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I believe Adv Squad Leader was sold to Multi Man Publishing...... all of those great AH (not to mention SPI, GDW, etc..) titles lost forever (except for ebay).

Posted By fullheadofhair on 07/30/2007 11:57 PM
whilst I agree with fat and lazy, they missed out arrogance - which to me is the biggest reason they are not doing well. Took them two years to realize? 

I think my biggest concern is the lack of specifity in Kirby's little speech.

Read it closely, it doesn't actually mean anything.  It's like a political speech.  'Fat and lazy?'  What does that mean?  What specificially were the problems?  'Work Harder?'  what does that mean?  What areas need im provement, and in what way?

His speech rings to me like someone who is just trying to calm and placate people, but the way I want to be calmed and placated is by knowning what they PLAN TO DO, not by political meaningless jabber.

I think it would go a long way for their business if Games-Workshop would rethink the amount of monetary commitment needed just to begin playing this game. To get into 40k, or Fantasy, you spend how many hundreds of dollars?

Why, just for a rulebook and an army book to get started you have already spent $105 CAD. And you've got no miniatures. You're going to need boxes and boxes of those, so just getting started is a $300 affair. A friend of mine played 40k for many years but it took me at least five or six years of being exposed to it by him before I finally thought it was worth getting into it myself. How does someone who is just testing the water justify that?

It would do them much good if they created $50 starter boxes for their armies. You get some plastic sprues of troops and a sheet with quick-play rules which are streamlined designed to have fun games with fewer troops, the way Warbands allows a person to get into Fantasy with 250, not 2500, points of troops. Skull Pass and such are a good start but most folks want to pick their own army, not just play the two they want you to.

I've wondered if "focusing more on the core product" isn't actually a mistake.  I'd like to see them pushing some of the Specialist games in WD again.  That'd get people buying beyond their core armies in WHFB and WH40K.  Necromunda and Mordheim were also good gateway games that allowed that inexpensive introduction into the hobby. 

One thing I have noticed WD doing that I think is a good idea is padding the LotR section (which is probably still a mandatory size by contract) with more generic articles: painting guides, building "LotR" tables that would work for other games, etc.  That frees up the other section to run more content (psst, White Dwarf: run more content).

Posted By jfrazell on 07/31/2007 8:38 AM
You're all daft. To remain profitable they would wack all nonperforming lines (like...orks), simplify the game, and push it into the big boxes. I'm thinking Necrons and Marines. Marines for Da Win!

I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but saying stuff like that makes me want to pick up my choppa and go to zoggin' town on ya.  

The sad thing is that it would probably be a winner, sales wise.  C'tan vs. Primarch, just in time for Holiday '09!

A view from a former power gamer who works in the industry: 

On operating costs:  When I worked for a chinese metal company a few years ago, one of the biggest factors the company faced was rising operating costs.  Because the demand for metal in China is so high, raw metal prices continually went up and up.  I started work at that company in 2002.  By 2004, raw metal prices had more than tripled because of the stupid high demand for raw metal.  On top of that, plastic tooling is extremely expensive.  Everyone is of the impression that plastic is easier and cheaper.  If that's so, how come no other company does plastic?  The reality is that plastic is only cost effective in bulk in the long term.  In the short term, producing plastic is a huge money sink, which is why so few companies do it.  Detailed plastic is its own nightmare.  People think that you can make some sculpt and make plastics easily.  Well, yes, yes you can...if you stick with things like resin.  You get what you pay for, after all.

It is also well known that GW doesn't make its miniatures in China.  You know what, companies like Reaper Mini's do.  How much of a difference in operating cost?  It's hard to judge, because shutting down a factory and starting up a new one is also a colossal waste of money.  On top of that, even with wages the way they are, metal is more expensive than ever in China, and of course you must deal with quality control as well as shipping.  This is why Reaper is able to get such an awesome bottom line.  Even then, reaper sells it's figs for 3 to 4 dollars per fig.  A sister of battle blister costs 12 dollars and comes with 3 models. 

I asked my former boss why we didn't enter this market, and he told me that it was a difficult market to succeed in.  Little metal pieces are traditionally done by weight, aren't exactly a necessity, and on top of that require strenous quality control.  It made much more sense to do something easier like mailboxes or fence material. 

Pricing in general:  I too, as a gamer, always wished for lower prices.  The sad thing, is this market doesn't support lower prices.  I didn't want to really admit this, but it's the truth.  FIrst off, this isn't something essential.  You do not need to buy figs to eat, stay alive, drive your car, etc.  On top of that, consider how many models are inside a GW store.  Many of the boxes are there for months, even years.  Some never ever get sold.  Unlike places like Costco where things that don't sell immediately go away, GW can't exactly make things that don't sell well disappear...although I might add that they are starting to because GW is losing money.  When you sell a product, a large portion of that money goes to cost.  Unfortunately, gaming stores have bad overhead.  It is not the easiest industry to do well in.   Considering that a game store has to pay rent, power, buy the product, offer gaming tables, terrain, as well as pay for employees..it becomes a question of if lowering pricing is worth it. Consider this:  if GW lowers prices by half, slashes everything by 50%, would GW get double the sales?  Of all the people I know, even when I offered all of my friends 60% off retail on GW prices for a shop that closed down, one friend took me up on the offer.  One person.  Even with 60% off.  <shrug>  If you don't play you don't want to buy models, end of story.  If I offered gas or bread 60% off, that would be different. 

More pricing stuff:  GW does occasionally lower prices.  It doesn't get talked about much, but it does happen.  It's usually in some indirect form.  Like ravenwing bikes boxes.  Or new chaos terminators for $40, although those haven't been released yet. 

1. Kidding, sort of.
2. Thats the business plan an actual acquirer would follow. If they are going to compete with the bigboys they would have to dramatically reduce costs and focus, or else Catan will kick them all over the field revenues wise.

About specialist games:

The idea is good in general.  Take mordheim, for example.  Really popular when it came out.  Made a quick buck early, then tanked really fast.  Why?  Because people buy their 10 models and are done.  GW released a bunch of other junk for mordheim which we pretty much ignored.  

Oh, about dumbing down the game and catering to the younger crowd:  This is just a reality of understanding who's buying product and who isn't.  I hate to say it, but vets do not buy models.  None of my gamer friends buy new models.  Why do so, when the army you want to play is already finished and you don't want to start a new one?  Why buy new harlequins when you have the old ones?  Why buy the new wraithlord when I already have 3 of the old ones?  In general the vets have the most money, but spend the least.  It's not always true though.  I find when a shop is really well run that the regulars will buy from the shop.  But a shop needs to be well-run for such a thing to happen.  Honestly, most game shops are very poorly run...usually only people getting into the hobby buy models.   

I'm not sure how typical of a customer I am for GW, but I consistently buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of minis each year and I've been doing this since 1998.  The hobby for me is about converting and painting miniatures, so I'm always expanding an army or just buying cool new stuff because it catches my fancy. 

The problem is, less and less stuff over the past two years has been catching my fancy.  I'm not big on space marines and other than eldar, that's all I really remember anything else significant being produced in that time frame.  So my hobby dollars have largely been going to terrain manufacturers (folks like Armorcast, JR Miniatures, Tehnolog, etc.)  GW has been neglecting core customers like myself that have lots of disposible income and they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

 

 

"On operating costs:  When I worked for a chinese metal company a few years ago, one of the biggest factors the company faced was rising operating costs.  Because the demand for metal in China is so high, raw metal prices continually went up and up.  I started work at that company in 2002.  By 2004, raw metal prices had more than tripled because of the stupid high demand for raw metal... "

What I read of the actual press release seemed to make quite clear that materials were not a factor in the cost of the product.

More pricing stuff:  GW does occasionally lower prices.  It doesn't get talked about much, but it does happen.  It's usually in some indirect form.  Like ravenwing bikes boxes.  Or new chaos terminators for $40, although those haven't been released yet. 

Ouch. From what I understand, that was a misprint...the chaos terminators are 50.00.

Operating costs is a quite a lot more than just material prices.  If you look at the operating costs, it outstrips profits..obviously...But to say material costs were not a factor?  Hogwash. 

Materials, labor cost, hobby shop rent, all those things contribute to losing money.  Reaper sells a lot less than GW does, but their operating costs aren't nearly as stupid high.  A cheapy fisher price plastic mold is over $1000, and I'm talking about just the mold.  How much do you think the tooling costs?  It's never talked about, it's always lumped into operating costs. 

Plus, what the press release says doesn't change the fact that a global metal shortage still exists thanks to China's black hole.  It's just that places like walmart, Target, and home depot are pitting the suppliers against each other, so the suppliers take the squeeze.  That's why inflation in the US metal industry hasn't gotten silly yet.  GW doesn't have that luxury, and they waste more money than other companies. 

If you look at the pricing for Privateer Press models, they aren't any cheaper.  Privateer press doesn't sell as many models as GW does, but they are doing better.  Since the prices are about the same, obviously GW is spending much more than privateer press is per the model.  Where is the money going? 

 

Posted By Tazok on 08/01/2007 6:07 AM

I'm not sure how typical of a customer I am for GW, but I consistently buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of minis each year and I've been doing this since 1998.  The hobby for me is about converting and painting miniatures, so I'm always expanding an army or just buying cool new stuff because it catches my fancy. 

The problem is, less and less stuff over the past two years has been catching my fancy.  I'm not big on space marines and other than eldar, that's all I really remember anything else significant being produced in that time frame.  So my hobby dollars have largely been going to terrain manufacturers (folks like Armorcast, JR Miniatures, Tehnolog, etc.)  GW has been neglecting core customers like myself that have lots of disposible income and they have no one to blame but themselves.

 This is kinda my point about vets.  In the past two years you are spending less and less because you already have the models you like or want.  GW released a lot more than just marines in the past two years.  There are new high elf heroes, new orc models, new night goblins, empire flagellants, wizards, blah blah blah, so on and so forth.  FOr 40k, there are already 9+ armies that are out there that GW has to support.  What about something like the hammerhead?  If GW re-released the hammerhead every month, would there be more Tau players?  Probably not. 

Like I said, the vets are talking with their wallet.  When GW looks at the numbers and the breakdown of who buys what, what else do you expect? 

This is just the nature of niche markets.  You sell what the people want.  This isn't gas or bread which everyone will buy.  A select few people will buy a select few models.  And sadly those models are marines. 

Personally, I think it has more to do with their idiotic "release the whole army at once and then don't release another model" policy.

I buy things from Privateer Press almost monthly. Why? Because they tend to release an interesting new unit for my army every month.

The second problem is GWs insistence on redoing their same models over and over. Once you buy your Space Marines all they ever try to sell you is redone versions of the same units. How about coming out with new units? New ideas? New strategies?

There is no reason to buy any new GW products for existing vets. But that has more to do with GWs kooky sales practices than it does their willingness to buy. Privateer Press gets it. GW doesn't.

Here's my view on the GW crash. Contributors include:

1. Crappy rules that are too simplified and bland. They removed all the "fun" out of my 7th edition O&G. 40k rules games are mostly now just dice rolling and deployment. Not a lot of thought involved anymore. Makes me not want to play, and hence buy.

2. Rise of a large number of other competitors with better game systems. E.g. Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, FoW, etc. Also failing to realize that their product also competes with other leisure time activities such as video gaming and WoW in specific. Just because one is a mini game and one is a video game doesn't mean they don't compete against each other. They both compete for my time. The fact that I get more enjoyment out of other games makes me play those games instead of GW games.

3. Insistence on a slow release schedule of 1-2 armies all at once every six months. No new units/models for the army I play means I basically don't buy things on the cycle of years, rather than weeks/months with other companies. I don't care about DA, BA, Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, etc. I play O&G and Tau. When there are no releases for my army, I don't buy the stuff.

4. Ugly new models. This applies to O&G releases, but I liked them for their more comical older look. It was more unique. I was really looking forward to the Goblin Hero on giant squig until I saw it. Ugh. Comical I suppose, but in the way where they were trying to make it look menacing but it just looks dumb. Their whole new line does not appeal to me at all. New Harlies were nice, and I did buy some to paint, but not play. See 1 and 3.

5. Mismanagement of money and operations. Opening so many stores in the US so quickly was a horrible idea. The US is not like the UK. Refusing to move production off-shore is stupid from an economic perspective. When you fight the laws of comparative advantage you always lose.

6. Their marketing machine, if they even have one, is completely broken. No official forums, not accepting of customer feedback, basically giving vets the figurative finger in their public statements these last few years, etc. Doesn't exactly inspire me to spend money on them.

Really, the prices are not the core issue. The problems with the rules, release schedule, and game design mentality are the core issues. If you have a sub-par product compared to the competition, the only thing that could save it is lower prices, not higher prices like GW has been doing. Hence why I think a lot of people focus on the price, since it is the most obvious variable to change. Price in a niche market is certainly usually a secondary or tertiary concern, but it would be a mistake to say that it is not a concern at all. When you have competitors selling a better product for the same, or even less, you have a serious problem on your hands.

Also, I work in a very niche market as well, and the key to success has been, and always will be, providing a product that the customer is looking for (by listening to what they want), as well as providing excellent service and new items at least once every month, if not more often. If anything, the industry I work in is even more cutthroat than the miniature gaming niche, with just as many if not more players that are far more driven to succeed and crush their competition, and yet somehow we still manage to turn a profit. The companies that go under are those that don't adapt to the customer's changing wants, and instead try to stick to a strict plan of what has worked for them in the past. It's a sure way to shoot yourself in the head in any niche market.

With GW the customer has been pretty clear with what they want, but GW is not listening. Go to any forum and there are easily five things GW could easily do to better please their customer. Their steadfast obstinance though doesn't allow them to implement these changes.

Furthermore, they are only looking at their current sales receipts to determine what people want. While this will help maintain the status quo (at best) it does nothing to help you grab new undeveloped profit centers. Just because marines sell the best does not mean that you shouldn't constantly be trying to release new items too. This is a horrible trap that a lot of companies fall into, and sometimes never get out of.

Regarding the outsourcing of production again. My company started outsourcing its manufacturing and production to Asia a couple years ago. Yes, some production and manufacturing people lost their jobs here in the US, and it sucks to be them, but our company now has even MORE people working in the US than we had before, and we are generally more effective a company for having done so. With the added savings on cost of production and increase in operational efficiency we are in fact bringing back some of the better manufacturing people to do QA here at better pay than they were originally getting when we did manufacturing in the US.

Oh one more note on Mordheim tanking. I don't think it tanked because people bought their 10 minis and stopped. It tanked because the rules got progressively worse with each new Town Crier rules release, and the non-support for it by GW proper to fix problems with the core game. Furthermore, there were no new models being released for the new Town Crier lists either...so of course no one was buying anything new...there was nothing new to buy!

I too think a lot of the rules are simple and bland.  I"m not exactly sure why GW believes that targeting the kids is such a great idea.  On top of that, even though the rules are rather simple, I find that the kids STILL find it confusing and complicated.  Especially since many of the rules aren't clearly answered or contradictory.  From my viewpoint in the industry, it isn't so much bad rules writing, but GW's inability to fix problems in a timely fashion.  The vets aren't happy, and the kids don't think it's all that fun.

Competition is a good thing.  If there wasn't any competition, GW would still be in the same place they were five to ten years ago.  I see change, but it's slow in coming. 

Everyone hates the slow release schedule.  It is, and I will agree here, really bad for the vets.  The funny thing is, the market is a niche market, so they should do what the market wants.  Somehow upper management thinks that the game should be more "mainstream", so a lot of their rules and regulations within the company itself cater towards making a game that trys to get people into the hobby.

I don't agree on ugly new models.  Yes, many of the models make me sad...but I hate the look of orcs anyways, so it's all the same to me.  I thought Empire was pretty sad too.  However, the wood elf line was fantastic, so were Bretonnians (in my opinion anyways, some people hate the men in arms).  I'm really fond of the black templar upgrade sprue and the dark angels stuff. 

Of course mismanagement of money and operations is key.  GW sells more models than other game companies but lost money.  Obviously their spending way too much.  I likened it to bad planning and dealing with super growth.  The company made a lot of money and expanded too fast early 2000.  When you rush, you don't plan or setup properly.  If you need equipment, instead of shopping around to get the best deal, you rush out and get whatever is available.  That's usually horrible. 

I agree with Acheron's assessment of a niche market.  I don't really want to say this openly since I work in the industry, but honestly it has to be said:  GW misses the point on a lot of key issues.  I have a lot of trouble getting GW to understand my key points about what the customers think and want.  I think because they're so big and fat that they've in some ways become resistant to change.  There are many things they could do that would fix a lot of their problems that don't require extensive amounts of work or money.  Such as releasing timely FAQS, clearing up their language and writing, offering services that little stores like battlewagon bits offered, actually sponsoring fan done events such as fan made movies.  Not everyone at GW acts like this.  In fact, many of the succesful stores don't have this problem with their management.  However, a lot of upper management work like used car salesman.  That sort of style doesn't work in a niche industry in the long term at all.  Word of mouth is huge in getting customers, as is repeat business. 

You read the PDF, and Tom Kirby is talking about "selling more" and "working hard".  That's used car salesman lines. 

WIth mordheim, they did release some new minis with the Town Criers.  Amazons and shadow elves come to mind.  They also release some new mercs like Marianne Chevaux.  Those new armies didn't sell at all so GW stopped releasing models with the Town Crier, then eventually ditched the line. 

the real problem is GW has to compeat with computer, and vido games, which has the draw of the modern youth most house holds have a computer or game system of one sort or another.

also this causes the modern youth to be fat and lazy, not GW, gw has been more arogent, and ignorint of this predicament.

what they should do is invest in some form of advertisement (other then radio) they should then incurage people to create there own movies and background stories. thus incourageing people to make there own DIY armies and not genaric premade army's this reduces the number of needles codexs (how many people atuly play black templers.)

thered they need to preseue Apoclalypes, with its large army sets that will push people to buy these because they are mor cost efective even if you only want to play pnly 40k you can make atleast two standered armys

Veterens have been compaining on this board for a long time about the current direction GW has taken. Targeting kids may sound good but it has always been the veterens that bring in the new blood. The success of Privateer Press is a direct result of this. GW vets have gone over in droves and are bringing the younger crowd along for the ride. I observed a flags tournament this last weekend were the average age of the players was probably about 17yrs old with maybe 6 total participants. I think thier was one player in his 20's and that was it. So in a sense GW has succeeded. Where as a tournament a year ago had over 20 players and the average age would have been about 27. I go in on the Warmachine nights and the shop is full and that's were you find all the older players.

I'd like to say this is a decent arguament, but it's illegible. That said, We've all pointed out that GW is competing with computer/video games. Some people - and Tom Kirby - have a dissenting opinion, but I would argue that the competition is one of substitutes. In this case they battle over our leisure time. What marketable techniques could GW use in order to BOTH effectively compete with these games AS WELL AS continue to interest older gamers. I would argue that the "dumbing down" of 40k and Fantasy has been a strategy to entice gamers away from the box and onto the table. However, I would also argue that the box can deliver low brain power gaming faster, better, and prettier than GW with less effort on the part of the company AND the customer.

GW needs to play on its strengths to the customer, emphasizing the left-brain nature and time-intensity of the hobby. This isn't a video game. There is no store for trading in a lousy army that you played with once for a week then decided you didn't like (eBay notwithstanding). This is more in the nature of fishing, hunting, or golf than computers and Xbox360. By emphasizing this hobby-over-game nature of GW products they will be properly representing the games, as well as drawing people who are looking for something to do with their time that DOES use their mind and hands, that WON'T need a new video card once a year, and ISN'T fifteen dollars a month for no physical reward. GW products offer a player the oppurtunity to create a physical representation of their fantasy or science fiction fighters. By emphasizing the differences, they can draw on the demographic that is looking - perhaps without realizing it - for more than simply another 14 hour video game that is unplayable more than once.

We can say it all until the cows come home, but the arrogant bollockses at GW central don't give a flyng *fudge*. I'm curious to see what the reaction to this slump would be. I predict either much more aggressive marketing and no change in the errors they are making, or a turnaround bigtime.

It's make or break time. I've been thinking about buy some new models for 5 months now. I haven't, and mostly it's because I don't want to give my money to a company that apparently doesn't value my custom.

 Sorry but I think this is a load of BS, Vets buy stuff, many of them buy stuff all the time. To come out and claim veterin gamers do not buy stuff is one of the biggest whoppers ever told.

the argument that Veteran gamers have plenty of models, already just points to the fact that they bought those models. Many Vets are on their 2nd or third army and alot of them own and play more than one GW game. Heck I own 7 or 8 GW games all with more than one army/gang/fleet/warband to my name.

 Forgeworld seems to do just fine, and yet most of their products are not being bought by little johnny age 8. and are for 40k/warhammer/SGs

 It looks to me like Apocalipse will actually be pointed at Veteran gamers somewhat, I guess we will see how well it sells.

 As far as most shops being poorly run, some are some arent, the weak or lazy or unlucky get weeded out just like GW itself may be getting pulled down right now, after all they are fat and lazy I understand.

The question is: does the number of Veteran Gamers outbuy the number of casual gamers?

Veteran Gamer "Expendable Income" Bob: One army a year, 700 bucks.

vs.

Fourteen Casual Gamers: One box a year, 700 bucks.

Posted By jfrazell on 07/31/2007 5:34 AM
Wow they have unsecured bank debt. Who would give these guys unsecured bank debt? You Brits have life too easy.

I do believe the banks in the UK still let you accrue interest even on debt.  so even with a negative account, over time, you could have money in your bank if you left it open.. (one of my friends who was in London for 2 years and left his account open owing 3 pounds..  he was sent a notice a year or so later saying he had money and the bank wished to know if he intended to keep the account open or close it..

that was in 1990 though, so practices might have changed..

Posted By malfred on 08/03/2007 12:04 PM
The question is: does the number of Veteran Gamers outbuy the number of casual gamers?

Veteran Gamer "Expendable Income" Bob: One army a year, 700 bucks.

vs.

Fourteen Casual Gamers: One box a year, 700 bucks.

I have not collected a Warhammer army in a long time, but the last one I did I noticed how GW blister displays in stores are targeted at the casual gamer and not  the vet-army-builder.  I came to the conclusion that if you want to build a GW army you MUST do it mail-order.

I do all sorts of miniature wargames, and GW armies are the most frustrating to collect retail.  Considering these guys used to have whole stores dedicated to their lines, you think you'd be able to pull together a 2000pt list easily. 

...you'd think they'd make it easier to spend your money.

 

 

For the answer to this question, It really just comes down to wanting to buy.

I don't know about the average " Vetern Gamer", but I would have been buying GW mini's had they not sat on thier preverbial thumb for the ride and made themselves thier own worst enemies.

1. Prices have become out of control. What was once a blister of two or three guys progressivly getting more expensive, to the point when you have to buy a box of plastic terminators at 50.00$$ a pop, to the stupid claim, ( Now over ten years old) that it is WORTH it, and the mini is a viable buy...

2. The inconsistant rules, and lack of direction. When you buy said minis, what good do they do when within three months the line is effectivly dead. Want a corresponding example? SST, from Mongoose. BOTH companies have effectivly cut thier own throats in terms of coming out with miniatures that are now obsolete. When your " Vetern" buys a figure, he or she will usually have it for a reason. When you have the so called guy in charge, albet incompetant, and with a lack of knowledge in thier own game pretty much come out and tell you inconsistant information on a monthly basis, it doesn't do much for the confidence level to make said vet buy yet another mini.

3. You all have it dead on, and the posts on this thread all have merit in this case, especially when we have all been saying all of this stuff about them for years now.

You know, usually I would have to be a smartass, and say something cute about the GW predicament. I find nothing funny about the self destruction of a game that I have been playing for a long time, and would actually continue playing if not for the stupidity inhearent in the system. I once easily spent over $$2000.00 a month on gaming supplies, and played heavily most of GW's NUMEROUS systems. They were fun and veried, as well as continuously engaging and gave players the freedom to play.

Now,I find a distinct lack of origianality, fun, and desire on GW's part to try to encourage playing thier game systems. The lack of direction that has transpired, the degrading " Specialist " game support, and the death of other smaller games such as Space Hulk, Tyranid Attack, Adeptus Mechanicus, Epic, BFG, Necromunda, Dark Future,etc. I feel that the the smaller one off splinter games such as Necromunda, Mordheim, ETC. could easily bail them out.

Skirmish rules for fantasy, 40K, different scenario packs, additions , etc. are cheap, don't take alot of $$$ to develope, and are generally easier to grasp then the turd sandwich that 40K has become. With the " New and Improved" system that the large scale combat game is supposed to be, I'm not vibing this as an "alternative" way to play 40K, and I don't feel that this direction is very smart on GW's part, if they want to make money.

" Make them cheap, sell alot" seems a better approach, but as was already said, it wont make a bit of difference when the product is inconsistant, and unplayable. With skirmish games, at least you can continue to support, and tweak rules and not just run in with a sledge hammer and knock down the walls.

Great conversation, gang.