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Hi, I'm new to dakka and have just returned to 40k after a long, long break.
This is my chaos list as it is now, criticism is greatly appreciated, as long as it's constructive.

I'm not really looking to make this a competitive army (I want to keep my serious tournament activity to MtG only) so it doesn't have to be particularly suited against the metagame. But I still want it to pack a punch, casual is not synonymous with bad.

So anyway, I took my 3 week old army-building skills and limited rules knowledge and took a shot at it.


2499 points

HQ
1x Chaos Terminator Lord 140
Mark of Khorne
Twin Lightning Claws

1x Kharn the Betrayer 165

1x Greater Daemon 100

TROOPS
9x Khorne Berzerker 224 (in LR with Kharn)
Skull Champion
Power Fist
Meltabombs

8x Khorne Berzerker 203 (in LR with Termie Lord)
Skull Champion
Power Fist
Meltabomb

10x Plague Marine 310
Plasma Gun
Plasma Gun
Rhino
Havoc Launcher

10x Plague Marine 310
Plasma Gun
Plasma Gun
Rhino
Havoc Launcher

ELITE
1x Chaos Dreadnought 105
Plasma Cannon

6x Chaos Chosen 138
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Meltabomb

FAST ATTACK
3x Chaos Biker 139
Biker Champion
Meltabomb
Meltagun
Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
1x Land Raider 220

1x Land Raider 220

3x Obliterator 225


I don't think there's much to explain as to the strategy, as it's pretty straightforward. (ahh, I love getting into new games. The world is still magical and full of surprise when you're a n00b)
1. rush forward with the LR's
2. unload psychopaths on opponent
3. profit

4. Plague Marines in Rhino's follow in their wake to mop up stragglers/secure objectives
5. Oblits because they're versatile, so never useless (I hope) + felt like I needed some more long range fire support.
6. Greater Daemon and Dreadnought are there because I have them and I hope for them to create some epic moment (whether good or bad for me)


Some questions:
regarding rules:
- about the Chosen, can the squad carry 4 or 5 flamers? Because it says: "1 model may replace his bolter with a [...] flamer" and the next bit says "up to four models may replace their bolters with [...] flamer" So seems to me 5.
- about Rhinos, what's the deal with the Twin-linked bolter? Because it's listed under it's standard wargear, but you can also buy it for 5 points. Does it come free or do I have to buy it?

regarding tactics/strategies:
- do I play enough troops? I can't hold all the objectives when there are 5, but you'd only need 3. Problem is that the Berzerkers couldn't hold an objective if their bloodlust depended on it, so effectively I have 2 squads good at holding. (and 'zerkers could rush in last turn to steal one, but I'd rather not rely on that I think?)
- Bikers, are they worth it? I just use them because they came with the battleforce, so I put them to work as dedicated tank hunters, but they seem a bit expensive for a suicide squad.
- Plague Marines, plasma or melta? I don't want to get too carried away with the plasma, because I don't like guns that blow up in your rather expensive dude's face. But melta might be a bit overkill since I think I already have plenty of anti-armour in my list.
- what can I do to make it more epic? (without having to sacrifice my bank account)

I think it's a pretty good list, though I don't think it's on the same level as those Tier 1 'leafblower' lists.

Plague marines should be fine with plasma guns, they have a 3+ armor save and a 4+ feel no pain save to deal with any 'gets hot!' issues.

I agree about with the obliterators, you do need long range support and, since other long range support is pretty rare in your list, their versatility should come in handy.

4 Troops should be enough, hav eyour plague marines hold objectives while your berserkers go forward and seize/contest your opponent's objective.

It might be a better idea to switch the bikers with melta raptors.

You don't have to buy the twin-linked bolter, you get one free but you can buy another one.

What do you plan to do with your chosen exactly? Their short-ranged flamers aren't too useful to footsloggers from my experience.

The most 'epic' thing you can do is give your khorne lord a demon weapon, since it's either do something amazingly awesome or sit there and punch yourself in the face.

thanks for the quick reply!

Yeah I have plans for a daemon weaponed lord, I still have a chaos lord body + Typhys's scythe in my bit box = connection made. Should be epic, either win or fail.

Chosen are meant to be infiltrated near enemy lines out of LOS, so hopefully t1 if I go second otherwise t2 I can crisp a squad or meltabomb a vehicle if the need arises. Hope that's legal?
Also, can I have 5 or 4 flamers?

Why are raptors better here than bikers?

TiB wrote:


1x Chaos Terminator Lord 140
Mark of Khorne
Twin Lightning Claws

Looks fine. Daemon weapons are one of the great aspects of chaos lords so you might consider one. If not LCs are a great way to keep your lord cheap and efficient.

TiB wrote:
1x Kharn the Betrayer 165

Solid HQ. He can obviously take out a few of your own troops but most of the time his ire is focused on the enemy and when it is he tears it up.

TiB wrote:
1x Greater Daemon 100

If you have one already and want to use him that's ok. I don't like them because they have to eat one of your expensive champions.

TiB wrote:
9x Khorne Berzerker 224 (in LR with Kharn)
Skull Champion
Power Fist
Meltabombs

Perfectly fine.

TiB wrote:
8x Khorne Berzerker 203 (in LR with Termie Lord)
Skull Champion
Power Fist
Meltabomb

Also fine.

TiB wrote:
10x Plague Marine 310
Plasma Gun
Plasma Gun
Rhino
Havoc Launcher

Drop the havoc launcher. Your rhinos should be naked as they are almost guaranteed to get blown up and this means you won't get much if any use out of upgrades. I would drop the plasma for melta (at least on one squad). Even if you have lots already, CSM suffer from not enough tank-killing and at higher point levels it is even more obvious. Some recommend you drop the squad # down to 7 to keep it nurgley (and more efficient), but that is up to you.

Plasma works well with PMs because of their FNP rule, but for the most part you will get more benefit out of the melta.

TiB wrote:
10x Plague Marine 310
Plasma Gun
Plasma Gun
Rhino
Havoc Launcher

Same as above.

TiB wrote:
1x Chaos Dreadnought 105
Plasma Cannon

Definitely not recommended, but if you have one go for it. I might drop the plasma cannon in case he goes on a fire frenzy, but if you don't mind the risk at all go for it.

TiB wrote:
6x Chaos Chosen 138
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Flamer
Meltabomb

You might consider dropping these for a squad of 3 terms with combi-melta + 1PF(or just the 3 CM). The chosen get a lot of special weapons which is nice but they also get shot to pieces. DSing terminators can drop in and kill some tanks and then tie up some infantry before succumbing.

TiB wrote:
3x Chaos Biker 139
Biker Champion
Meltabomb
Meltagun
Meltagun

I think you'd get more use out of a similar squad to the terms above. If you have to use bikers this isn't a bad way to use them though. Turbo boost up close to a strong vehicle, blast them with melta, and drive into infantry to tie them up for a round or so.

TiB wrote:
1x Land Raider 220

Perfect as is

TiB wrote:
1x Land Raider 220

same as above

TiB wrote:
3x Obliterator 225

Solid choice, but be aware you're getting 1 shot for 75pts. For the same price as 2 oblits you can get a squad of 5 havocs with 8 str7 shots total.

TiB wrote:
I don't think there's much to explain as to the strategy, as it's pretty straightforward. (ahh, I love getting into new games. The world is still magical and full of surprise when you're a n00b)
1. rush forward with the LR's
2. unload psychopaths on opponent
3. profit

4. Plague Marines in Rhino's follow in their wake to mop up stragglers/secure objectives
5. Oblits because they're versatile, so never useless (I hope) + felt like I needed some more long range fire support.
6. Greater Daemon and Dreadnought are there because I have them and I hope for them to create some epic moment (whether good or bad for me)

#1 is basically the CSM motto. The biggest general suggestion is to use the plague marines defensively(ie like an anvil). They are meant to take charges(rapid firing bolters/sw's before they are charged), reduce attack bonus from charging, and then grind their opponent into dust. I usually use my PMs to tie expensive units up and then have an assault unit (reg csms, berzerkers, raptors, etc) come in and countercharge to clean the remainder up.

TiB wrote:
- about the Chosen, can the squad carry 4 or 5 flamers? Because it says: "1 model may replace his bolter with a [...] flamer" and the next bit says "up to four models may replace their bolters with [...] flamer" So seems to me 5.

5 is the right number. If you take a rhino you can also get a combi-weapon on it.

TiB wrote:
- about Rhinos, what's the deal with the Twin-linked bolter? Because it's listed under it's standard wargear, but you can also buy it for 5 points. Does it come free or do I have to buy it?

The first one is free. The second one can be bought and fired when at combat speed(or slower) because it counts as a defensive weapon for being under str5.

TiB wrote:
- do I play enough troops? I can't hold all the objectives when there are 5, but you'd only need 3. Problem is that the Berzerkers couldn't hold an objective if their bloodlust depended on it, so effectively I have 2 squads good at holding. (and 'zerkers could rush in last turn to steal one, but I'd rather not rely on that I think?)

You have 4 sets of troops. If you think you need objective-sitters you should take regular csm squads /w IoCG + an autocannon/missile launcher + flamer or melta.

TiB wrote:
- Bikers, are they worth it? I just use them because they came with the battleforce, so I put them to work as dedicated tank hunters, but they seem a bit expensive for a suicide squad.

They are expensive and mostly used as a suicide squad. If you want biker squads that count for something you need to use loyalist rules. Just the way it is atm.

TiB wrote:
- Plague Marines, plasma or melta? I don't want to get too carried away with the plasma, because I don't like guns that blow up in your rather expensive dude's face. But melta might be a bit overkill since I think I already have plenty of anti-armour in my list.

Think I answered this in the plague marine section.

TiB wrote:
- what can I do to make it more epic? (without having to sacrifice my bank account)

I think your list is mostly fine as is. You've already sacrificed a lot of things for your dread + bikes + GD.

I said the raptors were better than the bikes because they are cheaper (which is good for the suicide role). However, I believe replacing them with terminators is the better idea.

wow, talk about thorough!

About the Dreadnought, I was hoping to minimize losses on my side by sticking it on a flank next to a Land Raider, which it cannot hurt anyway if it happens to go bananas.

As for the magic number 7 for Plague Marines, why is it best? Best cost:effectiveness ratio, or just fluff? (I remember last codex your cult squads would get a boost if they had the correct number, but I don't remember seeing that in the current codex) I was just thinking moar bodies = moar durability.

I wish the old dex was still around. Sure would have liked to use the Iron Warriors rule to trade 2 FA slots for 1 HS. Not a big price to pay when you've got nothing decent to go in those slots anyway :p

thanks for the tips you two, I'll be revising my list soon.

TiB wrote:
As for the magic number 7 for Plague Marines, why is it best? Best cost:effectiveness ratio, or just fluff? (I remember last codex your cult squads would get a boost if they had the correct number, but I don't remember seeing that in the current codex) I was just thinking moar bodies = moar durability.

It keeps your squads cheaper(ie around the same price as a full-sized csm squad fully equipped) while still maintaining an good level of firepower and durability. You don't have to hit a certain number of models to get the extra heavy/special weapon like in regular csm squads so it isnt necessary to have 10 models. So it is a little bit of efficiency and a little bit of fluff.

TiB wrote:
I wish the old dex was still around. Sure would have liked to use the Iron Warriors rule to trade 2 FA slots for 1 HS. Not a big price to pay when you've got nothing decent to go in those slots anyway :p

You me and everyone that has ever played chaos prior to 4th edition wishes the old codex was still available. I miss my cultists for my word bearer/alpha legion armies and my indirect fire defiler too.

Halsfield wrote:It keeps your squads cheaper(ie around the same price as a full-sized csm squad fully equipped) while still maintaining an good level of firepower and durability. You don't have to hit a certain number of models to get the extra heavy/special weapon like in regular csm squads so it isnt necessary to have 10 models. So it is a little bit of efficiency and a little bit of fluff.

Ok I'll look into it, just seems like a bit of a waste to have your Rhino's driving around half empty.

The chaos lord isn't a bad setup; however for the price of the lord and kharn you can get two daemons princes. The princes are better than lords and will help with the saturation of monstrous creatures helping the greater daemon survive longer.

On the berzerkers you don't need a power fist and melta bombs. Power fist is better because you can hit walkers, vehicles and infantry a lot better.

Drop the dreadnought because they can be wild but more importantly it has no support in the form of another dreadnought.

3 bikers are going to get wasted, quickly. if you want them to survive throw on MoN which makes them T6!

Well the bikers aren't really supposed to be durable, they just have to turbo (so that's also an extra protection if I'm not mistaken) to a dangerous tank or a key transport, meltaspam it to death and tangle up the squad inside. Though MoN would make them super tough, it's a dang expensive upgrade for what still essentially will be a suicide squad. Their mission is just to destroy more than their own points in armour, maybe slow things down a bit and basically die. A 50 point upgrade won't make things more efficient. If you have a big squad of bikers zooming around the battlefield rapid firing infantry MoN is obligatory, here, I don't like it.

Your point on the berzerkers seems fair.

So you're saying 2 Dreadnoughts or none? I can understand you saying no dreads, cause that's what everyone says. But 2? Just for fire dilution?

I'm afraid that DP's will just get shot down before the big guy even shows up, especially in these higher point battles where the firepower is a lot more intense.

I was thinking, wouldn't a squad of Chosen with MoN and a few Meltaguns be a good alternative for the bikers, trading the extra speed for infiltrate?