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Marines are the most popular choice for an army and sell the most minis.

They also are very popular fluff wise with the most books about them, guard coming in second.

This leads to many marine vs marine battles on the table top, which doesn't make too much sense.

Why not retcon some of the fluff to show more down right animosity and schisms between chapters, with cases of Chapters going to outright war with each other? I think it would be kind of cool to see chapters at each others throats with a desperate Admin trying to keep them focused on other targets instead of killing each other.

Just seems to make a bit more sense to me.

In the older (Rogue Trader/2ed) fluff they had plenty of reasons to go to war with one another, because they played up the brainwashed mindless psychopath aspect of the Astartes.

The problem with the current Space Marines is that they're bland cartoon action heroes. They are good for the sake of goodness. Amongst the superstition and blind hatred of the Imperium, they are inexplicably a lone beacon of truth, reason and justice. You'd think having your brain scrubbed clean, rewritten with ancient and irrelevant rhetoric and archaic tactical information, then being put through painful surgery that strips you of your very humanity would leave Astartes as anything but the largely cheerful, emotionally well developed good guys they're often portrayed as! That's what the kiddies want in their heroes however.

So no, Space Marines won't have any real legitimate reason to fight one another, unless GW decide to retcon away all the Black Library and Matt Ward fluff for the last decade.

Rube wrote:In the older (Rogue Trader/2ed) fluff they had plenty of reasons to go to war with one another, because they played up the brainwashed mindless psychopath aspect of the Astartes.

The problem with the current Space Marines is that they're bland cartoon action heroes. They are good for the sake of goodness. Amongst the superstition and blind hatred of the Imperium, they are inexplicably a lone beacon of truth, reason and justice. You'd think having your brain scrubbed clean, rewritten with ancient and irrelevant rhetoric and archaic tactical information, then being put through painful surgery that strips you of your very humanity would leave Astartes as anything but the largely cheerful, emotionally well developed good guys they're often portrayed as! That's what the kiddies want in their heroes however.

So no, Space Marines won't have any real legitimate reason to fight one another, unless GW decide to retcon away all the Black Library and Matt Ward fluff for the last decade.

Dude, which novels have you been reading? I haven't read anything with cheerful, emotionally well-developed good guys.

Almost every Black Library book starring Space Marines. They're all chummy and good natured to each other, they laugh and makes jokes, and generally look down on the superstition the entirety of the rest of the Imperium exhibits. Letting Xenos leave in peace is prevalent too (Ultramarines and Blood Angels being notable examples).

Granted, it's partly because writing a story from the point of view of an emotionally stunted brick wall that exists only to murder without question, with nothing that could be thought of as a conventional personality, is hard to do. It is very cool when done correctly however (see Judge Dredd, one of the main inspirations for the early Space Marines).

The Ultramarines despise chapters who do not adhere to the rules.

The Dark Angels are not to be trusted and do not trust either.

The Blood Angels get a lot of bad publicity due to their own freakishness. I would say that there is no real trust between BA successor chapters either (who are you going to blame for your vampiric roidrages? its all down to the genes!)

The Space wolves love a good scrap so it doesn't matter who they fight.

Each chapter has their own way of going about bringing the emperors light to the galaxy, there is bound to be the odd spat.


@thedarksaint just make up your own fluff for when you play

It all depends on the mission, as well as the chapters involved.

I too, feel your pain. The 'fluff' of the game is the main reason I play. (Otherwise I would just play Risk.) So I often wonder at the circumstances behind battles as they occur.

1. The first one I ever heard suggested (by my mentor in the game) was that it isn't a real battle. It's a training exercise. The ammunition isn't live, and any figs which are removed aren't killed, merely 'out'.

2. As above, but rather than a training mission, it is a historical reinactment for the purpose of some large ceremony, holiday, or celebration.

3. Another good one is this: due to a plot by agents of Chaos, false tactical information was delivered to the aggressor army, implicating the defender in a conspiracy of treason. The attacker is moving in due to perceived time constraints or overwhelming (false) evidence. After the battle is over they will all feel terrible, but such is life in the 41st millenium.

4. If you have two chapters that share a common link (Rampagers and White Scars, for example, or Novamarines and Praetors of Orpheus) than you can justify it by assuming that they are fighting over a relic from their shared past. (Khan's ancestral whetstone, or the quill that Gulliman used to pen the Codex Astartes. Whatever floats your boat)

5. Keep in mind that some chapters, while friendly enough, share a fundamental difference in opinion on how things are to be done. The Salamanders, for example, consider protecting the innocents of the Imperium to be one of their primary goals. They might easily come to a head against a more agressive chapter in defense of a civilian population.

6. The above suggestion about a Chaos plot works equally well if you sub in the Inquisition. Do you think it would be out of character for them to manipulate Marines into fighting each other if it served their ends? I don't.

7. If the Marines have a major failing, it's pride. One tiny thing can be misinterpreted by a prideful witness, and the whole thing can escalate from their until it reaches full on bloodshed. One side wants the other to move in first, because it makes tactical sense. The other side claims the other marines want them to take all the casualties and then plans on stealing the glory. The first side takes offense, and threatens the speaker from the second side. The speaker refuses to fight him, and gets a chastised by a superior for cowardice...you can see how this could eventually lead to a fight.

8. Mistaken identity. One side knows that there is a group of Chaos Marines masquerading in the colors of a loyalist chapter. Coincidentally, there happens to be a group of marines from that loyalist chapter ON the planet. It could be very easy to make a mistake in a situation like that.

9. As stated before, several chapters don't like each other already, or are strongly divergent from the accepted norms for Marines. Perhaps one side witnessed an abberant practice of the other (such as blood drinking, flesh devouring, trophy taking) and assumed the odd behavior was sign of Chaos taint.

10. Is one army a homemade chapter? If so, it is (probably) smaller and less well known than the listed ones. As such, it could easily fall under suspicion from more established marines.

11. If one side is a Codex chapter and the other isn't, then this could also lead to a fight. I am sure deviant marines are tired of being "oppressed" by the devotees of Gulliman.

12. The final suggestion I can think of is that one of the groups is in fact turning traitor, and the other side is trying to exterminate them before they leave.

I hope these suggestions help you get some peace of mind the next time you set out marines on the table only to find more marines looking back at you. And if you play against me, we'll come up with something together.

Another possible solution is to stop playing an SM army and get an Ork, Tyranid, DE, Eldar, Tau, Necron or Chaos army instead.

I think the last army that needs an update of any kind is the Space Marines.

I don't think he wants a large update, just some fluff for all this marine v. marine battles.

Jimsolo just gave many many good ideas. I think I'm going to copy them for next time my marines (inevitably) have to fight another chapter.

Good stuff Jim.

OP- See the Badab War for an example of what you're looking for. Old fluff did well to mention "issues" between chapters, but it's 2010 with a kinder gentler 40K background.

War Games/Military Exercises?

Jimsolo wrote:3. Another good one is this: due to a plot by agents of Chaos, false tactical information was delivered to the aggressor army, implicating the defender in a conspiracy of treason. The attacker is moving in due to perceived time constraints or overwhelming (false) evidence. After the battle is over they will all feel terrible, but such is life in the 41st millenium.

We're doing this exact thing at the moment in a campaign-forces of misguided Blood Angels, Ultramarines, and Astral Panthers (someones homebrew chapter) are attacking a planet they believe has fallen to chaos after being delivered tampered information by the forces of the Warmaster (thats me!). The Guardsmen, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves are fighting back, though just to throw a spanner in the works I'm playing some on-loan traitor guard next week to further confuse the hapless BA.
And I will say, it makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of confusion between all the Imperial forces as to who's fighing who, with Brother regularly taking on Brother. "Chaos did it" may be a cop-out excuse most of the time, put in a picnh it's good enough.

Similar to the Kronus Campaign with the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines. Each side has different orders that conflict with each other. Being manly men, it becomes a brawl. Either they are trying to recover an artifact, while someone else is told to keep incursions out, or someone needs information and interferes with someone's siege of a city with the library the others need in it.

Can also be noted for the Marines Malevolent. The Salamanders really, really disagree with them. If memory serves, the Malevolent fired weapons into hostages held by orks under the presumption that they weren't worth saving. The Salamanders really disliked that.

And, as a side note, the only chapter I heard being "good for the sake of good" are the Salamanders. The Space Wolves get a notation for Armageddon. But from what I can tell, all being "Good" guys mean for Astartes is that Exterminatus is typically a last resort and wading through crowds on full auto is sometimes discouraged.

Marine fluff, for the most part, is horrid; marines - autowin 99% of the time

I think that the Ultramarines might take exception to someone executing hostages, or declaring their own unofficial Exterminatus on a population group, depending on the society of those about to be gunned down. And I am sure that most marines would be grumpy if someone else is trying to make decisions regarding the native populations of their homeworlds or planets that fall under their sphere of influence.

I agree with several of the above posters, by the way. As a dedicated marines player, I don't want any more damn rules updates. I was just figuring out the last rules when they updated them again. I would like more frequent background updates however. Especially in regards to orks, chaos, necrons, and Imperial forces. To be honest, I dislike the eldar/dark eldar and the tyranids, so I can't honestly say I want to see more background info on them, but I think that it wouldn't be hard for GW to be producing more background material for everyone. The rules changes can come later.

Also, the Dawn of War expansions Dark Crusade and Soulstorm give some reasons as to why the Imperial factions were fighting each other.

Admittably they were kind of weak. The Space Marines said get out and the Guard said no. I guess it was a conflict of orders thing.

Back when I played Blood Ravens I told my Marine opponents to just pretend they'd found some secrets regarding the BR's origins... usually the objective would be a comm-dish to transmit the findings Anyhoo, ANGELOS WAS NOT HAPPEH.

Now that I'm a Dark Angel, I'll probably just pretend that my opponent has found out about the Fallen and needs to be silenced

Wow, I sure like secretive chapters...

As for more "normal" factions, I'll try come out with some reasons for animosity:

1. Imperial Fists vs Ultramarines: Dorn still has a score to settle! Just pretend you're playing immediately post-heresy Rowboat wants to split yer legion!

2. Blood Angels vs Anyone: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GO- oh wait, I mean... Red Thirst! Raaargh... Okay, this one is weak... Just pretend they're on Karauva and have conflicting orders

3. Dark Angels vs Space Wolves: El Jonson punched Russ, so now they hate each other...

4. Black Templars vs Anyone: I SAW YOU HUG AN ALIEN!

Or the more realistic conclusion? One of the players' armies is a renegade company

Of all of these, i think the Inquisitorial plot is the most plausable.

The last thing the Inquisition want is 1'000 chapters of Marines - all nominally independant - rampaging around the galaxy doing their own thing.

There are probably whole sects of the Hereticus dedicated solely to observing the Marines and arranging for the more beligerant or divergent to be 'culled'.

That is to say pick any two chapters that seem a bit big for their boots, get them all lathered up and pointed at each other. two problems solved with one fight.

The idea is not necessarily to destroy one or both chapters, just trim their numbers somewhat. enough to keep them on the sidelines for a generation or two.

@Azezel- That's perfectly along the lines of what I'm looking for. I play Inq and Xenos, but no actual marines. It just bothers me that we have so many marine players out there that beat each other up with no real reasoning behind it in the current published materials.

Alpharius wrote:War Games/Military Exercises?

I am surprised no one has commented on this at all. In the US Military, even down to DoD civvies(I have served the DoD more than once) we learn room entries, hostile arrest tactics/non-lethal tactics, room clearing, and a whole hell of a lot more stuffs. After all that we practice, against paper targets, etc. Then we get drunk and shoot each-other with air-soft rifles, paintball guns etc. AND THE SOMETIMES, we go out to a PAINTBALL field and PRETEND we are opposite sides of some fight.

Admittedly sometimes it as as dumb ass Boob-guys VS Ass-guys, but sometimes it is all the civvies VS Military Personal(SM vs IG), or terrorists vs Counter-Terrorists (Chapter Vs Chapter) and we have fun. And sometimes we even play warhammer....

Point is War Games are a huge factor in Training, and the SM Fluff does state that the Astrates kinda Practice ALL THE TIME. Its a nice little pre-packaged little answer.

As for the Blood Ravens, if anyone ever figured out they're a successor Chapter to the Thousand Sons that'd make a pretty good reason to fight right there.

Nitros14 wrote:As for the Blood Ravens, if anyone ever figured out they're a successor Chapter to the Thousand Sons that'd make a pretty good reason to fight right there.

really? Is that in the books?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:As for the Blood Ravens, if anyone ever figured out they're a successor Chapter to the Thousand Sons that'd make a pretty good reason to fight right there.

really? Is that in the books?

"a thousand sons" has a vision of one of the remembrancers ( all of them psykers / hint) with a "bloody raven" .....go figure.