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I used the example of the Tactical squad to highlight how much a medic adds to the units survivability, so that rather than the unit being wiped out, you retain some models; which is better than having no models, as if you have no models you lose. Why is it so hard for some players to comprehend that you might want to protect an expensive and important squad?

With carpace and a medic you are, in fact, MORE durable than a Space Marine; 4+, 4+ > 3+. I haven't taken the toughness into account as thats dependant upon whats shooting at them.

Medics aren't 50 points. They're 30. Again, I highlight the desire to protect an expensive investment, especially when the squad in question is already hovering around the 150pt mark (with a Chimera). It's not much more of a points sink to provide a boon in survivability, supplemented even more if you happen to take Advisors in your CCS as well.

L. Wrex

Ailaros wrote:
Even with carapace AND a medic, you're STILL not as durable as space marines.

Actually, if we're talking boltguns and the like, they ARE as durable. 10 boltgun hits will do an average of 1.65 unsaved wounds to Space Marines. The same number of hits against FNP IG with carapace or in cover will do an average of 1.65 unsaved wounds.

That said, as much as I like the medic, I do think he's a tad overpriced at 30 points, or at least at 30 points + special weapon slot. If the medic was an advisor attachment to the CCS, I would never ever leave home without him.

Against small arms, they may be as durable, but not against any type of heavier weaponry or close combat. Plus, this all hides the fact that a bare naked CCS with just adding on a medic and carapace you're spending nearly 12 points a wound, all for something that's worse than a space marine.

Plus, if your opponent really deems a plasma CCS a threat, they're not just going to sit there taking pot shots with just one unit. Really, you're just going to give something for their anti-MEq firepower to shoot at other than being wasted on regular guardsmen.

Having a medic as a independent non-HQ HQ choice (like a priest or an enginseer) might possibly make them worth taking, as you could assign him to whatever unit you thought was in most danger, or that could actually make good use of him (like ogryn or a power blob, or something). As it is, spending points and firepower opportunity to give a slight durability bump to a squad that, after the bump, is still easy to annihilate seems like a waste.

It would be like taking the ever-so-fragile sentinel and giving it the option to spend 20 points to make it's front armor not suck quite so badly...

Ailaros wrote:Against small arms, they may be as durable, but not against any type of heavier weaponry or close combat. Plus, this all hides the fact that a bare naked CCS with just adding on a medic and carapace you're spending nearly 12 points a wound, all for something that's worse than a space marine.

Plus, if your opponent really deems a plasma CCS a threat, they're not just going to sit there taking pot shots with just one unit. Really, you're just going to give something for their anti-MEq firepower to shoot at other than being wasted on regular guardsmen.

Having a medic as a independent non-HQ HQ choice (like a priest or an enginseer) might possibly make them worth taking, as you could assign him to whatever unit you thought was in most danger, or that could actually make good use of him (like ogryn or a power blob, or something). As it is, spending points and firepower opportunity to give a slight durability bump to a squad that, after the bump, is still easy to annihilate seems like a waste.

It would be like taking the ever-so-fragile sentinel and giving it the option to spend 20 points to make it's front armor not suck quite so badly...

i'll disagree with that one. it really hurts IG in my opinion- when you start spending lots of points on stuff that's so cheap it's suppose to die in droves. when you start adding on Special characters, Medics or whatever instead of guns, ig lose. you wind up spending SM points on IG.

Sure, a vet with a meltagun costs 17 points, which is more than a space marine.

But what is going to do more, two Sv 5+ vets with a pair of meltaguns or three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Sure, a vet with a meltagun costs 17 points, which is more than a space marine.

But what is going to do more, two Sv 5+ vets with a pair of meltaguns or three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Neither of them. Both will lose to 2 bolter marines.

a medic should be put into a relatively big HQ of course, otherwise its too expensive. So some astropath and bodyguard should be added.

with 7 guys FNP and 4+ armour (including 1 3 wound model) things get interesting. having another 4+ backup (apart from the cover save) save is very handy

Ailaros wrote:In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Justify this.

There's not a whole lot of difference in 2 plasma shots. There IS a whole lot of difference when those remaining 6-8 plasma shots roll '1s' and blow up in the hands of their gunners. The medic not only mitigates the damage caused by overheats, which is ALWAYS desirable as then you don't have to remove your own models in your turn, but it increases the survivability of the squad as a whole. How is this 'not adding much' to the unit?

L. Wrex

EDIT:

Ailaros wrote:three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

Guh? Who leaves their CCS without special weapons? If your doing that then medic, carpace or either will not save you from defeat.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:The medic not only mitigates the damage caused by overheats, which is ALWAYS desirable as then you don't have to remove your own models in your turn, but it increases the survivability of the squad as a whole. How is this 'not adding much' to the unit?

The point is it ISN'T always desirable. Not when is costs twice as much as a plasmagun, 60% of an entirely new squad, 54% of a chimera, and eats up the spot for a 4th plasma gun.

If you play plasma guns in a chimera right then they won't need a medic, and the one or two times you do shoot will be more effective even after they kill themselves. I know you can't quantify good gamemanship, but the medic in real game play does not do anything for a plasma/chimera command and costs quite a lot for a guard army.

I do play plasma guns in a chimera and I do use a medic. Do you? Or are you just looking at statistics and point costs and then making assumptions based upon those two factors?

I'll re-iterate: the CCS is a rare commodity. It does things NO OTHER unit in the IG codex can do; namely BiD, FoMT and Advisors. These ablities are worth protecting. Simply saying 'Oh well, I have more' doesn't cut it when 50% of your HQ choices just vapourised itself in your own shooting phase.

I have no idea how you can say a medic does 'not do anything' for a plasma CCS and keep a straight face. Your mile obviously massively varies in comparison to mine.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Justify this.

I already have. Allow me to repeat:

- 5 T3 dudes with 5+ no FNP are easy to kill

- 5 T3 dudes with 4+ and with FNP are easy to kill

Is the latter LESS easy to kill? Yes. Is it still easy to kill? Yes.

What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

I can't really make this any more clear.

Ailaros wrote:What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

But lasts longer, is more survivable, gets better the more advisors/models you have in a CCS and isn't as likely to melt its own face when you double-tap a target.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

is more survivable

It's survivability is BETTER, but it's survivability is still terribly poor.

I can't believe I'm having to say this again, but "better" does not mean "good". They are less bad at surviving, but they're still not good at surviving.

Is poor compared to what? Every other Guardsman in your army? Even if you smash them with a heavy flamer they STILL get a 4+ save against it. You need to dedicate S6+ guns at them to actually deny the FnP save, and using those kind of guns to out a 5-man T3 squad is rediculous! Especially when your facing upto 1300 more points of IG mech/infantry. What the medic costs in points he more than makes up for the amount of fire needed to put the sqaud down, especially in a KP mission.

I'm sorry, you've failed to convince me as to why making my units last longer is a bad thing.

CCS w/ 4 x plasma = 110
CCS w/ 3 x plasma + medic = 125

Even the points difference isn't that great. Sorry, but I'll happily take a medic over an extra plasma any day, especially when you consider that not every target you shoot at will get the benefit of BiD so you can re-roll those ones.

L. Wrex

Go with the 3+ medipack, getting your chimera blown up alone will kill 1-2 without fnp ...

Also this is ailros, the guy argued for like 15 pages that you should never take long range antitank in an IG army period .... so take what he says with a huge grain of salt ....

kill dem stunties wrote:Also this is ailros.... so take what he says with a huge grain of salt ....

I do. That's not to say that everything he says isn't without merit. Sometimes its nice to have someone in a community play devil's advocate, as it stymies a healthy debate and keeps a healthy selection of diversified opinions.

Anyway, back on topic....

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I do play plasma guns in a chimera and I do use a medic. Do you? Or are you just looking at statistics and point costs and then making assumptions based upon those two factors?

I'll re-iterate: the CCS is a rare commodity. It does things NO OTHER unit in the IG codex can do; namely BiD, FoMT and Advisors. These ablities are worth protecting. Simply saying 'Oh well, I have more' doesn't cut it when 50% of your HQ choices just vapourised itself in your own shooting phase.

I have no idea how you can say a medic does 'not do anything' for a plasma CCS and keep a straight face. Your mile obviously massively varies in comparison to mine.

L. Wrex

I play 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on the officer. And when everything else is in a chimera the orders don't really matter, and aside from the orders there isn't much that vets don't do while scoring.

Don't assume people don't know what they are talking about. I gave you in several instances the fact that medics do make the unit last longer, and that it might be useful for protecting a character. But in the situation we are discussing I think you should give in that the medic is a waste, especially if you have multiple chimera squads. Skillful playing will protect that unit far more than the medic, while putting out much more plasma fire.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm sorry, you've failed to convince me as to why making my units last longer is a bad thing.

It isn't a bad thing. Heck, if I had a way to make all my units more durable for free, I'd do it in a heartbeat, not matter how little it actually helped.

The thing I'm arguing is that the improvement that you get in durability for a squishy little squad is not worth it FOR THE COST.

You're taking a 5-man squad that is less durable than a 5-man space marine squad, and turning it into a more expensive 5-man squad that's still less durable than space marines. If 5 space marines are easy to kill, what makes this command squad with carapace and a medic somehow difficult to kill? Yes, it is definitely possible to create some circumstances where it might hypothetically be nice, but to believe that a 5-man guard squad will somehow become durable just because you gave them FNP is simply delusional.

As such, you are barely inconveniencing your opponent. Are you 30 points inconveniencing him? Will that 30 points inconvenience your opponent more if the basilisk gets upgraded to a manticore, or a russ to an executioner, or an extra three meltaguns are put into your army?

There is serious cost. There is marginal return. Making your units more durable isn't a bad thing, but making them more durable in this particular way is little more than a waste of points.

I really feel like this boils down to personal taste/ gaming style.
and i truely don't think either side is "wrong" or "right".
i don't usually have points left over for such things as Medics because i spent less points on another Plasma instead.
Carapace is even a lower priority. but as mentoned, that's just me.

Ailaros wrote:It isn't a bad thing. Heck, if I had a way to make all my units more durable for free, I'd do it in a heartbeat, not matter how little it actually helped.

The thing I'm arguing is that the improvement that you get in durability for a squishy little squad is not worth it FOR THE COST.

See the part of my post where it only costs 15 more points to include a medic over a fourth plasma gunner. Are you seriously going to argue over 15 points?

And its not '30 points = 3 meltaguns' its '100 points = 3 meltaguns' as you need to buy the veteran squad in order to arm them.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: But in the situation we are discussing I think you should give in that the medic is a waste, especially if you have multiple chimera squads. Skillful playing will protect that unit far more than the medic, while putting out much more plasma fire.

No. Side AV of 10 and looooong sides when you are 12" away from the enemy does not a sturdy pillbox make. When that Chimera blows you'll lose 1-2 plasma gunners in the blast alone, reducing your overall shot output by 25-40% alone which, again, could be reduced by the inclusion of a medic.

2 shots. Thats all you get. Two extra shots, which have the potential to roll ones just like every other plasma shot in the squad. The difference between your squad and mine is that, whilst you have a higher damage potential; I have a higher probability of surviving the infinite number of possibilities that a game of 40k throws at you. Possibilties that can't be defined by maths statistics.

L. Wrex

I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

1. I don’t use special characters. The best use for a medic is to make the CCS that shields the special character last longer, which I don’t need.

2. I use lots of chimeras. Which means it is very hard to get to the side of the CCS chimera. It actually is a fairly sturdy pill box.

3. I use lots of chimers part II. I can’t order my mounted units which means the CCS’s orders are really not that useful to me. Sure there will be some instances where someone gets blown out of their chimera, but ideally all my tanks live (which has happened more than one would think) and then I get no use of the orders at all.

4. A plasma CCS is best at close ranges. Anything that is going to kill a CCS that has rapid fired within 12 inches (where it is best) is going to kill it easily medic or not. This to me means if my opponent really wants that unit dead it will die with only one or two units focused on it. So I need that one, maybe two, turns where it does something to really count.

5. The medic’s ability is completely ignored by a lot of weaponry. Assault cannons, multilasers, auto cannons, missile launchers, plasma guns, meltas, missle pods, scatter lasers, star cannons, demo charges, battle cannons, demolisher cannons, rail gun blasts, virtually any mid strength gun or higher completely blows threw feel no pain for the CCS. There is just too much weaponry out there that ignores feel no pain on T3 models for it to be a serious consideration in my opinion.

6. 4 plasmaguns is statistically better. If you run the math is takes 6 full turns before 3 plasma guns and a medic is better than 4 plasma guns without one. How many times do you really think you are going to be shooting with these guys?

7. If you are going to commit/suicide with any unit, the CCS is probably best. They don’t score, they are cheaper than vets, and their damage output on the first round of shooting is more reliable than a vet squad. In the lists I run the scoring ability of the vets is much more important to keep around than the order abilities of the CCS.

8. With chimeras I can put the CCS where I want it. I’ll put them in cover, it’s free, I can go to ground if need be, it’s virtually the same as FNP, and all I need to worry about is flamers. Yes it requires some planning and good playing, but it’s really not that hard.

9. A medic doesn’t really help a blown up chimera. For a squad of 5 guys 3.33 get wounded. 2.2 don’t make their armor saves. So now with your 4+ feel no pain you pay 30 pts and lower the damage potential of the unit (by a lot) to save one 25pt model. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Your biggest threat when the chimera blows up is being pinned which the medic does nothing for.

10. A medic is expensive. As I have said, 60% and another CCS. 54% of a chimera. 42% of a primarus psyche. 46% of Marbo. 100% of a demo charge. Dropping the medic gets you much closer to getting a lot of other much more useful things.

Like I have said over and over again, a medic has some uses. But they are really limited to a unit without transport, with lots of other units to order, and with a special character. IMO unless you have two of those three things going for you I would pass every time.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

These two statements are incongruous. The way Wrex runs his guard, the medic is useful. They way you do, he is not. Where's the lack of reasoning in that? It's a lot more unreasonable to declare the model utterly useless in any and all circumstances and damn those who disagree to a fiery hell!

Terminus wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

These two statements are incongruous. The way Wrex runs his guard, the medic is useful. They way you do, he is not. Where's the lack of reasoning in that? It's a lot more unreasonable to declare the model utterly useless in any and all circumstances and damn those who disagree to a fiery hell!

Terminus nailed this one on the head too! and i underlined the point i made above yours. it's not a good mix
for your Playstye, cool. Wrex sees a use and likes them, also cool. i don't think the table is going to open up and swallow
anyone's army if you have a Medic or not....

alarmingrick wrote:

Terminus wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

These two statements are incongruous. The way Wrex runs his guard, the medic is useful. They way you do, he is not. Where's the lack of reasoning in that? It's a lot more unreasonable to declare the model utterly useless in any and all circumstances and damn those who disagree to a fiery hell!

Terminus nailed this one on the head too! and i underlined the point i made above yours. it's not a good mix
for your Playstye, cool. Wrex sees a use and likes them, also cool. i don't think the table is going to open up and swallow
anyone's army if you have a Medic or not....

If you go back and read the whole thread, I was the one who said it was useful sometimes. Wrex was the one saying it was useful always, which just isn't true.

Ailaros wrote:
- 5 T3 dudes with 5+ no FNP are easy to kill

- 5 T3 dudes with 4+ and with FNP are easy to kill

Is the latter LESS easy to kill? Yes. Is it still easy to kill? Yes.

What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

I can't really make this any more clear.

If the unit becomes expensive enough I can see a justification for the medic, but the only case where that comes to mind is named HQ like Creed or Straken. Then the squad becomes so expensive I can see the justification for giving up a plasma gun, but the medic is really there to protect the special character rather than the plasma gunners.

I wouldn't use plasma gunners in those units anyway. Well, maybe with Creed, but even then it's doubtful.

Both of those characters imply running a lot of units on foot. The most powerful thing in the game is something that grants you a re-roll, so I love me some vox and battle standard. Adding a medic, that leaves one slot for a special weapon. With Straken, it's usually a meltagun since I occasionally send him after tanks.

With Creed, who knows, I've used him only a couple of times and didn't bother with a medic since I kept him way back where only weapons that would ignore FNP anyway could reach him. Vox, standard, and a lascannon is what I ended up using.