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Simple Question Really, how do you think things would be different if Guilliman hadn't created the Codex Astartes?


Personally, I believe as a whole, the Imperium would be weaker. More out-going and rebellious Legions such as the Dark Angels and Space Wolves may prove difficult to control, although individually more powerful. The could be the possibility of the DA's buggering off to hunt some fallen and even more Space Wolves going with Russ into the EOT. Whereas I feel the Ultramarines would really (as they did) become the forefront of humanity's defence, being a relatively unharmed but huge Legion, I expect they'd really be humanity's main defence, alongside the Blood Angels (also difficult to control however), White Scars (may follow their Primarch however) and Imperial Fists. Whereas I'd imagine the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands to play a largely supportive role until they recovered.
However, without the existence of chapters there could be significantly less renegade marines, although the Legions would have to be led by one - often non-primarch - man, a difficult task with a chapter let alone a Legion. So whereas each Legion would be stronger, I feel they'd be more disorganised, harder to control by by Terra and their own leaders and potentially more vulnerable as they'd still rely on one planet.

Your Thoughts?

Being flippant if Gulliman had spent more time training rather than writing he may not have been 'wounded unto death'

More practically I think that the split up of Legions into more manageable Chapters was inevitable as Primarchs demised. Due to the de-centralised nature of the Legion Command Structure individaul Legion Captains (pretty much the equivalent of Chapter Masters) would have moulded their commands to their own image over time and these commands would have become very much like the Chapters we see in the 41st M.

their would be more varity in the SM codex

the DAs wouldn't be so EMO

Ultramarines would actually rock

GW would be able to make more SM codexs and sell even more models

I reckon Dark Angels would be even more Emo! as there'd be more of them from the original chapter and split. etc.

Oh Yeah, I did think that this would also make Ultramarines GW's poster-boys even more, but lets not go there...

I think of Post Heresy Imperium kinda went down like post Revolution America. Both were very afraid of abuse of power and so created an elaborate system of checks and balances. Although this seemed like a good idea at the time generations later its become a stifiling system of Beauracy that actually hurts them now. The ability to progress socially is constantly being beaten back by all those damn checks and balances now.

See!? You don't even know what decaying empire I'm talking about now?

Grey Templar wrote:their would be more varity in the SM codex

possible

Or we would see 9 space marine codices.

Codex astartes isn't so bad, but not really flexible enough when a chapter adheres to the written word too much.
Like every written source it needs room for interpretations.

The loss of codex astartes would give more room to flesh out the specialities of the Legions as they were designed to have
strengths and IMO the codex just levels the playfield to : space marine = yes, color = (insert chapter here).

Without codex astartes we could get rid of 'bestest marines' and other crappy ideas and return to 'best suited to...' ,
so anyone would have something going on for.

Codex: DA

Codex: BA

Codex: BT

Codex: SW

Codex: Smurfs

Codex: Impierial fists

Codex: Salamanders

Codex: White Scars

Codex: Iron Hands

Codex: Raven Guard

Codex: Mystery Marines 1

Codex: Mystery Marines 2

Just Dave wrote:Simple Question Really, how do you think things would be different if Guilliman hadn't created the Codex Astartes?

Rape and pillage! Orks roaming the countryside, raping our churches and burning our women!

S_P

Space_Potato wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Simple Question Really, how do you think things would be different if Guilliman hadn't created the Codex Astartes?

Rape and pillage! Orks roaming the countryside, raping our churches and burning our women!

S_P

This man has the right idea!

It's good to see such endorsement for raping and pillaging guys...

Nothing wrong with either providing you shout surprise....

There'd have been a second Horus Heresy probably.

Grey Templar wrote:Codex: DA

Codex: BA

Codex: BT

Codex: SW

Codex: Smurfs

Codex: Impierial fists

Codex: Salamanders

Codex: White Scars

Codex: Iron Hands

Codex: Raven Guard

Codex: Mystery Marines 1

Codex: Mystery Marines 2

There wouldn't be a BT Chapter, as long as Rogal Dorn wouldn't have had to divide his Legion. I guess this is the same for the whole 2nd foundation.

Edit: IIRC the splitting of the Legions into Chapters was stated in the Codex Astartes, right?

I'm not sure there would've... for one it would instead be a [insert Primarch here - not Horus] Heresy instead.
secondly, I reckon the Primarchs would back down before such an event occurred again, it was clear with the Codex Astartes that they wanted to avoid such a thing, even with massively different views...

Maybe, but the Pirmarchs died or were lost afterwards, and therefor the legions would have been led by lesser Marines.

True, for most anyways, but I reckon that any Space Marine capable of leading such a force would know that another Heresy-type event wouldn't be in their best interests. I can't see, for example, Dante, Calgar or Grimnar doing that...

Just Dave wrote:True, for most anyways, but I reckon that any Space Marine capable of leading such a force would know that another Heresy-type event wouldn't be in their best interests. I can't see, for example, Dante, Calgar or Grimnar doing that...

But those are RECENT heroes. Ten thousand years is a long time for legions to stay loyal, especially with no primarchs or Emperor to guide them. And Marines have a history of turning to chaos.

Pardon me for using a game as evidence, but...

Melissia wrote: Ten thousand years is a long time for legions to stay loyal, especially with no primarchs or Emperor to guide them. And Marines have a history of turning to chaos.

Pardon me for using a game as evidence, but...

But they're blood ravens.

Guard and PDF have also a history turning to chaos....

the same goes for Inquisitors..

members of the mechanicum...

All of them part of the imperium for some millenia.

A different form of organization can help, but it cannot provide loyality as automated benefit.
The choice is always personal. Space marines have a higher chance to induce loyality as they may provide the ressources to
decide on facts rather then Myths.

Not really. Half of all marines, roughly speaking, turned to chaos in the Horus Heresy. While the Mechanicus has a far worse track record than that (IIRC, most of the Mechanicus went with Chaos), the Guard, the Inquisition, and so on, have never had such an event happen.

Marines being so independent means that they are more likely to turn to chaos than if they were subbordinate to another authority IMO.

Melissia wrote:Not really. Half of all marines, roughly speaking, turned to chaos in the Horus Heresy. While the Mechanicus has a far worse track record than that (IIRC, most of the Mechanicus went with Chaos), the Guard, the Inquisition, and so on, have never had such an event happen.

Marines being so independent means that they are more likely to turn to chaos than if they were subbordinate to another authority IMO.

More like 30-40% turned, as the legions lost about 30% of their strength when sorting out those loyal to the throne.

A lot of the Guard turned at HH, as the imperium lost half of its forces there.

Marines are subordinate to the Emperor.

Without Codex astartes, other forms could be established maybe some sort of High command where all military action is centralized.
Its just the communication across a vast Imperium preventing a centralized staff.
So they're indepency is based on the need to act on their own as any warning/emergency call would take too long to relay through the imperial bureaucracy. It takes months/years until the IG reacts.

Legions would be independent. Chapters are independent. The split just reduces the losses and the threat-level.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:True, for most anyways, but I reckon that any Space Marine capable of leading such a force would know that another Heresy-type event wouldn't be in their best interests. I can't see, for example, Dante, Calgar or Grimnar doing that...

But those are RECENT heroes. Ten thousand years is a long time for legions to stay loyal, especially with no primarchs or Emperor to guide them. And Marines have a history of turning to chaos.

Pardon me for using a game as evidence, but...

Spoiler:

A good portion of the Blood Ravens have unwittingly turned to chaos due to a string of events circling around the person who is now their chapter master.

Wrong. It was their chief librarian. And he was stuck on a space hulk, in the warp with a Greater Daemon of Nurgle. And when you say 'good portion'. captain Diomedes, who followed the Librarian was turned back to the light.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The imperium would've floundered without the Codex Astartes, which is> than the Tactica Imperialis. Though it is proved to be a weakness, as at times movements can be predicted. This was exploited by Huron Blackheart

karimabuseer wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:True, for most anyways, but I reckon that any Space Marine capable of leading such a force would know that another Heresy-type event wouldn't be in their best interests. I can't see, for example, Dante, Calgar or Grimnar doing that...

But those are RECENT heroes. Ten thousand years is a long time for legions to stay loyal, especially with no primarchs or Emperor to guide them. And Marines have a history of turning to chaos.

Pardon me for using a game as evidence, but...

Spoiler:

A good portion of the Blood Ravens have unwittingly turned to chaos due to a string of events circling around the person who is now their chapter master.

Wrong. It was their chief librarian.

I can see it turning out similar to the Age of Apostasy if they didn't split them up. One eventually finds himself in power of a legion and after a while it goes to his head. Greed sets in and he goes for the high lords of terra, insisting that as they were made in the Emperor's image the Space Marines should be in charge or something like that.

Also not all the Primarchs are dead, some are just thrown in stasis

Melissia wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:True, for most anyways, but I reckon that any Space Marine capable of leading such a force would know that another Heresy-type event wouldn't be in their best interests. I can't see, for example, Dante, Calgar or Grimnar doing that...

But those are RECENT heroes. Ten thousand years is a long time for legions to stay loyal, especially with no primarchs or Emperor to guide them. And Marines have a history of turning to chaos.

Pardon me for using a game as evidence, but...

Spoiler:

A good portion of the Blood Ravens have unwittingly turned to chaos due to a string of events circling around the person who is now their chapter master.

Wrong. It was their chief librarian.

Spoiler:

Who was their chapter master.

The same guy Most sincerere of apologies chap

Blood Ravens aren't exactly a codex chapter, as that shows. But they are fun, at least, partly BECAUSE of this.

actually Librarians become CMs fairly common.

the CM is just the most capable marine in the Chapter and that may just happen to be a Librarian.

the BAs have had their Chief librarian be their CM at one time.



The Blood ravens are unique in that the 2 offices are the same all the time.

I've always liked blood ravens, because THE MAJORITY OF THEM SPEAK LIKE THIS. I ALSO ACTUALLY THOUGHT GOTOS BOOK WEREN'T TOO BAD

DOES THIS MEAN THAT SPACE MARINES ARE THE SPAWN OF BRIAN BLESSED?!

THE ONLY HUMAN IN EXISTANCE TO SPEAK ONLY IN CAPS LOCK?!

Just Dave wrote:It's good to see such endorsement for raping and pillaging guys...

Of course I endorse rape and pillage, there's too few Vikings these days

S_P

Not so much the raping as the pillaging on my part, thanks. I'll have an extra serving of pillage instead.

Wuss...

Only jesting!

S_P