Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I guess I gotta ask, what shooting do your wyches survive?

That T3 6+ save protects against what, exactly?

It isn't difficult at all to stop Wyches from charging 12" when they come out of the WWP.

You seem to think I can't put up a 20" wide block with a 60 point unit of guard. But I can. It's stretched right along where you are going to be coming out of the WWP.

You sound like you're playing against people who haven't figured out how to play against DE yet, and probably never will.

I tried everything--out assaulting, out maneuvering, etc it just doesn't work. You give the Wych player a snack, then you feast on his army in your shooting phase.

You can try and out assault Wyches, but unless you have Genestealers in large numbers it isn't going to happen.

Stelek wrote:

EpilepticMoose wrote:Does your opponent ever try to surround the WWPs and prevent your reserves from entering? Have they ever been successful? What do you do if/when that happens?

Yes they've tried.

No they haven't.

You fly over them in your skimmers and shoot them dead, dead, dead.

Enemy troops do not block skimmer movement so the tactic doesn't work.

It does make the game quicker though, as I don't have to worry about range or anything. I come out, and shoot/assault what I want.

paidinfull wrote:
This is 100% WRONG.
Check the FAQ

REGARDLESS of whether your units are skimmers or not makes no difference. The FAQ CLEARLY STATES if the WWP is surrounded it can't be used.

FAQ

{This means that if enemy models surround the portal then you can not use it to enter the table.}

That's pretty clear especially for RAI as it goes on to describe
{The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy.}

Units in Gamma level or games with Reserves allow these units to come in from their table edge and MUST come onto the table if Reserves are allowed. The only time a DE player can keep something in reserve until the portal is available is if reserves are not normally allowed.
I am 100% certain this is how it works.

paidinfull, you make 2 very interesting points.

The first one was what I was afraid of from the start with a Dark Eldar WWP army: specifically, having your WWPs surrounded and you not being able to bring in your reserves. However, Stelek's reply seemed to remove those fears, but you are saying that's 100% wrong. My only counter to your claim is to also look at the FAQ at the sentence right before the one you quote. Here is the section:

"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during assault. This means that if enemy models surround the portal, then you cannot use it to enter the table."

So, your quote, when taken in context, seems to be referring only to ground-based (i.e non-skimmer) models, as skimmers can fly right over enemy troops.

However, I find your second point more interesting about games that use the Reserves special rule. So basically, in games that use Reserves, you still have to roll for reserves at the beginning of turn two, even if you didn't deploy your portals on turn 1, and if you do have reserves come in on turn 2, then they have to come in on the table edge. Right?

Thanks!

Well, here's the skinny.

1) Skimmers can fly over enemy troops, and are thus immune to the FAQ ruling.

2) Units held within the WWP cannot enter by any other means. You being 100% certain is pretty meaningless when the rules in the Codex state otherwise.

If the WWP doesn't get placed, those units within are considered destroyed and cannot enter.

Sound familiar? It should, those are the rules.

Do you really need me to quote where it says Skimmers can fly over enemy troops? I mean really.

Stelek unfortunately is measuring from inside the Portal as would anyone who thinks that you can use it.

Where do you start measuring movement if it's not on the table?

You can not possibly measure from a non specified point. No where in the rules does it state that the models have to be placed on the table but that is like saying... I moved 6" in reserve and moved 1" onto the table so I gain the skimmers moving fast rule.

It doesn't work and neither does Stelek's example.

As I said. I am 100% certain that if the portal is surrounded it CAN NOT be used. That is completely clear. I played DE and still play DE players and this is definitely how it works.

The other situation with the WEP is interesting.
You can only keep units in reserve and declare them to only come out of the WEP if reserves are not normally allowed in the mission. I don't have the codex in front of me but I can quote it later if you need it.

To some it up, let's say you are in a tournament and reserves are allowed, they usually are. If you do not open up the portal on turn 1, then those reserves that are available (you rolled a 4+) HAVE to come in via the table edge. The rules for the WEP state at the top that if reserves are not normally allowed then you can keep models in reserve until they come out of the portal. In games where you have reserves they must move on from the table edge per the BGB.

Essentially, you cannot create a "bottle-neck" in non-Alpha level missions. Those that play it that way are playing it incorrectly and are probably saying its RAI as it's a 2nd edition codex, but that is clearly not what is written in the codex. Again I am 100% certain this is how it works as well.
B)

Hope that helps!
Cheers

Stelek wrote:Well, here's the skinny.

1) Skimmers can fly over enemy troops, and are thus immune to the FAQ ruling.

So where are they beginning to fly from?

You are totally wrong and I am certain of it, there is no "immunity" from the rule. Especially since the rule is "if the WEP is surrounded it can't be used" It has nothing to do with skimmers. There are NO exceptions. Is it surrounded? Yes. It can't be used. (period)

You're wrong.

I wrote this awhile back on another forum, just to give you a better understanding... I figure "hey why reinvent the wheel"

kirstar wrote:

"If you have a webway portal in your army you may keep units in reserve, even if you are not normally allowed to do so in the mission being played.

this sentence only allows you to keep units in reserve if reserves are not normally permitted. thats all it says. it doesn't say you can hold units in reserve and when they become available you can continue to hold them in reserve.

kirstar wrote:

"If you do this then the troops may only enter through the webway, and if it has not been opened on the turn they become available to enter play, they must be held back until it is."

This sentence says "if you do this" meaning "you held units in reserve and are not normally allowed to have reserves" then they must enter play via the webway portal.

Like I said before, this verbiage has been a point of contention for awhile but it most certainly does not do what you suggest. Remember that rules are permissive. They allow you certainly abilities.

The FAQ:

"The following is a simple way to understand how the webway portal is used:
When the webway portal is in position, it acts as a gate through which your reserves can enter the table. Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

As you can see from the FAQ and the codex the webway portal does this:
1. Allows you to keep units in reserve if you normally can't ie Gamma
2. Acts like an extension of your table edge

You are welcome to ask the rules lawyers or GW, hell you can easily use it the way you are wanting as the game is intended to be fun, but as I said, I am 100% Positive that what I am telling you is RAW and RAI.

pg 84-85 explains how reserves work.

"When a unit arrives, it must move on as specified in the Reserves section of the mission description."
"Note: You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as tehy are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!"

I hope this clears it up. The webway portal is indeed a cool piece of wargear, but in any mission where reserves are normally available you cannot ignore the BGB as the codex nor the FAQ say anything about that. In normal games (to me at least, Gamma/Omega) the best thing the portal does is allow some of your units a turn to move forward and/or ensures your next reserves are able to get into the thick of it sooner.

if you deploy a unit at the edge of your deployment zone, and open the portal(s) turn 1, you have added 15" usually, that is still pretty significant. Factor in a skimmer that can move 12", allow a disembark of 2", a unit that can fleet 6", and maybe charge 12" you have a unit that can charge 47" I think thats pretty crazy. I was using a wych squad in a raider with the 12" drug roll for my example by the way.

Now I understand. At least I think I do. One of your points anyway.

In missions with regular reserves, the reserves have to come on when rolled for.

Now that I understand the jibberish, I can at least agree with it.

Does it really matter if they come on bit by bit? No.

Amazingly enough, the vast majority of missions where reserves are involved...also include the attacker taking the first turn.

Gee, I guess that means the DE always go first, so it's not like they'll be surprised by how the game unfolds. They'll always get their reserves first, and they'll still be able to use the WWP to bring them on.

So, I understand the point you were trying to make. It is valid from a rules standpoint. It's also pretty meaningless from a game standpoint, but hey at least you're right. If only I really didn't want to read your jibberish english five times to grasp what it was you were trying to say.

So now, on to the cold hard flames.

Remember, you brought this on yourself.

You want everyone to believe if the WWP is surrounded, then reserves cannot enter play and you 'lose'.

"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault."

Are you really that out of step with reality that you believe skimmers, jetbikes, and jump pack troops cannot freely move over enemy troops as allowed in the main rulebook?

Get over it. You can ALWAYS move over enemy troops, and it doesn't matter where you start. You have this really inane concept of moving and being 'placed' on the tabletop.

Gee, I'm a skimmer. You're within 1" of the WWP in all directions. A feat I have NEVER seen, but ok let's say it happens, just for this stupidity you've raised up. Now, I decide I want to move. I measure my movement from the board edge (that's the edge of the WWP) and I can move anywhere from 0" to 24" away from the edge.

You don't place your damn vehicle on the board and then move from where you placed it, you measure from the edge of the board. Any other way is cheating.

You also don't "place" your jump pack troops, or your jetbike troops, and then get an extra 1" of movement out of it. You measure from the board edge, and place them on the board where you measured from.

You can believe your own words if you want to, but nobody else should. They totally rewrite the game to fit your messed up idea on how the WWP works.

It's your board edge. If you want to move GROUND troops on (you know, people with the infantry tag) you can't. That's ALL it means.

Now get off your high horse already. You're confusing the new players.

cold hard flames?
Andrew you're wrong, just admit it. It's right there in the rules.

You're ignoring the written word.

"Which means, IF IT IS SURROUNDED IT CAN"T BE USED."

It can't be used.

IT.
CAN'T.
BE.
USED.

The last part is so clear. Would you like me to make it a poll?

Do whatever ya want, ya git.

You can't break a cardinal game mechanic and think people won't notice.

Skimmers, Jump Infantry, and Jetbike Infantry may ALWAYS move over enemy troops.

ALWAYS.

As soon as you get it that not one part of my army coming through the WWP is foot infantry, maybe then you'll "get it".

I seriously doubt it.

Here you go, smart guy.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210123.page

It has nothing to do with TYPE
infantry, skimmer, jump etc.

It's right there... are you intentionally ignoring it?


"Which means, IF IT IS SURROUNDED IT CAN"T BE USED."

I'm not breaking any game mechanic I'm following the rules as written and the rules as intended which clearly state that it should be DEFENDED and never let surrounded.

a fast moving army can easily accomplish this and since it's a small blast template it doesn't take a lot to surround it.

I have wiped out 1 DE unit carrying a portal and surrounded the other portal with banshees to achieve a turn 3 victory.

It is easy enough to do and a draw back to running a WEP army.

Stelek wrote:
Amazingly enough, the vast majority of missions where reserves are involved...also include the attacker taking the first turn.

Stelek, thanks for pointing that out. A quick check of the BGB reveals that none of the Standard Missions use the Reserves special rule at any level (Alpha, Gamma, or Omega), so this whole "Reserves" thing is pretty much a non-issue to me.

Then you cheated.

Congratulations.

EpilepticMoose wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Amazingly enough, the vast majority of missions where reserves are involved...also include the attacker taking the first turn.

Stelek, thanks for pointing that out. A quick check of the BGB reveals that none of the Standard Missions use the Reserves special rule at any level (Alpha, Gamma, or Omega), so this whole "Reserves" thing is pretty much a non-issue to me.

I know. FYI, most tournament missions don't either--and the ones they do, is the stupid 'defender sacrifices 1 HQ and 2 troops in the middle of the board while the rest of his army is in reserve' then the attacker moves on with his whole army and gets a easy win.

Since DE are always attackers, they always win this mission.

Hurr.

I had no idea that you considered following the rules as cheating... what do you define as breaking the rules?

paidinfull wrote:

I'm following the rules as written and the rules as intended which clearly state that it should be DEFENDED and never let surrounded.

I disagree that you are following the rules as intended (and possibly even RAW).

Everyone who is quoting the "if it is surrounded, it can't be used" rule is overlooking the sentence right before it, which IMO, reveals the intent of the rule.

"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play."

To me the intent of this rule is that only ground troops are prevented from entering, since Skimmers/Jump troops/etc can move over them following "the normal rules regarding enemy proximity".

"The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

That is straight from the FAQ.

You are welcome to play it, however you like. That is the beauty of playing games. I brought this to your attention if you bring that to a tournament and your opponent points that piece out is very very clear.

I'm actually going to agree with Stelek here (don't worry Stelek, it won't happen again ). It's this part of the FAQ that allows it: "Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally."

If you lined up 100 orks across the length of my table edge in a standard game, I could still bring on skimmers as they can fly right over enemy troops.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@Ozymandias

And yet it clearly states that if it is surrounded it can't be used. It has nothing to do with skimmers, or jump troops or infantry or anything other than the simple fact of the position of your opponents models.

I'm not saying that the skimmers can't fly over models etc. I am well aware of the normal game movements, I'm saying that the skimmer can not use the portal to begin with if it is surrounded. The 1" part is an example that is clarified by a rule "This means,"
I

Exactly, its a clarification, not a rule. It says to use the normal rules for moving on from a table edge. The normal rules allow you to fly on over enemy troops. Otherwise, the FAQ contradicts itself.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes it does use the normal rules for moving on from a table edge but it is not in fact a table edge. It is a wargear item with it's own rules. One of which is "it can't be used if it's surrounded"

I think where the disconnect is, is that it is a unique piece of equipment/wargear that is similar to a table edge but not actually a table edge. So where we are missing is... "well it works like this in other situations so it should be like that in this case"
If the phrases "This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. "
and "The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy." were not there I would totally agree with you. As then it just makes a reference about 1" rule, but it goes on to say what the intent is (it should always be defended) and it simply states that it can't be used. I don't know why it can't be used haha must be some Dark Eldar workings beyond me, but it doesn't according to the rules. Maybe a guardsmen dropped his helmet in it... haha who knows.

We'll just have to disagree then (at least until the new DE book comes out in ~ a year).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Fair enough
B)

It is just a game and meant to be fun and in friendly games you can have your opponent agree with you to play your raiders as AV14. I brought this up as it is often played incorrectly, IME.

I actually don't even use WWP, but if I do, I'll clear this up with my opponent beforehand.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

WWP are fantastic and I hope they add some more interesting rules in the (potential) new codex. It's a shame that the DE have gotten the shaft for so long.

Y'know...I've been playing WWP DE since 4th edition came out.

While I have had an incredibly shooty army wipe out all of my WWP carriers (terrain would have been nice), I have never come close to having one of my portals surrounded by an enemy. Relatively few other armies have both the mobility to do this and resiliency for the unit to stay alive after parking itself around the portal. When you're running 2 or even 3 portals, the likelihood of it happening becomes even less. Also, if they're sending units that aggressively forward to attempt this tactic, they're probably isolating units for easy destruction by over extending them from the protection of the rest of the army.

While I am certain it is possible to do by some army somewhere, I honestly have never come close to seeing it while I have played.

Saldiven wrote:Y'know...I've been playing WWP DE since 4th edition came out.

While I have had an incredibly shooty army wipe out all of my WWP carriers (terrain would have been nice), I have never come close to having one of my portals surrounded by an enemy. Relatively few other armies have both the mobility to do this and resiliency for the unit to stay alive after parking itself around the portal. When you're running 2 or even 3 portals, the likelihood of it happening becomes even less. Also, if they're sending units that aggressively forward to attempt this tactic, they're probably isolating units for easy destruction by over extending them from the protection of the rest of the army.

While I am certain it is possible to do by some army somewhere, I honestly have never come close to seeing it while I have played.

Me either. I've been playing DE since they came out.

I had one surrouned by a Eldar jetbike unit once.

So I came out of the other one and killed the army in detail as a result of it being so spread out.

Will the tactic cause issues when you only use 1? Yes. Do smart DE players use 1? No.

I feel like we're just arguing to argue, not on any real important point here.

Hehe, back to the topic at hand.....

I was wondering how you would scale this army down to 1500.

I'm currently running a WWP Wych Cult that is doing fairly well, but I wanted to try a shooty varient, and I am at a loss as to how I can balance the list.