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Eldar singing spears are str 9 as well, and also capable of harming a monolith in close comabt.

But shooting is usually the much better option to take against a monolith.

As the Empire is my witness, I can't actually believe I'm doing this but maybe, just maybe, Ghaz (seriously this painful) just might have a ... point....

A model assaults with its strength unless the weapon itself has a specified stength value.  For example, a Necron uses its strength to assault regardless of what weapon it uses (Staff of Light or Warscythe).

Reading the rules for the Power Fist/Claw (page 46 of the BGB), the power weapon doubles the model's strength.  The RAW doesn't state the power fist/claw has a strength, it states the model's strength is doubled.  For the BGB, page 46, "It doubles the user's Strength (up to a maximum of 10), ignoring Armour Saves.  Only the user's basic Strength is doubled - any additional bonus for special abilities are added afterwards."  Nothing in that description states the power fist has a strength.

So a model with a power fist strikes at is augmented strength (2xS)  instead of its unaugmented strength (S).  So when assaulting the Monolith the model is restricted to its unaugmented strength.  At least, per the RAW.

As pointed out by Yak, Flavius, Hellfury, and others, the FAQ states that any augmentations to the strength of a weapon are ignored when trying to penetrate a monolith. A power fist does not have a strength. The (doubled) strength of the model is used, and the FAQ ruling does not prevent that.

I'm interested in the Melta Bomb thing. The Drop Zone is correct in that it isn't a weapon per se.
It's a STR 8 attack for sure and it's an attack with 2d6 armour pen but that doesn't make it a weapon that is gaining an extra die of damage.
Does it?

Personally I think that's just quibbling over semantics myself, but I would not have a problem with however my opponent would want to play it. I see a close combat weapon's strength being that of the wielder. After all, you're hitting the Monolith with the power fist, not your bare hand.


Can you find rules for armor penetration for something that is not a weapon? If you use the rules for weapons to determine armor penetration then it is also subject to the rules for weapons that say that you do not get any bonuse dice when attacking the Monolith.

Yeah, Melta Bombs.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 01/21/2007 8:39 AM

Can you find rules for armor penetration for something that is not a weapon? If you use the rules for weapons to determine armor penetration then it is also subject to the rules for weapons that say that you do not get any bonuse dice when attacking the Monolith.

Yeah, Melta Bombs.

No, not 'Melta Bombs'.  Do they tell you exactly what the 8+2D6 AP does to a vehicle?  No.  You have to use 'Armor Penetration' rules to find out what the melta bomb's AP does.

man you dont bother to read anything do you?

it is not a bonus it is that way all the time... show me one just one single instance where a melta bomb gets 1d6 for armor penetration you cannot find it because it doesnt exist its always 2d6 it is never a bonus just like the other exception to the rule

 

the melta gets 2d6 all the time just like the assassins turbo penetrator round face it thats the right way to do it gw just wont change it and i stated as such so drop it

 

and quit being adversarial and being stupid with your str8 ig comment you know i was giving stats for a space marine..only you would try to be such an ass on purpose

Posted By The Drop Zone on 01/21/2007 4:56 PM

man you dont bother to read anything do you?

it is not a bonus it is that way all the time... show me one just one single instance where a melta bomb gets 1d6 for armor penetration you cannot find it because it doesnt exist its always 2d6 it is never a bonus just like the other exception to the rule

 

the melta gets 2d6 all the time just like the assassins turbo penetrator round face it thats the right way to do it gw just wont change it and i stated as such so drop it

 

and quit being adversarial and being stupid with your str8 ig comment you know i was giving stats for a space marine..only you would try to be such an ass on purpose

Obviously it's you who doesn't bother to read anything.  It doesn't matter if it get's it all of the time or not.  Unless it follows the Armor Penetration rules as laid out on page 65 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook then it is a bonus.  By your claims, tankbusta bonbz should get their 6+(D6x2) armor penetration then because they are like that all of the time.  Yet the FAQ makes it clear that they do not.  Why is that?  Because if it does not follow the rules on page 65 which states that you "... roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength..." then is is indeed a bonus no matter whether or not the weapon or grenade gets it all of the time or not.

Perhaps you are the one who should stop being stupid.

only you would be such an idiot Ghaz as to claim a normal 2d6 as a bonus.., there is no bonus, you can go quote whatever page number you want it doesnt add a d6 for tanks it doesnt add a d6 for skimmers it does 2d6 period, end of sentance. there is no bonus mentioned anywhere in its decription so face it your wrong yet again ....you are so misguided im glad you are not in my area nor do you come to my store your type of play and attitude i would have thrown you out on day one..

you are the type of player even when confronted and shown you are wrong will never back down you have to contanstly harangue and insult those who have shown you the fact that the melta bomb is the same in all aspects as the other exception to this rule for monoliths...

 

no where did i ever say it was the only one, im sure there are other exceptions but in this case and this is the case i proposed and brought up it is in fact something that gw should have fixed and they wont...so whats your point?

your arguing over something that should be but isnt and no one says it is, just something that should be, you got a problem with that ? tuff, if you do who cares?

Here's the FAQs text in case anyone is wondering.

"When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith."

Come back when you can act like an adult and explain why a melta bomb should get it's 2D6 against the Monolith's Living Metal because it's 'normal' for them while tankbusta bombz do not get their D6x2 against the Monolith's Living Metal which is also 'normal' for them. So why does one get the bonus while the other one does not?

As for the rest of your hypocrisy, look in the mirror and you'll see exactly the type of player your claiming that I am. I've clearly shown you that anything that does not follow the basic rules for armor penetration on page 65 of the rules is bonus penetration. Deal with it.

Drop zone, you write like a petulant child, try making a case instead of attacking Ghaz. I will offer the opportunity for you to show you are not a petulant child, demonstrate it by not writing another personal attack in this thread.

...2d6 as a bonus...so face it your wrong yet again ...

Ghaz is not wrong.  Weapon penetration is defined in the book as S+D6, anything that doesn't do that is getting a bonus.

 Way farer has summed it up well by quoting the FAQ, it's clear: Any Bonus.

i dont have to show you GHAZ gw already did there is a clear cut example of an exception to the monoliths living metal rule and the melta bomb is the same way deal with that.

and shove your insults up your fourth point of contact

i never claimed tank bustas dont get their bonus fool! you assumed on your own they dont.

An opportunity missed, a sad thing.

This was a good thread before Drop Zone arrived. I await its closure.

Posted By Wayfarer on 01/21/2007 5:37 PM

Here's the FAQs text in case anyone is wondering.

"When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith."

and yet you posted that and left out the exception to that rule which is

the only exception is the vindicare assassins turbo penetrator round, as this shell is not bouns pentration as such..( stick that in your ear Ghaz )

 

the melta bomb follows the same logic among other thngs

Posted By Augustus on 01/21/2007 6:01 PM

An opportunity missed, a sad thing.

This was a good thread before Drop Zone arrived. I await its closure.

exscuse me? if you dont like it then leave your  rude comments somewhere else

 

i didnt know this was your personal forum and no one was allowed to express differing views

 

Drop zone, you write like a petulant child, try making a case instead of attacking Ghaz. I will offer the opportunity for you to show you are not a petulant child, demonstrate it by not writing another personal attack in this thread.

 

then you stop making further attacks and stop poosting in here

...2d6 as a bonus...so face it your wrong yet again ...it is not a bonus leanr firts what a bonus is then come back and reply intelligently if you can . a bonus is an added benefit when it is always 2d6 where is the bonus?

Ghaz is not wrong.  Weapon penetration is defined in the book as S+D6, anything that doesn't do that is getting a bonus.

the turbo round from the vc as defined by gw says its not so first learn the rule then try to solidify your claim

 Way farer has summed it up well by quoting the FAQ, it's clear: Any Bonus.

 

then you need to go read the faq in its entirety until you do stop posting misinformation on this forum

"The only exception..." Being the key phrasing there.

Ahhh yes. I love it when predicitions come true.

This thread was gauranteed not to go anywhere but south. The outcome was inevitable.

Posted By Wayfarer on 01/21/2007 6:07 PM
"The only exception..." Being the key phrasing there.

yes i said that... i also stated if you would care to read that i approached gw with this and they said that yes i was correct in my facts they would not change it i never claimed it did work i said it should work

big difference there

Peace be with you Drop Zone.

And exactly who was that in GW you approached? A roolzboy? Please. There wrong more often that right and not official to boot. You're wanting us to agree with a supposed 'clarification' that only you have? Get real.

Guess y'all gonna hafta agree ta disagree.

There's no makin up anyone's mind on this one.

Posted By Ghaz on 01/21/2007 7:14 PM

i approached gw with this and they said that yes i was correct i

And exactly who was that in GW you approached? A roolzboy? Please. There wrong more often that right and not official to boot. You're wanting us to agree with a supposed 'clarification' that only you have? Get real.

you just cant let it go can you? even when shown by official faq what the pretense is and backed up by the same eveidence in what a melta bomb is you just cant let it go and say .. yes maybe it should work but they say no so oh well

no you have be adversarial, and blatentlystubborn

and not that youll beleive this anyways but does pete haines count? is his opinion good enough for you ?probably not since he didnt ask you if it was ok first huh ?