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I would say the community of warhammer has always been the same, but the new models and the such being released... however i still think games workshop has plenty of room to improve

Grandmaster wrote:I feel that its a great time for the "hobby" side with more and more plastic/interchangable kits.

See, now I find it the complete opposite. The plastic kits are great, but seem to stunt the hobby side rather than grow it. Especially when I look back at old citadel Journals and see stunning conversions.

I say we are living in the crapy rules age of 40K... I even deviated from my old-as-the-hills-and-ever-growing PH-style World Eater army, and started eldar... Me, playing eldar! No-one could have guessed...

golden age? Wasn't the Golden age when the Emporer was out and about? I'd say we are in the pewter age ... yep.. white metal FTW...

NO, we are in the Polystyrene Age!

How about now? New Dark Eldar, Necron re-vamp and they put bunches of extra bitz on the sprues. Ooops! Finecast. Did we just hit an air pocket? I started in mid-third edition and it has gotten better by far. Yeah, they blunder a bit - deep striking Land Raiders? And the rules are getting a bit complicated with all the special powers/abilities crammed in, but if Zogwort can turn an independent character into a squigg, I'm in.

I'd say the Age of the Sculptor which maybe makes it a Renaissance, but can you use that word about something that happens in the future?

No we're in the FineAge, just leaving the Polystyrene Age.

I'd say it's at a somewhat good point, kits are simple enough and still allow conversions and the competition is to the level that you can easily convert non-GW units to act as replacements for neglected ranges.

Gordy2000 wrote:, and as for Apocalypse...

I mean really, being able to throw down all your models on a huge table and just go for it - what a blast - forget balance, forget structure, just have fun...I've only participated in one, memorable 40,000 point apoc game, but it really was the best wargame fun I've had in years.

*Ahem* WE,and I mean more then myself, have been playing large scale games for years WITHOUT any fancy rules to be able to do it.

Now I haven't played a tournament for a long time, but as a casual observer, it seems tournament support (internationally) is better than ever. I am not in a position of sound knowledge here, so no doubt there are places or events where this is not the case.

Grand tournments back in the daty were far far better, then what I see today. Tournments have been around before. Indy curcuit has been around for a while.

And as for the models coming out over the last few years - things that even three or four years ago would have seemed like wish-listing:
Plastic Cadians (and related models)
Plastic Wraithlord
Plastic Buildings
Plastic Baneblade
Plastic Terminators
Plastic Drop pod
Plastic Stormboyz, nobs, grots et al
And on the horizon...plastic Valkyrie, 6 plastic baneblade variants and a plastic Stompa....
The list goes on

To counter this, let me ask:

Hows the bit service support nowadays? Or how is the conversion scene? Back in the days before going public, they use to come up with AMAZING things without having to worry "is it a GW bit".

Let us also not forget, we also have finecast with alll that. Thats a big minus

Let me also ask: how's sepcialist games doing? Games that were one off, but brought people in? Epic, space hulk WITH expansions, gorka morka, necromunda....THAT list goes on and on.

White dwarf content? Yeah no constest there in comparison to days of old.

So then, have at it - are we living in the Golden Age of 40K?

No. The golden age has passed us by. Silver or Bronze age is more likely it.

Given the amount of legitimate issues surrounding GW at the moment, I will say we are very far from a Golden Age. Sure we have a lot more multi plastic kits but it’s no where near enough to offset the other BS.

I'd not say golden age, and i've been there through the lot

The models are generally better, though some are less characterful than the old ones (old ork models for example, compared to the new ones, and old daemonettes compared to the new ones..)

The prices are in the golden age :( The models are more costly than gold by weight and size by a goodly margin (though the old lead ones might also have been i guess). I miss being able to buy multiple rhinos as one kit, or dual LR's, for affordable prices. These days if you're a kid getting into the hobby you'd better come from money or deal drugs to be able to afford it..

The conversion scene is vastly inferior to the old days when Bitz order was the norm, and they couldn't care less if you smashed a tonka toy to use as material for a hover unit cybork leg

The Rules are mostly smoother and more playable. I like 5th ed, mostly.

The incessant focus on the Marines, and the godsawful fluff that they tack onto the IOM stuff these days is definitely not so great. BL's offering have gotten less and less readable too.

Certain rewrites didn't thrill me, and i've lost several armies to retconitis over the years as they no longer exist... :(

My favorite time this side of 2nd Ed (as I loved RT ) wold have to be just after the transition to 5th, before the GK, BA, Necron and Tyranid release/rewrites ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think i liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old GW would gladly draw inspiration from movies, books and other neat scifi.

New GW will sue anyone who looks at GW product sideways

No I'd say around the Armageddon campaign was the golden age (I'm guessing that was about 10 years ago now).

These days people are too scared to buy finecast to use actual HQ models.
The majority of purchases are made off of ebay.
You go to a tournament and see 3 armies... if you're lucky.
Prices are skyrocketing.
Lots of plays are using Mantic instead of GW models.
Lots and lots of people are abandoning GW for Privateer Press and other games.
GW is alienating every company that makes MODELS GW DOESN'T MAKE.

This is the black plague of 40k.

I'd have to say that it's the Golden Age of 40K. Ever since the release of the Ork Stompa, it has revitalized me into getting back into building GW stuff. Ever since the Stompa was released, I find myself rushing down to my local hobby store to pick up one of the latest and greatest plastic kit released. Their plastic kits are top notch. They fit great and have razor sharp detail. Their kits are pretty awesome even though they can be Ludicrously overpriced Tiny Replicas(LoTR). But for me, price wise doesn't concern me too much since I'm not buying them to build an army. I don't need 3 Razorwings, 5 Ravagers, and lots, and lots of Infantry. I just want one of each.

Their Finecast stuff, can be hit and miss. Fortunately for me, it's been a hit.

I don't think I've played long enough to know how it has been historically, but I feel like the Necron launch was pretty awesomely done all around with nice kits, nice rules, etc.

Geez you guys - this thread is three years old!!!!

Mod incoming in 3...2...1....

3 year old thread?

Holy fracking Necro Batman!

The golden age? To me that would be when GW have EVERY codex designed for the current edition........

we are constantly playing old dexes and it sucks ballz....

At the start of 3E everyone was basically on the same page due the brb having all the codexes in it to start.. that was nice but no golden age really.....

For future reference please do not dig up three year old threads. If you do wish to refer to such a thread then start a new thread and throw in a link to the old one.

We'll let this one run for now however and see how it goes, please bear in mind the posting times if you quote/reference/similar an old post.

Ta.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

Oh really? Is that why Pathfinder wrecked guys with Monsterous Race characters?

Nice to ompare the three year old opinions and the current ones where errrr? No they're all the same.

Carmachu has even con to the bother of updating us on his/her POV. (it appear to be the same BTW) ;D

Golden age of GW - no.

Nicer (plastic) toys though.

I hate the price increases and bad publicity GW generates...

But keep this in mind-

At least it is not Hasbro.

And suffice to say, 40k is probably at a higher echelon of popularity than it has ever been in.

If going by the comic book comparisons I'd say GW is in the 90's now.

BrookM wrote:If going by the comic book comparisons I'd say GW is in the 90's now.

Matt Ward:The Rob Liefeld of Games Workshop.

Ascalam wrote:I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think i liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.

Whoa, whoa, way to bring an even more contentious argument into a contentious argument.

I think there are parallels, but the two companies are ultimately facing different issues. D&D is still by gamers, for gamers, but the corporate schlongs at Hasbro expect monetary results and dictate the marketing and business end of the game. In GW, practically everything seems to be designed from the ground up to sell models, with the rules coming secondary, period. Both are affected by the corporate heads, but GW seems to be completely dictated by them. Which seems about right for a company whose flagship game centers around an iron-fisted, fascist empire that ruthlessly exterminates all opposing viewpoints and competition.

D&D's primary concern seems to be "How can we please to a fanbase with wildly varying tastes?" while GW's primary concern is "How do we get people to buy more models?" Both end up with increased sales but WotC's efforts (not their Hasbro overlords) seem at least a little more genuine to me, if misguided.

And if you're going to knock D&D 4e, at least get your facts straight. 4e is playable right out of the box with just a single PHB, just like 3e was. Supplements increase character options but are in no way required. It's too bad that they couldn't fit all of 3e's "core" classes in there, but since that was a byproduct of the fighter getting more than a two-page class writeup, I'm happy with it.

I have to say, before I started coming on dakka and mixing with people that are crazy about the hobby, I didn't realise there was a bizarre sub culture of people that were so into the hobby they get rage that appears to be symptomatic with some sort of mental illness, but the last 12 months have been pretty eye opening for a casual player like me (Played with minis as a kid, left them alone for 12 years, quit the military, got back into it)

I think GW have definitely made some feth ups, WD is truly awful nowadays (my missus got me a 12 month sub last Christmas and they literally all sucked), finecast really does seem to be a genuine feth up and not merely the rage of the nerds that spend too much time with the hobby (what the hell is wrong with plastic anyway?!) and.. well.. that's all that's glaringly obvious to me.

But, like I said, I dont spend that much time painting and playing, I love the story and the books and the art and on that side, things have just got better and better, the range of mini's and paints and books and audio is fantastic, I've bought 3 or 4 of them and while they are pretty dear, they are bang on. Ravens flight is made of win.

The point is, I agree with the OP, and its just down to good old capitalism. If it makes money, they release it. The range and choice that we enjoy now is unrivalled, and I think that's pretty cool.

And also, people keep whinging about the price, bear in mind I'm a noob and hadn't even heard of all the other companies a year back, they are all bloody expensive! I think Mantic is the only one that is hugely cheaper, and as I said, I only play SM and Dwarves, so I don't buy mantic anyway.

I spend maybe £250 a year on the hobby, I'm fine with the way things are. I'm not fussy and happily buy off the internet or ebay and as a result get the GW stuff I want relatively cheaply. I love the choice and the range, and if they just scrapped finecast and made everything in good old plastic, I would be as happy as I think I could be with the hobby that I don't really spend that much time playing.

Noob question, everything I have got in plastic is great, so.. why make finecast at all? Why not just make all the metal kits and metal everything in plastic? I never saw a plastic model covered in holes....

40k is not in a Golden Age. Games Workshop management is merely reaping the benefits of previously laid foundations.

Advances in Plastic Kits: The bulk of the development on their plastic kit process was done in 3rd Edition. Sure there have been advances and optimizations in 5th Edition, but these have been incremental, rather than revolutionary. When the 3rd Ed Space Marine box came out, it was revolutionary, rather than evolutionary. The MKII Rhino was light-years ahead of the MKI Rhino that it replaced. The Falcon and Vyper broke new ground in terms of what was achievable by the GW plastics team due to inclusion of clear parts and curved surfaces. The MKII Landspeeder - while admittedly a poor kit, paved the ground for thin hull construction. Kits from that era are still made and sold in vast quantities - this includes the Rhino and all derivatives, the Land Raider and all derivatives, and the Falcon and all derivatives. Much of the plastic infantry range from that era are still sold. 4th Edition brought large monsters in plastic, starting with the WH Giant and the Carnifex. Pretty much all the shiny new plastics are merely outgrowths of past R and D. The latest transition to Finecast was meant to be a revolution but ended up being a great leap backwards, due to inconsistent quality, poor durability and higher price.

Ruleset: IMHO, WH40k's ruleset as it currently stands is regressive. It is akin to a Windows box that has seen too many patches, has a gak-load of driver conflicts and needs a reformat. When 3rd Edition came out, it was a total departure from 2nd Edition and streamlined the game immensely, revolutionizing gameplay. A black tome was issued with tide-me-over armies. Errata was issued in White Dwarf. 4th Edition was saddled with the mandate to fix balance problems from the previous edition while maitaining support for all the legacy codexes. It was and still is an impossible task. This requirement was also mandated for 5th Edition. Until they do away with this reverse compatibility OR issue a massive tome of errata at the start of a new edition, the ruleset is going to be built on the unsteady foundations of the legacy codexes.

Event Support: Event support peaked in 4th Edition with multiple Games Days, Conflicts and GTs. North America now gets one instead of a dozen events. Non-purchasable prize support (trophies) peaked in 3rd Edition. The events teams have been downsized if not outright dismissed.

White Dwarf: White Dwarf hasn't been relavent for two editions.

Painting: 'Eavy Metal peaked in early 5th Edition. The studio paint these days is decidedly shabby in comparison to the glory days of 4th-early 5th Edition. Just take a look at the painting on the covers of new products - especially the Necrons. Gone are the skillful blends and NMM of the past. Once, 'Eavy Metal was the standard by which painting excellence was held to. These days, 'Eavy Metal gets by with harsh edge highlights and washed metalics. It is sad that GW has alowed the hobby community at large to eclipse the skill of their studio painters.

Pricing: On models still in production from 3rd Edition, you get on average a +50% to 150% price hike for the same model. More if the model transitioned from metal to Finecast.

This in mind, I'd say the bulk of the improvements were made in the 3rd Edition era, making that, the Golden Age, peaking around the middle of 4th and 40k has been in stagnation, if not decline ever since. The HOBBY, on the other hand is in a golden age. Never before has there been so much choice in how you spend your gaming dollar, from Warmahordes to Infinity, to Mantic, to Wyrd. It is a great time to be a miniatures enthusiast.

Hey, I thought it was pretty good thread that could be a continued discussion. Like a fine wine coming out of the cellar. There is some vintage stuff to be found on the back pages. Didn't mean to offend anybody (altho I haven't quite figured out what would be offensive). And besides, I didn't have a chance to respond to the thread originally. Always open to input on the etiquette.

Meanwhile, got a few responses, eh?

The golden age is always in the past; mine was Vehicle Manual/Battle Manual-era Rogue Trader.

Ouze wrote:Matt Ward:The Rob Liefeld of Games Workshop.

This is nevertheless true. Though Mat Ward can probably draw better feet.

Ascalam wrote:I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think I liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and beta testing.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.

This is comment right on the money. The reason why the past was the golden age was because there essentially was a greater emphasis on the game and the hobby. Up until the end of third, GW was a company run by gamers/hobbyists for gamers/hobbyists. The sad thing is that GW is now a company run by Mark Wells/IP Lawyers for Mark Wells/IP Lawyers.

There is a small silver lining IMO that Keezus already pointed out. Whilst GW is no longer in its heyday, the hobby itself is definitively in a golden era especially due to the great small scale resin companies like AnvilIndustries, Chapterhouse, Maxmini and Microarts Studio. At the moment I’m building my “dream army” (pre heresy and gothic SciFi inspired army) and using primarily third party products.

Heading that way, but not there yet. Rules are getting better, but invalance is still a serious issue on the rules front. On the miniatures front, plastic molds are still expensive so alternative plastice models are still limited, how ever they are becoming more common.

A remarkably subjective question, and it really depends on what you want out of the game.

If you value somewhat-more-affordable figures, encouraged creativity and a general freewheeling "openness" and tongue-in-cheek flavor to the culture of the game, then the golden age was back in the late 80's, early 90's.

If you can afford the hobby at current rates, and your value is on a more easily playable ruleset, highly customizable, high-quality kits and an absolutely emense selection of models, then 40k is more golden now than it's ever been.