Command Squad vs. Honor Guard

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**micahaphone**

Most people agree that Chapter Masters are worse than Captains, as the only differences are that they lose the ability of "Mounted Assault", they get an Orbital Bombardment, and they can take Honor Guards instead of command squads. I'm not arguing this, i am arguing for Honor Guards. Command squads 3 marines for the same price as 5 regular marines, except one is an Apothecary. However, an honor guard costs the same for 3 marines, except if you subtract the price of relic blades and artificer armor, they end up only costing 8-ish points per model! Does anyone have good/bad experiences with either of these units?

**thebetter1**

I've never used either unit competitively, but I have considered ways to use them.

Command Squads are really specialist units. They can be adapted to perform many different roles for the army. For example, 4 plasma guns would do a lot better than a las-plas tactical squad. You could also make a unit that specializes in killing a transport and assaulting the unit inside. And then there are biker command squads, which are really for biker lists.

Honour Guard are a bit tricky. They are basically immune to battle cannons with their 2+ armour, whereas a command squad would get owned unless it has storm shields. Against AP 2 weaponry, however, these guys really fall apart, as they have no invulnerable saves whatsoever. They also have trouble against specialist close combat units, as their strength is often not high enough to wound and they will lose a lot of models to power weapons. They could do really well against normal MEQs.

**Gornall**

I've run HG successfully in large point games with PA Calgar as an escort. It's a great unit, as you base Calgar against the annoying hidden PF/PWs so they can't kill your HG and let the HG smash the rest of the unit. They do well against things like MEQs or even lighter assault units like Assault Marines or Zerkers... and they love PMs a bunch. However, this was before the new Nids which eat their lunch. Their advantages over LC Termies though are the Banner (reroll pinning and morale within 12"), being able to sweeping advance, built in grenades, ride flexibility and the Champion. However, the Termies still have the Invulnerable save and the ability to take TH/SS.

**Corennus**

Having been lambasted for my inclusion of a command squad in my army I can say that against most things a command squad will do pretty well. Teamed with a captain they can take down Dreadnoughts with ease. It's against heavy fire they fall apart, or against Terminators.

Honour Guard: I can't see reason not to take Relic Blades and Storm Shields. The extra strength should help enormously against opponenents. But giving the CM more than 3 honour guard gets expensive.

Problem will always be the armour though. The Artificer armour of the Honour Guard is nice....but no inv save.
The power armour of the Command Squad, even with the Apothecary there to Heal....is a bad choice

**Gornall**

Corennus wrote:Honour Guard: I can't see reason not to take Relic Blades and Storm Shields.

Other than the fact that they can't take SS's.

**Honersstodnt**

Honor guard cost what per model... 45? 60 if you give them relic blades?

Take grey knight terminators... come with build in relic blades at 46 points a model

**Gornall**

Honersstodnt wrote:Honor guard cost what per model... 45? 60 if you give them relic blades?

Take grey knight terminators... come with build in relic blades at 46 points a model

This... GKTs are cheaper and better armed/equipped than HG with Relic Blades. TBH, I use GKT rules to represent HG in TDA (to match Calgar's TDA).

**Illumini**

Honor guards are just totally outclassed by assault termies (or GK termies). They are sadly one of the useless units in an otherwise very nice codex

**xxBlazinGhostxx**

Can't speak of HG. Never played them, never played against it.

I have run a command squad with 3 plasma guns are a meltagun. I love them.

The 7 shots that just kill MEQ is so annoying to my enemies when I ran them.

The only bad part about the command squad, besides the cost, is that you have to take a Captain...

**Corennus**

Try putting your Captain and Command Squad on bikes.

Super mobile plasma and melta guns!

Admittedly I think i've gone for the wrong choice giving my command squad all CC weapons, but to support a CC Captain I thought it was best choice.

And why oh why can't they bring back Terminator Command Squads.....

Now that every other army is getting badder and meaner (Tyranids get their new big monsters. Orks get even more close combat orkiness, Eldar will probably get some new nasty stuff, Necrons will just get unkillable.....) it's time the NORMAL Space Marine army got to be a little less.......normal.

**Honersstodnt**

if you want to use a biker command squad, Just remember to keep it cheap... there are alot of armies out there with long range str8 that will rob you of fnp, even if you get your armor save.

my biker command squad i've been using -

Captain w/ relic blade, bike, stormshield
Champion with power sword, combat shield
Veteran with power sword, banner
Veteran with lightning claw, flamer, stormshield
Veteran with lightning claw, flamer, stormshield
Apothecary

320 points... much cheaper than most guys run their command squads. You get the following on the charge though -

4 str6 I6 power sword attacks
8 str4 I4 power sword attacks
6 str4 I4 lightning claw attacks
4 str4 I4 regular attacks

combine that with null zone from a supporting librarian, and any unit toughness 4 or below will be dead... regardless of what their invulnerable is. Anything higher toughness should be dealt with by melta/plasma from another unit, and anything more hordy should be flamed before charging.

**Corennus**

ummm how are you taking a veteran with a lightning claw flamer AND storm shield???

Besides, if you're taking a storm shield you should take a Thunder Hammer surely.
Two lightning claws on a bike wouldn't work. Be like Wolverine trying to drive with his claws out lol

**Sanctjud**

@Corennus:
You don't need one hand to drive a bike...you actually don't need to. They can perfectly have 2 claws and be legal.

@Honersstodnt:
Why power weapon on the joe, when the single LC is superior? The Champion gets away with it because he has higher WS.
___________

Anyway, I see biker command squads are useful for two things:
1. Banner.
2. Special weapon spam (specifically plasma due to FNP).

**Corennus**

320 points for a command squad??

One word. OUCH

At my most insane moment of putting everything I could think of on my command squad I topped 250 points.

Bikes aren't worth it unless you take Khan as captain! IMO

**Honersstodnt**

meh, I take the power sword because it looks cooler.

and 320 points is relatively cheap for a biker command squad... i've seen people deck out 4 guys with thunderhammers/stormshields/melta guns.... cost gets crazy.

I model my guys with lightning claws/stormshields/flamers with a flamer built into the stormshield, so it looks like their only carrying 2 weapons (I do have a flamer nozzle installed on the shield)

**Corennus**

That's like my captain carrying a storm bolter/shield combo.

**O'shovah**

For some reason they made SS an option rather than a replacement (ie. think of melta bombs). Don't know why but they did. It also allows some good combo's.

**Sanctjud**

Corennus wrote:Bikes aren't worth it unless you take Khan as captain! IMO

Completely false. What is your rationale for that huge over-generalization?

**Corennus**

A captain on a bike on his own is fine. A captain with a command squad on bikes is takeing too many points in my opinion.

**Sanctjud**

And yet you suggest upping the points more by taking Khan?
True, it's what you do/get with the points invested, but unless you go with a decked out Command Squad with Khan it's still not worthy.

So no matter how you slice it, a command squad on bikes with IC is expensive.
So their efficiency won't dip alot with just going with a cheap Captain instead... it will save roughly 40 points...that's an extra Terminator...or what not.

Khan 'buffs' his one unit at the cost of reducing everbody else's tactical options.
Hit and Run is indeed nice, when it doesn't fux up 1/3 of the time and FC is good, but you are looking for 2 round assaults...and a fast biker list should not be looking for 'bogged down' fights.
________________________________

Anyway:

If I were to run a command squad it would be them with 4 plasma guns which is 265, a banner if I have the points.
Plasma makes the most of FNP. The Rapid Fire aspect of the gun makes the most of the Relentless. They add more special weapons on a bit more of a durable platform.

**winterman**

Honor guard are only worth it in a pedro army that is using its elites for other things but still wants a cc oriented counter charge unit. Otherwise you are better off with terminators for that duty (and frankly better off taking a librarian or vulkan instead of a captain or master).

Biker armies can get some use outta the command squad. Otherwise I don't see much use in them either.

**Illumini**

Why would you take the banner on the command squad? It pretty much is of no use - re-roll morale with Ld10... not worth the cost at all IMO

**Sanctjud**

It's a 12" bubble...and ld 9 is the general high for most basic trooper outside of specialists.

I don't know about you, but reducing unintended runaways is a useful thing...for only 1X points...not a huge bullet to bite.

I run mass bikers, so running away 3D6 when i don't want to...sucks.
And yes, even at ld 10 it will fail. It's not a question of 'if', but of 'when.'

**thebetter1**

Illumini wrote:Why would you take the banner on the command squad? It pretty much is of no use - re-roll morale with Ld10... not worth the cost at all IMO

It also helps you out with combat resolution. You become that much more likely to get a sweeping advance.

**Honersstodnt**

the +1 to combat resolution the banner provides to your combat squad can help too... not much, but every little bit helps.

and your 4 plasma gun command squad idea is intriguing... maybe add 2 stormshields to absorb incoming plasma fire? Have you tried such a squad out? It would actually be quite awesome...

**Sgt.Sunshine**

Doesn't the banner add +1 Attack to the entire unit as well?

**Illumini**

That's the chapter banner (honour guards)

**Corennus**

Company Banner, as long as Standard Bearer is alive allows the Command Squad to score one extra wound in close combat for the purposes of calculating the assault result.

My interpretation:

If you roll a max of 5 hits, and get 5 wounds, you add an extra wound on to that result so your opponent has to save an extra wound.

In other words it means your opponent has to save another wound, which could mean life and death for one of his guys.

**Illumini**

Your interpretation is wrong.

The only way it could help force a save on your opponent is if he is fearless

**Corennus**

thank you for that enlightening statement. what you should have said is "your interpretation is wrong. This is the actual thing that happens....."

So what does happen?