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I use to run a Tau army back during 3rd edition and then drifted away from 40K several years ago. I have recently come back into the hobby and have been dismayed to learn that Fire Warriors have been put on the back burner in most Tau armies. I wanted to start a thread that focus of the effective use of Fire Warriors other then a minimum squad jumping out of a Devil Fish on the last turn to claim an objective.

Please share successful Fire Warrior tactics and/or theories of new tactics that could but Fire Warrior back in the spotlight.

Note: Please stick to discussion tactics and refrain form army/unit bashing

Here are a few ideas get the ball rolling

1. Single markerlight platforms:

I have found that a single markerlight with a target lock has some nice uses. Sometimes pathfinders and stealth suit markerlight teams will give you more hits that you need, thus excess markerlights go to waste. I have found that a single markerlight hit is all I need to ensure my Broadside team hits, more is overkill. Another example is; by giving two Fire Warrior teams a single markerlight with a target lock I can ensure that hammer head hits home on an exposed transport and I can save my Pathfinders markerlights to strip the smoke cover from a Land Raider so my Broadsides can do their work.

2. Learn to use a pulse rifle!

Pulse rifles have two advantages: Most people focus on the fact they are strength 5. But don’t forget the extra 6’’ they have over most rapid-fire weapons. I have learned to view these facts as two separate advantages. Don’t fight MEQ, Guard, Orks, and Tyranids in the same way!

Fire warriors do not have the toughness hold up in a sustained firefight with MEQ or Guard. Strength 5 is great but you do not have enough shots to overcome MEQ armor or the Guards numbers, it will just become a slugfest you will eventually lose. When fighting these forces you need to be mobile. Hover at 25+ inches and take shots. You force you opponent to make a decision, rely on heavy weapons and trade shots (an attractive choice for you if you are in cover and supported with markerlights) or move in to range and try to engage. If they stay put, it is good because that is a firefight you can win. If they move it is great because that is a unit that is not shooting at anyone that turn. As soon as you enemy gets with in 24 inches jump into a Devilfish and relocate and start the frustrating (for your opponent) cycle starts over, all the while you are pounding way with crisis suits and rail guns…

With Orks and Tyranids it is a different story, range is nice but Strength 5 is your friend! The cost equivalent for 12 bonded Fire Warriors with a Shas’Ui is 23 Hormagauts or Ork. With Orks you mostly likely will get 2 shots before they are can threaten you with a charge, save your markerlight (use them to take down Kans, Dreads, and Trucks) odds are you will get 8 kills. When you are faced with the remaining 15 Orks do not fall back, move forward! With two marker light hits you are looking 13 kills on average. Even if the 2 remaining Orks pass their moral check and charge the next turn, with 12 Fire Warriors, you have a decent chance of winning the combat before the Orks can even hit due to better initiative.

Hormagauts are a little different, you only get one shot so make it count! Even if you only can spare enough markerlights for one hit make sure use it, that will still gives you 6 kills (and you need every kill you can get). On you next turn you can run into Devilfish and be safe, but you won’t be able to relocate too well because the bugs are so fast. But if there no other immediate threat you can move forward you next turn and rapid fire with markerlight support. Odds are you will get 17 kills, which should take care of the remaining pests. Even if 1 or 2 are left odds are you will win the close combat with only a loss or two.

Ugh..where to start. While I commend you for rethinking firewarriors, as all conventions need to be challenged occasionally, there's a good reason firewarriors are kept in devilfish, and often taken in minimal amount. They aren't efficient enough (cost to killy ratio) to be taken in a Tau army for that purpose. Let's discuss.

First:

Zookie wrote:...the effective use of Fire Warriors other then a minimum squad jumping out of a Devil Fish on the last turn to claim an objective.

Firewarriors (any scoring unit, really) don't need to jump out of vehicles to claim objectives. The vehicle counts as scoring if occupied by a scoring unit. Firewarriors are MUCH safer in the devilfish than standing around on an objective.

The biggest issue is that firewarriors don't pull their weight in the list. They are shoehorned into providing only one real role to the army (aside from scoring) because of their lack of special/heavy weapons, and that is killing light infantry, the least useful of all roles. To be very effective in this role, they need to get close (rapid fire), but they crumple easily in melee and aren't resistant to small arms fire, especially with their average leadership.

To be effective in any of their primary roles (grabbing objectives, killing weakened squads, staying alive) they need a very expensive transport. It's expensive because it's from an older codex, when transports cost a lot. Does it really compare, point for point, with 40 point rhinos and 55 point chimeras? Heck, even THOSE models assist in diversifying the transported squad's role by giving options of anti-tank and anti-horde weapons. Again, the Tau unit is shoehorned into the light-infantry killing role.

These two overpriced units then take points away from the units you NEED to be successful...railguns for heavy armor/MCs and crisis suits for elite troops and light armor. Point for point, kroot provide a much more versatile scoring unit that can screen your more valuable assets and better kill hordes (when bunkered in cover, of course). In your ork scenario, the equivalent points in kroot is about 20...they'll kill 5 orks at long range, 10 rapid firing, 12 if they charge and 8 if charged.

Zookie wrote: 1. Single markerlight platforms:

The thought process is good, to an extent, but a full firewarrior squad (as you propose) is what...145 points or something? 12 FW, shas'ui, bonding knife, markerlight, target lock? That's an awful lot for 1 markerlight. Now, I understand the firewarriors can shoot, too, but what do they shoot at when facing, say, mechanized IG? 30" isn't that far, rangewise, and even if they can reach an IG squad (in cover), you'll kill what...2-3 models? Honestly, most armies will ignore your firewarriors for a turn or two as they focus everything on your only killy elements (mentioned above) and then just run rampant amoungst your firewarriors.

Zookie wrote:2. Learn to use a pulse rifle!

Fire warriors do not have the toughness hold up in a sustained firefight with MEQ or Guard. Strength 5 is great but you do not have enough shots to overcome MEQ armor or the Guards numbers, it will just become a slugfest you will eventually lose. When fighting these forces you need to be mobile. Hover at 25+ inches and take shots.

Trying to "hover" in the 25-30" range band is pretty tough, assuming you want to stay in cover and your IG opponent has a brain and has his dismounted infantry in cover. You can't move and shoot, and your opponent won't care to.

Zookie wrote:You force you opponent to make a decision, rely on heavy weapons and trade shots (an attractive choice for you if you are in cover and supported with markerlights) or move in to range and try to engage.

There's no decision for an IG player. If he has dismounted infantry with heavy weapons, his only goal is killing your suits/railguns. They sit and shoot heavies at them and ignore the 2-3 casualties a turn your FWs inflict.

Zookie wrote:As soon as you enemy gets with in 24 inches jump into a Devilfish and relocate and start the frustrating (for your opponent) cycle starts over, all the while you are pounding way with crisis suits and rail guns…

Whoa, so you have 240+ points of unit tying up an IG squad with heavy weapon (about 70 points) and you think you're winning?

Zookie wrote:With Orks and Tyranids it is a different story...With two marker light hits you are looking 13 kills on average. Even if the 2 remaining Orks pass their moral check and charge the next turn, with 12 Fire Warriors, you have a decent chance of winning the combat before the Orks can even hit due to better initiative.

First of all, orks and Tau both have I2 I believe, but charging orks get +1 I (and strength), so the regular ones will swing first. Regardless, notice how you suddenly added 2 markerlights to the equation. The moving squad can't use theirs, so how much support does this squad need? Assuming a huge ork horde, your other FW squads are moving forward, too, so they can't fire their markerlights, either.

Zookie wrote:Hormagauts are a little different, you only get one shot so make it count! Even if you only can spare enough markerlights for one hit make sure use it, that will still gives you 6 kills (and you need every kill you can get). On you next turn you can run into Devilfish and be safe, but you won’t be able to relocate too well because the bugs are so fast. But if there no other immediate threat you can move forward you next turn and rapid fire with markerlight support. Odds are you will get 17 kills, which should take care of the remaining pests. Even if 1 or 2 are left odds are you will win the close combat with only a loss or two.

This firewarrior squad gets markerlight support AND a devilfish when facing only the equivalent of the FW squad worth of gaunts. To be fair, we should add, perhaps, FNP to the gaunts from a tervigon, or maybe some guard (tyrant guard? brood guard?) with indirect firing str 8 to down the devilfish?

So, what does it boil down to? Firewarriors in devilfish make decent objective-grabbers, so you take a squad or two of minimum numbers so they can grab things in the open (where kroot will get smoked), hide crisis suits and try to free up points for the real killers in the army. Not bashing the unit, just giving an honest assessment of a unit from a fairly old codex that hasn't aged well.

MagicJuggler's Fish of Fury Analysis:

"La-de-da-da-da, I'm going to spend about 200+ points on a dedicated anti-infantry unit that is vulnerable to melee or being routed by shooting, in a game known increasingly for mechanized warfare, give them an expensive transport that's *only* resiliant to long-range fire, and drive said transport into enemy Meltagun range, and unload the infantry in a clustered formation to deliver point-blank fire while hoping they don't get blasted by artillery or assaulted. Nothing could possibly go wrong..."

There are only three uses for FW:

1. Minimum size objective grabbers in a dfish (often called a scorefish)

2. 2-3 max sized units in Dfish with SMS, MT, Dpods, and TA (often called a warfish) to move together and, with markerlight support from a Pathfinder unit or SMT to boost BS, hop out and rapid fire 48+ BS 5 shots into a unit Fish of Fury style

3. Static 'gun line' or 'castle'

Option 3 doesn't work well, and option 2 is extremely expensive, leaving option 1. as the best overall choice. There are still people who swear by FoF, but I'd rather use the points to take more Crisis suits.

I am very sorry to say that Grimaldi is right, even though sometimes FWs get lucky (squad of 8 rapid fired and took out 5 seer council), they will get beat down by almost every infantry unit in warhammer 40k.

All I do is take 2 squads of 6-8 in the 1750 range with 15 kroot. All the FWs really do is sit in their warfish and shield crisis suits and on turn three start zooming up to objectives. They are not my least favorite unit in the codex (I'm looking at you stealth team), but they do almost nothing to increase your overall killiness

Thanks for the honest assessment, I am not advocating that Fire Warriors are an underused super unit. I realize that in the examples I referred to full 12 member teams and always paired them with Devilfish, this need not be the case. Certainly with the single Markerlight concept. There is nothing wrong with a 6 man team. What I am asking for is to try to look past convention and throw some alternative ideas around. 40k is a big game and one of the beauties is that people dream up new ideas all the time. I can remember when most people I talked to thought Piranhas were worthless and nobody deepstriked with Tau.

And nowadays you shouldn't deepstrike with Tau still; they are not Tyranids or Blood Angels and don't have the ability to afford being isolated near the enemy ranks.

Piranhas are useful though for putting earlygame pressure on your foe, and roadblocking enemy Land Raiders/Rhinos.

Well, if you wanted to be wacky you can load up around 6 FWs with a bonding knife and EMP grenades all around in a cheap fish. Run them up to a vehicle and block LOS with the fish. The next turn you can assualt that vehicle and if you hit, 5-6 is a penetrating hit!

Against most vehicles, this is the same for Krak Grenades. Those are built into many units costs; doing this would also have the opportunity cost that you're in meltagun range, and operates off the assumption the enemy won't drive their vehicle away...

Thanks for playing along, Mythological. I have not ever used EMC grenades does anyone have an success with them that they would like to relate?

Here's an intriguing question that I've been trying to playtest and figure out.

Would/Can Pulse Carbines be more appropriate to the "minimum squads in Devilfish" operation?

While I do lose out on the rapid fire ability, does the gain of pinning help win anything in their favor?
Since the Devilfish will often be popped Turn3-4 (as my more tasty targets were dropped T2), can the pinning help just enough to make a difference?

Hmmm... I have not used Pulse Carbines (The short range make me nervous) Anybody with more guts then me use them with success?

I would recommend looking up some of Dashofpepper's old topics on tau. He posted prolifically on Tau gunlines and utilized firewarriors exclusively, as oppossed to the more popular option of kroot.

I basically lifted his ideas and turned my tau army from a disjointed army into a mean machine that was feared by my friends.

Some people like them. for me there are too many fearless units in the game, and everyone else seems to have leadership 9-10. With plenty of markerlights it's viable against some armies, but remember you also have to wound for it to have any effect. Assuming you are using the markers to tank an enemy units leadership and not to boost BS, 6 carbines at BS 3 is certainly not guaranteed to cause a wound against power armor.

MagicJuggler wrote:And nowadays you shouldn't deepstrike with Tau still; they are not Tyranids or Blood Angels and don't have the ability to afford being isolated near the enemy ranks.

Piranhas are useful though for putting earlygame pressure on your foe, and roadblocking enemy Land Raiders/Rhinos.

Magic, you need to learn to put IMO, in front of statements that are opinion as opposed to fact. I know you and I see differently on this and respect such but when you try to state your opinion as fact to newer(More impressionable) players it bothers me.

For those of you that don't know my stance on this subject, let me explain:
IMO, the reason many Tau players don't do as well as they could is because they take a purely defensive mindset. You don't win battles consistently by always being on the defensive. The Tau, again IMO, are one of the best deepstrike armies out there due to the ease of having precise strikes(Ph Dfish=reroll). To not use this ability is to tie your feet together while in a battle with a power house fighter that that outclasses you in every respect except mobility and range. Basically your commiting yourself to a losing battle by not using every bit of mobility you have.

Think about it another way, "What would a Posi-relay ordered second turn re-rollable deep-strike by 3 Deathrains with targ locks each do to the rear armour of an IG Leaf Blowers FA squsdrons of tanks?

I don't ask anyone to think of this as an absolute, just as a possible course of action when and if you feel the situation calls for it. More simply, it is just an idea.

Zookie wrote:Thanks for playing along, Mythological. I have not ever used EMP(DIXED IT FOR YOU) grenades does anyone have an success with them that they would like to relate?

Have taken out 5 Monoliths, 2-3 Land Radiers(One was immobilized), and 2 dreadnoughts with them. People get used to Tau players not using them and will be careless in their approach to the FW's.

Don't get me wrong. This is not so much a successful tactic as a last ditch effort when things go wrong. I normally hide one such unit in my army as a keep my opponent guessing tactic(Not a prob because each of my squads is distintive).

In_Theory wrote:Here's an intriguing question that I've been trying to playtest and figure out.

Would/Can Pulse Carbines be more appropriate to the "minimum squads in Devilfish" operation?

While I do lose out on the rapid fire ability, does the gain of pinning help win anything in their favor?
Since the Devilfish will often be popped Turn3-4 (as my more tasty targets were dropped T2), can the pinning help just enough to make a difference?

A possible answer to this question would be the Leap-Frog(aka Hop Scotching) technique. Leap-Frogging exploits the D-fish being a skimmer the models side door design to move two units of infantry across the board. It woeks best with a FW carbine team and a FW rifle team. Then you do this:

During Deployment you set the FW teams on each side of the Warfish according to how your opponent deployed or you feel he will deploy. First turn you load the FW team equipped with Carbines into the Warfish and hop the transport over and diagaonally forward of the other FW team to a point about 6" away. Your Rifle team spends first turn firing to full range. The second turn you disembark the carbine unit on the side opposite from the Rifle team. Then you move the Rifle team to within 2" of the warfish and embark them. Next you hop the loaded warfish to the other side of the carbine team about 6" away. Repeat as necessary

Doing this exploits the extra movement of the vehicles width and cycles your units to keep them from getting hammered every turn.


@OP-Is this what you were looking for Zookie? I hope it helps.

Later

BTW, Pulse Rifles are not just anti-light infantry, they do a good number on AV 10 squadron vehicles. Some thing to keep in mind whe you feel that your Deathrains are over worked trying to take out Land speeders and rihno spam.

Think about it another way, "What would a Posi-relay ordered second turn re-rollable deep-strike by 3 Deathrains with targ locks each do to the rear armour of an IG Leaf Blowers FA squsdrons of tanks?

Ha, do you want the answer to that couched in terms of before or after the inquisitor Lord /w 2 mystics has a nearby unit fire on the deepstriking unit with a bunch of Str 8 AP 1 weapons before you get to shoot?

Deep striking is a funny beast. It can be great, it can be mediocre, or it can end in disaster. The Pathfinder Devilfish is certainly an asset for deep striking, however everyone knows this and a smart general is going to work to neutralize that advantage. And just as Tau have good skimmers, but Eldar have better, so to are Tau good at Deep striking, but Space Marines are better. Drop pods are the perfect method to get a melta inside the 12" vulnerability of the Disruption pods and take away the Tau's re-rolls on turn one.

And don't get me wrong, I have a strong win record with Tau, I've won local tournaments with Tau in 5th edition. But I also recognize the weaknesses of the army. We're supposed to be a highly mobile elite shooting army. But against many of the new Codex, we loose out in all three categories, We're out gunned, out ran, and out maneuvered.

Kroot Loops wrote:
Ha, do you want the answer to that couched in terms of before or after the inquisitor Lord /w 2 mystics has a nearby unit fire on the deepstriking unit with a bunch of Str 8 AP 1 weapons before you get to shoot?

Simple, It is second turn and the IG have advanced their Wall to at least mid-board. Meltas have to be in tange to hit you The missile pods can be effective from way back. You just make sure that any melta units are more than 12" away. Seriously, this is your boogey man to deep striking?

Kroot Loops wrote:
Deep striking is a funny beast. It can be great, it can be mediocre, or it can end in disaster. The Pathfinder Devilfish is certainly an asset for deep striking, however everyone knows this and a smart general is going to work to neutralize that advantage. And just as Tau have good skimmers, but Eldar have better, so to are Tau good at Deep striking, but Space Marines are better. Drop pods are the perfect method to get a melta inside the 12" vulnerability of the Disruption pods and take away the Tau's re-rolls on turn one.

What do you do with Broadsides? You bubble wrap them. Runing stacked unit protective layers shouldn't be that foriegn of a concept. Deny the 12" in an 180 degree arc, on the front half of the vehicle. Remember Drop Pods take up a sizeable area to land. Learn the bottim measurements so that you never leave that large of a gap between your screening units.

I've had reasonable success using them as gunlines against light VEHICLES (rather than just light infantry). S5 isn't that bad at 30inch range when you have a whole squad of them. Useful against buggies, Landspeeders, etc...

focusedfire wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:
Ha, do you want the answer to that couched in terms of before or after the inquisitor Lord /w 2 mystics has a nearby unit fire on the deepstriking unit with a bunch of Str 8 AP 1 weapons before you get to shoot?

Simple, It is second turn and the IG have advanced their Wall to at least mid-board. Meltas have to be in tange to hit you The missile pods can be effective from way back. You just make sure that any melta units are more than 12" away. Seriously, this is your boogey man to deep striking?

Seriously, yes. Assuming that the IG are always going to advance on you is a stretch, but very well, You're more than 12" away, nominate the lrbt to drop a str 8 AP 3 pie plate on them instead.

Kroot Loops wrote:
Deep striking is a funny beast. It can be great, it can be mediocre, or it can end in disaster. The Pathfinder Devilfish is certainly an asset for deep striking, however everyone knows this and a smart general is going to work to neutralize that advantage. And just as Tau have good skimmers, but Eldar have better, so to are Tau good at Deep striking, but Space Marines are better. Drop pods are the perfect method to get a melta inside the 12" vulnerability of the Disruption pods and take away the Tau's re-rolls on turn one.

What do you do with Broadsides? You bubble wrap them. Runing stacked unit protective layers shouldn't be that foriegn of a concept. Deny the 12" in an 180 degree arc, on the front half of the vehicle. Remember Drop Pods take up a sizeable area to land. Learn the bottim measurements so that you never leave that large of a gap between your screening units.

Kroot Loops wrote: Seriously, yes. Assuming that the IG are always going to advance on you is a stretch, but very well, You're more than 12" away, nominate the lrbt to drop a str 8 AP 3 pie plate on them instead.

This is completely dependent upon what your opponent is doing with those Russes. I am often able to deep strike right next to the Russes because they are left alone in the back field. Blast weapons are not good sniper weapons, even large blast ordinance ones.

Deep striking is a counter-punching technique where-in you exploit the openings your opponent gives you during his attack. Now, you don't rely upon your opponent to always give you the perfect opening, sometimes you have to create that opening with a direct focused attack on the area that needs to be cleared.

Then we haven't covered LoS Blocking Terrain, yet.

Kroot Loops wrote:Even bubble wrapping only 180 degrees of a dfish out to 12" takes a large squad. It's doable but it's also a lot of points invested into a relatively minor upgrade, especially if your deepstriking with a 36" range weapon. A clever opponent will use the drop pod to disrupt your line of sight, no los, no pos relay.

That is a lot of pods to block the LoS. I'd be tickled pink if my opponent pulled such a boneheaded manuver. If he is investing 3 DP's to block my LoS to "one" of my Beacon Fish then I move and leave those forces stranded on foot. Drop pods can be countered just as every other tactic or ploy.

I'm not saying that these are perfect, Just that if you know what your enemy has and is capable of then your list of tactical options should grow, not shrink. File all of the tactical options away in your mental rolo-dex(Flash Memory) and use depending upon the situation and more importantly your opponent.

Thats right, your opponent. During tourney's you should focus on your game but every now and then look around the room and note the various tables and who is being aggressive and who is playing a slower paced strategy.