocking during the star engine movement.

Previously it had generally been considered that star engine movement was taken as a replacement for shooting and so was not normal movement, and couldnt be used to tank shock. But during some of the debate over the GW reinterpretation of ramming = tank shock some very good points were raised suggesting that star engine movement can be used to tank shock, and possibly even to ram.

Of course, you do have to declare the move as a tank shock move before you begin.


Sligggoth

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:What is boiled down to...

I attempted to engage star engines to contest an objective, because the tails curled up and were within 1" of hull, I was denied the movement.

To be fair, some part of the hull may have been over the base of that warrior as well.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:TO attempted to call for a 4+ roll to resolve. My opponent declined to go with that option, citing he didn't want to resolve the game on a dice roll. Irony?

Would YOU have been 100% happy with a 4+ roll? I always hate 4+ rolls for the one important thing, since one person is going to end up ticked off anyways. What's the difference between that and the TO making a ruling? The TO calling for a 4+ effectively makes him not responsible for rules disputes, although he is supposed to be the ultimate determiner? Instead he throws rules disputes into the hands of chance.

Sliggoth wrote:You could have made things even more interesting by claiming that you were tank shocking during the star engine movement.

Neither one of us thought that was possible, otherwise, it all would have been a moot point. I'd have been doing 1 to 2 death or glories to try to stop it tho... 6 to rend on one dice...

Each unit can only do one death or glory; one of the models in the vehicle's path can elect to make a death or glory, so its limited to one of the models that the vehicle would be coming into contact with.



Sliggoth

Yup, but there were two units involved. Same way on the other side of the table, two different models from two different units each tried a one auto hit, rend on a 6 chance, since I'd lose the objective anyways. Sad way to lose a 3 wound warrior and a genestealer, but them's the breaks!

Per BRB, page 3, Measuring distances.

"Figures are considered to occupy the area of the base. Vehicles and skimmers use their hull."


So all figures for proposes of measurement, are the thickness of their base, excluding vehicles and skimmers.

Not sure what you're getting at there.

The whole rule is that figures are considered to occupy the area of their base so you measure from the edge of the base.

Area is a 2-dimensional concept. All that that rule is saying is that the diameter of the base defines the model's footprint for measurement purposes.

I hate beating a dead horse, but just to make sure I got this...

If viewed directly from above, a skimmer can be .01" away from an enemy model, as long as the skimmers hull is physically at least 1" away from the physical base of the model.

The physical mass of model does not matter. What matters is length from hull of vehicle or base of model to base of enemy model, by shortest measurement, must be 1" or greater. The exception being when assaulting, as pointed out last night.

Reasoning behind it. Picture someone coming in with a monstrosity of a conversion, with junk hanging and pointing everywhere. It's physical size is similar to basketball, but it sits on 25 mm base. That piece could deny movement and be unbalanced to game play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Followup to this discussion...

Do the spines on front of hull of Eldar Wave Serpent count as part of hull? Do you include them when measuring from hull to base of enemy model? Or do you go with physical hull outline, ignoring trim and weapons hanging off vehicles?

OTOH, this problem arose from having the skimmer on a very high base, 3-4" as I recall.

Which means it may not have been within 3" of the objective anyway...