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After having used the Railhead next to an Ionhead and Broadsides for some time now, I'm starting to wonder if the Railhead is really worth the 180+ points I've been spending on it. With this platform, offensively I get a 12" move with a single BS4 S10 AP1 or S6 AP4 Large Blast shot and a built-in cover save at greater than 12". If I reduce my move to 6", I add 4 S5 AP5 shots that can go to a different target.

And that's it. That's ALL. I rarely use the Railgun's solid shot as I've found it to be unreliable compared to the Railguns on Broadsides, and I've still got plenty of S5 AP5 in the army. I'm just not seeing the point of spending this many points on the platform.

I think that the only value the Railhead would have is in a pure mech army, and even then it's iffy at best. I don't see fully mech Tau armies being able to bring the requisite amount of effective markerlights / firepower to the table to be really effective.

How are you finding the Railhead?

The guy I play against all the time uses the same set up as you.

I play chaos troops/ rhinos vindis. The Railheads are my main concern other than the broadsides (easy to stay in cover from).

But, saying that he has had alot more success with the ionheads tbh.

SO i'd say they're good but maybe not worth the points.

IMO

Railheads are anti-troop platforms. Move 12" fire a S6AP4 pie plate across the table. It will be hard to hit you. I started running 2 of these in a list and found it to be quite useful.

For anti-tank DO NOT count on the Railhead. Your Broadsides are your tank hunters along with piranhas. On a side note piranhas are great for blocking movement. 70-75 points per model and you have move flat out for a 4+ save. Stick on in front of a land raider then nail it with your broadsides. Follow up with a pie plate from your railhead.

I'm not sure what you normally face. Against nids and guard (and probably orks) the hammerhead is amazing. Genestealers die quickly along with most other troops.

Also, statistically a railhead with a disruption pod is one of the hardest vehicles to kill. As long as you don't maneuver into a place where you're between a rock and a hard place (or two carnifexes/space marines with lots of meltas) you'll be good.

Never underestimate the power of a pie plate!

In 4th ed, railheads were king. One of the best (if not the best tank in the game). In 5th ed, especially considering the point drops many items in the new 5th ed codexs have taken, the Railhead with SMS is just not worth the 180 points anymore. Its sad, but its suffering from outdated codex syndrome.

I don't get what you guys don't like. I would love to have a str10 twin-linked AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke in my space marine army. How is that not worth 180 points?

Its not twin linked

Can't you use markerlights to make it twinlinked? Or improve the accuracy somehow?

@Flavius: The Railgun on the hammerhead is not twin-linked.

@OP: Personally, I prefer burst cannons instead of SMS on my railheads. 2 extra shots and 10 points less, though 6" less range.


I think the strength 6, AP4 pie plate is a nice addition in most games I've been playing, though I've been playing against Orks alot lately. If I play two hammerheads, the 2nd one usually has the ion cannon. I've found it to be great at taking out rhinos that pop smoke.

Can't you use markerlights to make it twinlinked? Or improve the accuracy somehow?

You can use a markerlight to improve its BS to 5

What is rather fun is using Hammerhead Submunitions and Pathfinders to strip cover saves. Finish off units that your Broadsides de-meched.

Volkov wrote:

Can't you use markerlights to make it twinlinked? Or improve the accuracy somehow?

You can use a markerlight to improve its BS to 5

Thanks, let me rephrase:

I would love to have a str10 BS5 AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke in my space marine army. How is that not worth 180 points?

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Thanks, let me rephrase:

I would love to have a str10 BS5 AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke in my space marine army. How is that not worth 180 points?

We could just as easily say, "I would love to have AV14 tanks that carry around little men with 3+ invulnerable saves and can kill anything in close combat that they come up against."

We have railguns. We can kill your tanks but you auto-win close combat; it's a trade off.

Flavius Infernus, I find it not to be worth 180 points because for 285, I get three Broadsides with twin-linked Railguns that can split fire and have two shield drones. They are less mobile, but for those one or two "terrain shadow" areas where they can't see, I can use Piranhas or my Ionhead (which I do really like). The Hammerhead may be harder to kill, but it's relatively easy to keep from shooting each turn, whereas the Broadsides fire turn after turn.

Also, in your "180 points for all this stuff", you're counting Markerlights, so don't forget to include your costs (and opportunity costs) for this. To get BS5 with no cover save, you'd need four marker light hits. You simply can't get that with Sniper Drone Teams or Skyrays (not enough shots), so you're limited to Markerlight Drones (at BS3 and 30 points each, you're talking 240 points of drones) or Pathfinders (again at BS3, you'll need eight shots to average four hits, and at minimum it'll run you 176 points). So in reality, you'll need 356 points to get "str10 BS5 AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke", as you put it. And even then you're limited to the 36" range of the Markerlights.

Does it still seem worth it?

Well I had seriously thought about taking a lascannon-armed tac squad and Sicarius as a way to get a str10 long range shot into a space marine army. So that's about 400 points, but can't move or get BS5 or ignore cover.

Then you can get a str10 long shot into a guard army using a manticore for 160, so about the same, and able to ignore some cover and get multiple hits. Or a medusa for 130 (?) So that's probably the real bargain compared with a hammerhead, but still can't move 12" and shoot or have a way to ignore cover.

So it sounds comparable to me. Especially with a manticore that can get more hits, but has a lower BS and doesn't have disruption pods.

If you're comparing broadsides and hammerheads, I think that's a different debate.

Overall I think the broadsides are more efficient and hard to stop shooting, but railheads bring the mobility and durability. Hrm.

I'm disinclined to see the negation of Railheads. Necron players rely on the far less stable Heavy Destroyer to get the job done and still manage (though point cost aren't comparable there). I guess my question is, at what point level are you playing these hammerheads?

I'll stick to 145pts for st10 ap2 pie plate, with ignore shaken and stunned. Vindi FTW.

In my last game against Tau my possessed vindi didn't get into 24" range before being blown up by Railguns with marker light/negate my smoke save support.

I just hide them up and use them as lane protectors.

Not alot gets to any of the objectives with 2 pie plates waiting for them!

AP1 and 72" is worth way more than 35points extra when considering hammerheads vs. Vindicators. Also vindicators usually also have to choose between being AR13 or shooting, since they can't do both. Also also, even BS4 single shot is probably more accurate than BS4 templates when shooting at vehicles (though that's hard to quantify).

But I don't play Tau, so I'm just speaking from experience of playing against Tau. Hammerheads always seem to kill my rhinos dead, but broadsides don't scare me because I always have some kind of fast/outflanking unit that can tarpit them in assault after their first shot or two.

72" is worthless unless you're playing on some really odd tables.

I always run a hammerhead in 1000+ pt games, I've been experimenting with ionheads recently with mixed results.

Has anyone used the alternative turrets from FW? I'm curious as to how effective they would be.

It makes you more effectively able to shoot the enemy army at a diagonal, or during Spearhead missions.

But they can still come in from deepstrike, normal reserves, outflank, faster transports.

5th ed makes the board all the more smaller IMO.

I usually put my broadsides in the middle of the field and dare my opponent to try and shoot at them. I then place a large kroot unit nearby for countercharging.

You can't outflank me with a kroot conga line running across the sides of the board and I never had anything fast get to the broadsides, they'd have to make it through 3 layers of troops and suits to get there.

You can't outflank me with a kroot conga line running across the sides of the board.

Oh please...lets not get into that here.

I never had anything fast get to the broadsides

'Never' is pretty ballsy, not trying to be mean, but how many games have you had?

No Commandos w/ character or space wolf scouts show up at your rear?
No vanguards actually working well?
No flamers getting close enough to BBQ them?
No Mawlocs to push them around?

There are alot of things to by pass the 3 layers of troops.... good old weight of fire can bring down the mighty 2+ saves even.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Volkov wrote:

Can't you use markerlights to make it twinlinked? Or improve the accuracy somehow?

You can use a markerlight to improve its BS to 5

Thanks, let me rephrase:

I would love to have a str10 BS5 AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke in my space marine army. How is that not worth 180 points?

It costs a lot more than 180 points once you pay for the markerlights.

72" is worthless unless you're playing on some really odd tables.

As a player of guard primarily I am surprised how often I make corner to corner shots with my basilisks

Sanctjud wrote:

You can't outflank me with a kroot conga line running across the sides of the board.

Oh please...lets not get into that here.

I never had anything fast get to the broadsides

'Never' is pretty ballsy, not trying to be mean, but how many games have you had?

No Commandos w/ character or space wolf scouts show up at your rear?
No vanguards actually working well?
No flamers getting close enough to BBQ them?
No Mawlocs to push them around?

There are alot of things to by pass the 3 layers of troops.... good old weight of fire can bring down the mighty 2+ saves even.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I lose, often. But I have never had any outflanking or fast unit get my broadsides. Maybe my opponents aren't afraid of them; let's face it, once the vehicles are gone, they're only good for trying to put wounds on big baddies. I've played about 30 games with my Tau. They have been shot, stabbed, stomped, etc but never been outflanked or assaulted by jump infantry or any other scouting/fast/deep striking stuff.

Now I've cursed myself and it'll happen tomorrow.

Lorek wrote:Flavius Infernus, I find it not to be worth 180 points because for 285, I get three Broadsides with twin-linked Railguns that can split fire and have two shield drones. They are less mobile, but for those one or two "terrain shadow" areas where they can't see, I can use Piranhas or my Ionhead (which I do really like). The Hammerhead may be harder to kill, but it's relatively easy to keep from shooting each turn, whereas the Broadsides fire turn after turn.

Also, in your "180 points for all this stuff", you're counting Markerlights, so don't forget to include your costs (and opportunity costs) for this. To get BS5 with no cover save, you'd need four marker light hits. You simply can't get that with Sniper Drone Teams or Skyrays (not enough shots), so you're limited to Markerlight Drones (at BS3 and 30 points each, you're talking 240 points of drones) or Pathfinders (again at BS3, you'll need eight shots to average four hits, and at minimum it'll run you 176 points). So in reality, you'll need 356 points to get "str10 BS5 AP1 shot that can move 12" to shoot and deny cover saves on a platform with permanent smoke", as you put it. And even then you're limited to the 36" range of the Markerlights.

Does it still seem worth it?

I agree. The fact that a single HF landspeeder (50 points) can fly and and toast the pathfinders to oblivion is why I don't like using other units to evaluate the usefulness of a different unit. The thing must be looked at on its own. And right now, the tricked out Railhead is just too expensive by 20-30 points when looking at comparable output/surviability of what is in the various 5th ed codex.

Under fourth ed. The SMS was invaluable as you could still fire it after moving 12" You would get the railgun shot and 4 shots at some infantry. Also if the railgun got blown off, you could move the Railhead behind LOS blocking cover to play VP denial and still be participating in the battle with the SMS. Now we have to choose. Railgun or SMS. Also because of the new vehicle assault rules if you slow down your Railhead so it can still shoot both weapons your now stupidly vulnerable to assault. Guys will be hitting on 4s not 6s and it is all against your back armor of 10 instead of whatever facing they happen to be on.

Yeah the disruption pod is awesome, but it still stops working at 12" or less. How many meltaguns are getting spammed in todays metagame?

Back in the day I used 2 tricked out Railheads and one unit of 2 broadsides. That was a ton of heavy firepower (4 railguns) or lots of anti-infantry (two pieplates and 16 SMS). Now, I'm going to run two units of two broadsides and one Ion head with burstcannons. Thats still 4 railguns and 20 SMS for anti infantry, but I also get 3 Ion shots for low AV squadrons or rhino busting.) All for about the same points and the Hammerhead doesn't feel as usless when driving slow and being somewhat up close because if it does go down, its not quite so expensive.

I run two Smart Missile Railheads with Target Locks, and a team of two Broadsides, in most my builds. The ability to ignore TLOS-based cover is quite nice, and it's handy to get the extra 6" of range to better-avoid the enemy next turn being able to walk into Disruption Pod range.

As for the Pathfinders, I usually am able to write off the cost of the Devilfish, if only for I give Fire Warriors a Devilfish anyways.