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they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

They don't do the same thing. At all. Even remotely.

Read my previous post. Comparing them one to one to a CSM is nonsense. A CSM isn't 15 points per when it's all said and done. To make them effective they need upgrades.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

Guardsmen don't have:

2 Base Attacks
Fearless
Deep Strike(okay, summoning)
T4
S4
5++

Did I miss anything?

Anyway, as was said before, comparing Codex to Codex is futile. You can't take Guardsmen in a CSM army so its a complete waste of time to bring it up.

JGrand wrote:

they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

They don't do the same thing. At all. Even remotely.

sure they do. the csm just do it better. you're downsizing your expectations because you want this unit to be good. dont. its not.

Read my previous post. Comparing them one to one to a CSM is nonsense. A CSM isn't 15 points per when it's all said and done. To make them effective they need upgrades.

you dont have to buy him upgrades. you can if you want to, but even if you dont, for 2 points you get power armor and a bolter. 2 points. whats nonsense is counting hypothetical upgrades for the csm but leaving no mention at all of the *mandatory* icons for the lesser demons.
AF



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they're 13 points each. they aren't cheap. guardsmen are cheap. are you all on crack? just pay the extra 2 points for a marine.

Guardsmen don't have:

2 Base Attacks
Fearless
Deep Strike(okay, summoning)
T4
S4
5++

Did I miss anything?

Anyway, as was said before, comparing Codex to Codex is futile. You can't take Guardsmen in a CSM army so its a complete waste of time to bring it up.

no but they do
1. take orders
2. shoot
3. score
4. dont need the 5++ when they're in 4++ cover
5. provide ablative wounds for the guys in the squad who do the real killing.

the point you all are making is that lesser demons are cheap. they arent. 13 points a piece is not cheap at all. guardsmen orks and gaunts are cheap. lesser demons arent just trash, they're expensive trash.
AF

but when are you ever paying 65 points for a guardsmen squad, you always end up paying more to add in the special and/or heavy weapon. I don't see demons as being very good, haven't played with them thou, but i do see them as being more than just useless. i wouldn't bring more than one or two units of 5 to the table, but i think they could be used to a better extent then the same point value of marines def when they are bringing something new to the table.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:no but they do
1. take orders Requiring proximity to another unit, which ups the aggregate points cost of the squad's effectiveness
2. shoot Meh, unless you're taking a lot of them I don't see that as being more effective than the SLD in assault, and again that's more points
3. score So do SLD
4. dont need the 5++ when they're in 4++ cover What if they aren't?
5. provide ablative wounds for the guys in the squad who do the real killing. In a ginormous blob squad, sure. But then that's not really cheap now is it?

the point you all are making is that lesser demons are cheap. they arent. 13 points a piece is not cheap at all. guardsmen orks and gaunts are cheap. lesser demons arent just trash, they're expensive trash.
AF

Repeatedly stating your opinion as fact really doesn't help your case.

Just say you don't use them. Actively campaigning against them does a disservice to people who might come here for reasoned advice.

sure they do. the csm just do it better. you're downsizing your expectations because you want this unit to be good. dont. its not.

Ok, 5 Incubi assault 12 Lesser Daemons (156 points)- 15 Attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 Wounds, 1.23 saved= 2.5 Dead
Lessers hit back. 9 (well call it) 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound- 1.48 dead Incubi back.

Lessers Roll 1-2 fearless saves-life goes on.

Against normal CSM 4 die - none saved
Then only 6 attack back. 12 Attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 Incubi dies
Now combat is lost and the Marines take a Leadership test on 6! They fail and it's a roll off for their lives.

Do the math for all sorts of tarpit situations. The lesser daemons perform better versus big bad armor ignoring guys. They fill a different role.

you dont have to buy him upgrades. you can if you want to, but even if you dont, for 2 points you get power armor and a bolter. 2 points. whats nonsense is counting hypothetical upgrades for the csm but leaving no mention at all of the *mandatory* icons for the lesser demons.
AF

I pay 10 points for 2 icons in my army. No big deal. As opposed to the whopping 105 points to give the CSM the meltas, icon, champ, fist, and rhino. So, whatever.

If you can't see that they fill different roles then that's on you. If you can't appreciate that they can be used well, it's no loss to me. Then again, I seem to recall you advocating the use of 10 man deep striking terminator squads so I suppose we all can be a little crazy...

I suppose in the case of your minimum of 333 points un-upgraded deepstriking unit with a huge footprint, some are crazier than others.

Summoning is the big deal that makes them different. Comparing them to CSM--or any other troop choice from the Chaos codex--is like apples and oranges.

This has been true since I started using lesser daemons in 3rd edition--that the great advantage of summoned daemons is that, when they become available from reserve, you can look around at what's happening on the table and put them where you need them most to win the game. That mostly doesn't mean into assault anymore, especially for small units. They can sometimes tip an assault, but more often it's about being a scoring unit in a key location. So offensive capability doesn't matter as much as durability--T4 and fearless.

It's about the battlefield intelligence that you gain by being able to hold them back until turn 2 or 3, and the mobility of being able to place them fairly precisely where they'll do the most good. It's about being able to concentrate them all off of one icon or disperse them away from enemy units as needed. They're cheap in the sense that they don't need their own transport, but actually gain greater mobility by piggybacking off transports you've already bought for other units.

The reason to take 4 lesser demons instead of 5 base CSMs is that the lesser demons are better at one key thing (holding objectives), better at a pretty decent thing (assault support), and worse at a pretty minor thing (short range small arms shooting).

Yes, five marines can shoot while holding an objective. However, they aren't fearless, and can't do too much in non-objective missions. As mentioned above, LDs can hold off dreadnoughts or heckle shooting squads.

And it's disengenous to claim that IG are 4 points and boys are 6, because 4 point IG are conscripts which require a platoon and are taken in at least 20 (or 80pts for a scoring unit), while boys have to be taken in at least 10 (for a 60pt scoring unit). When you factor durability and effective squad size into the equation, they really are a very cheap objective holding unit.

JGrand wrote:

sure they do. the csm just do it better. you're downsizing your expectations because you want this unit to be good. dont. its not.

Ok, 5 Incubi assault 12 Lesser Daemons (156 points)- 15 Attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 Wounds, 1.23 saved= 2.5 Dead
Lessers hit back. 9 (well call it) 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound- 1.48 dead Incubi back.

Lessers Roll 1-2 fearless saves-life goes on.

Against normal CSM 4 die - none saved
Then only 6 attack back. 12 Attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 Incubi dies
Now combat is lost and the Marines take a Leadership test on 6! They fail and it's a roll off for their lives.

I can cherry pick my scenarios too. want to see who does better vs. orks?

Do the math for all sorts of tarpit situations. The lesser daemons perform better versus big bad armor ignoring guys. They fill a different role.

already busted this myth. no retreat means you'll take just as many wounds as the csm. only difference is the marines can actually do something about the dread. the lesser demons just die.

you dont have to buy him upgrades. you can if you want to, but even if you dont, for 2 points you get power armor and a bolter. 2 points. whats nonsense is counting hypothetical upgrades for the csm but leaving no mention at all of the *mandatory* icons for the lesser demons.
AF

I pay 10 points for 2 icons in my army. No big deal. As opposed to the whopping 105 points to give the CSM the meltas, icon, champ, fist, and rhino. So, whatever.

this doesnt have anything to do with anything. forget the upgrades. just run the 5 csm naked if you want an objective holder. objective holding as a specialty is a dumb idea but whatever lets just say you want the best dern objective holder in that book. for 2 points a guy power armor + a bolter is a steal. point is you bring up csm upgrades like they're mandatory. they arent. demon icons are. when you factor in their cost (which is fair since they're *mandatory*) the lesser demons cost about the same.

If you can't see that they fill different roles then that's on you. If you can't appreciate that they can be used well, it's no loss to me.

no loss to you at all. except in your games I guess

Then again, I seem to recall you advocating the use of 10 man deep striking terminator squads so I suppose we all can be a little crazy...
I suppose in the case of your minimum of 333 points un-upgraded deepstriking unit with a huge footprint, some are crazier than others.

as you've so astutely pointed out, icons are cheap and abundant in the chaos codex..... not that this is on topic or anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
This has been true since I started using lesser daemons in 3rd edition--that the great advantage of summoned daemons is that, when they become available from reserve, you can look around at what's happening on the table and put them where you need them most to win the game. That mostly doesn't mean into assault anymore, especially for small units. They can sometimes tip an assault, but more often it's about being a scoring unit in a key location. So offensive capability doesn't matter as much as durability--T4 and fearless.

if we were using the 3.5 summoning rules it would be a different ball game. IIRC reserves took longer to show back then and I recall a piece of war gear that let you choose exactly when they showed up. Given those rules and some hell blades and these guys would be good again. I liked them in 3.5. I couldnt get the models in 3 so I didnt get to play them then :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:The reason to take 4 lesser demons instead of 5 base CSMs is that the lesser demons are better at one key thing (holding objectives), better at a pretty decent thing (assault support), and worse at a pretty minor thing (short range small arms shooting).

if by "worse" you mean "completely useless because they have no ranged capability whatever," and by "pretty minor" you mean "the only way other than assaults to kill something" then yeah I agree with that.

Yes, five marines can shoot while holding an objective. However, they aren't fearless, and can't do too much in non-objective missions. As mentioned above, LDs can hold off dreadnoughts or heckle shooting squads.

they're leadership 9 and there are no modifiers to shooting attacks. they're not fearless but they're pretty close. fearless hurts the demons in close combat as has already been pointed out. they cannot repeat cannot repeat cannot hold off dreadnoughts. just do the math on this for godsake they take no retreat wounds every single round of combat. they're going to evaporate I promise you. but dont believe me. really. just do the math.

And it's disengenous to claim that IG are 4 points and boys are 6, because 4 point IG are conscripts which require a platoon and are taken in at least 20 (or 80pts for a scoring unit), while boys have to be taken in at least 10 (for a 60pt scoring unit). When you factor durability and effective squad size into the equation, they really are a very cheap objective holding unit.

its not being disingenous at all to assume that there are other elements of the army present. you say "well the guardsmen have to take a platoon leader." so? you have to get a lord or a squad of csm to carry the icon that the the demons come in off of. are we going to count the cost of the csm or the lord in the cost of the lesser demons? no of course not. so why are we counting the cost of the ig platoon?
AF

I can cherry pick my scenarios too. want to see who does better vs. orks?

Right...but I use them in a specific way. Either counter charging/tarpitting units that would otherwise rip my Plague Marines or objective holding. They usually don't charge Orks. And if we are talking point for point which is about 12 Lessers v 10 CSM, then it would come down to whether or not you could shoot. Otherwise it's about the same offensive production.

already busted this myth. no retreat means you'll take just as many wounds as the csm. only difference is the marines can actually do something about the dread. the lesser demons just die.

Or I can make the Dred worthless for the rest of the game until I feel like dealing with it. Not only that, but my lesser daemons won't be overrun just because they lost combat by 4...

no loss to you at all. except in your games I guess

I'm not going to play epenis with you. I do just fine in my games. I won't bother attempting to compare win-loss records and justifying this. All my opponents will attest to lesser daemons being useful if that matters any.

as you've so astutely pointed out, icons are cheap and abundant in the chaos codex..... not that this is on topic or anything.

Sure it is. You support absolutely absurd loadouts without much justification. You support deepstriking 10 kitted terminators but cannot see any value in lesser daemons after trying them a whopping two times. What can I say? I think the reactions of other posters to your posts speak for themselves. You are narrow minded and confrontational. When pressed you don't come up with a counter argument. You just ignore what everyone else is saying. If you can't see how a lesser daemon and a chaos space marine fill ENTIRELY different roles than you are more lost than anyone can help. You just keep repeating 2 points for a bolter and a 3+. It's just not that simple.

Yes, the drop off from five CSMs to 5LDs is minor. How much damage do you expect five bolters to do?

LD9 isn't the same as fearless. It's not even close. LD9 still allows for a 15% chance of failing a morale check. I don't want a game to be won or lost on rolling a 10+. There are also psychic powers that effect morale, like weaken resolve or fear of darkness.

As for dreadnoughts, if a squad of demons ges the charge, they will lose less than one demon to attacks (2 attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wound, 5/9 failed save), which means they'lll lose less than one more to "no retreat." Five demons can hold up a dread for 2-3 turns.

Well, the real weasel argument was basing the points cost per model, not per minimum squad, but yes, taking a platoon is a far more signifigant investment than an icon on mandatory troops or HQs. I have to take one HQ and two non-demon troops, so there are places to hang icons pretty readily. Adding an entire platoon to an IG army can change the entire tenor of the force (esp. if you were previously all mech vets), as well as being a far more substantial points investment.

JGrand wrote:

no loss to you at all. except in your games I guess

I'm not going to play epenis with you. I do just fine in my games. I won't bother attempting to compare win-loss records and justifying this. All my opponents will attest to lesser daemons being useful if that matters any.

Someone who already posted in this thread has a rather impressive record at national tournaments, and I know first hand that he uses SLD. That sort of lends weight to the argument that they aren't completely awful. At least more than "Nuh uh" and "Guard are cheaper".

JGrand wrote:

I can cherry pick my scenarios too. want to see who does better vs. orks?

Right...but I use them in a specific way. Either counter charging/tarpitting units that would otherwise rip my Plague Marines or objective holding. They usually don't charge Orks. And if we are talking point for point which is about 12 Lessers v 10 CSM, then it would come down to whether or not you could shoot. Otherwise it's about the same offensive production.

if you discount the shooting phase and that csm have power armor and hence in a majority of scenarios will live longer than the demons, and hence also throw out more attacks. big omission from where I sit but w/e.

already busted this myth. no retreat means you'll take just as many wounds as the csm. only difference is the marines can actually do something about the dread. the lesser demons just die.

Or I can make the Dred worthless for the rest of the game until I feel like dealing with it. Not only that, but my lesser daemons won't be overrun just because they lost combat by 4...

sure. tar pit the dread by feeding it a unit of equal or greater value. awesome solution

no loss to you at all. except in your games I guess

I'm not going to play epenis with you.

awww come on its fun

I do just fine in my games. I won't bother attempting to compare win-loss records and justifying this. All my opponents will attest to lesser daemons being useful if that matters any.

really. I have no idea how you're doing in your game. you threw out a snarky comment I sent one back at you. dont be upset

as you've so astutely pointed out, icons are cheap and abundant in the chaos codex..... not that this is on topic or anything.

Sure it is. You support absolutely absurd loadouts without much justification. You support deepstriking 10 kitted terminators but cannot see any value in lesser daemons

terminators kill stuff. lesser demons dont. justified.

after trying them a whopping two times.

what are you even talking about? the "tried them out two times" comment refers to you all not me.

What can I say?

not much

I think the reactions of other posters to your posts speak for themselves.

they certailny do

you are narrow minded and confrontational

well thank you

When pressed you don't come up with a counter argument.

nonsense. reread this thread as many times as needed to confirm that this statement is, in fact, nonsense.

You just ignore what everyone else is saying.

on the contrary. Ive replied in detail to what everyone else keeps saying. even though its manifestly silly.

If you can't see how a lesser daemon and a chaos space marine fill ENTIRELY different roles than you are more lost than anyone can help.

you need to get over yourself so bad.

You just keep repeating 2 points for a bolter and a 3+. It's just not that simple.

afraid it is
you all make up these imaginary unit roles in order to justify lesser demons. for instance: what the hell is counter charging? a unit that is good on the charge is good on the charge. whether ABC friendly unit right next to the charging unit just received a charge or not doesnt have anything to do with anything. there's no difference at all between charging and counter charging. Its the same thing. But on the basis of this imaginary category you say "apples and oranges! different roles! no comparison!" Its just obviously silly. as to the bolter and power armor.... now there's something with merit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:no but they do
1. take orders Requiring proximity to another unit, which ups the aggregate points cost of the squad's effectiveness

yes I assume the proximity of other elements in the army. which is totally contrary to all previous experience, I know..... I like to explore new scenarios thats all.

2. shoot Meh, unless you're taking a lot of them I don't see that as being more effective than the SLD in assault, and again that's more points

why wouldnt you take alot of them? they're like 4 points each.

4. dont need the 5++ when they're in 4++ cover What if they aren't?

why wouldnt they be?

5. provide ablative wounds for the guys in the squad who do the real killing. In a ginormous blob squad, sure. But then that's not really cheap now is it?

not just in a ginormous blob squad. normal squads can take heavy and special weapons.

the point you all are making is that lesser demons are cheap. they arent. 13 points a piece is not cheap at all. guardsmen orks and gaunts are cheap. lesser demons arent just trash, they're expensive trash.
AF

Repeatedly stating your opinion as fact really doesn't help your case.

it doesnt help you all's either but you dont see me complaining.

Just say you don't use them. Actively campaigning against them does a disservice to people who might come here for reasoned advice.

I'm giving reasoned advice. you just dont agree with my reasons thats all.
AF

afraid it is
you all make up these imaginary unit roles in order to justify lesser demons. for instance: what the hell is counter charging? a unit that is good on the charge is good on the charge. whether ABC friendly unit right next to the charging unit just received a charge or not doesnt have anything to do with anything. there's no difference at all between charging and counter charging. Its the same thing. But on the basis of this imaginary category you say "apples and oranges! different roles! no comparison!" Its just obviously silly. as to the bolter and power armor.... now there's something with merit

I don't really feel like a back and forth quoting and re-quoting. Counter charging to me is when the opponent is moving forward with either the intention of charging or already has engaged my Plague Marines in assault. The lesser daemons summon and charge. I refer to this as a counter charge. I am countering their intentions of assault with my re-enforcements. Sorry if that was unclear.

Bottom line:

Chaos Space Marine Advantage:
1. 3+ save
2. Bolter
3. Can get upgrades
4. Can get a transport

Lesser Daemon Advantage
1. 5+ invunerable save
2. Fearless
3. Summoning
4. Cheaper

Chaos Space Marines are great, no questions asked. Still, to say that Lesser Daemons have no advantages is crazy. To say you would throw 5 Chaos Space Marines at a deadnaught is stupid. On the contrary I have thrown 5 Lesser Daemons at a Wraithlord. Why? Because they will tie it up for a few turns.

DIFFERENT ROLES! This is the point you seem to miss. Lesser Daemons can do things that CSM cannot. CSM can do things lesser daemons cannot. They have different roles. Chaos Space Marines are a staple unit. They are more flexible. Lesser daemons are a niche unit. They can fill certain roles. Sure, they won't do so well versus a hoard of Orks, well CSM won't do so well against Incubi or a Monsterous creature. That's why they are different.

I don't send my Plague Marines after the same things I send my lesser daemons after. This is called using a unit to it's advantages and tactics. They work for what they do. They do what they do better than comparable points of CSM's. Period.

Polonius wrote:Yes, the drop off from five CSMs to 5LDs is minor. How much damage do you expect five bolters to do?

not much. neither of these units are particularly good but there's a direct comparison and the bolters can at least do something.

LD9 isn't the same as fearless. It's not even close.

for shooting purposes, in a game where there are no modifiers to leadership from shooting attacks, it's pretty close. fearless doesnt exactly help lesser demons in close combat. they take no retreat wounds. I keep saying this but w/e.

LD9 still allows for a 15% chance of failing a morale check. I don't want a game to be won or lost on rolling a 10+.

it's a game of chance. I'll take an 85% chance of winning. usually your odds arent that good.

There are also psychic powers that effect morale, like weaken resolve or fear of darkness.

true enough.

As for dreadnoughts, if a squad of demons ges the charge, they will lose less than one demon to attacks (2 attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wound, 5/9 failed save), which means they'lll lose less than one more to "no retreat." Five demons can hold up a dread for 2-3 turns.

depends on the build. if its running 2 close combat weapons, if its a furioso, if its a chaos dread etc. it has more attacks. even against 2 attack dreads you'll lose on average (rounding to the nearest whole number) 1 lesser demon + 1 no retreat casualty in every assault phase making 4 casualties per turn. 4x13 = 52 so you're paying 1/2 the dread's cost to hold it off every turn you want to do it. nurglings are tar pits. lesser demons are not. you have to be cheap and have alot of wounds to tar pit right? lesser demons dont have either. the csm codex doesnt have a tar pit at all so dont try to make it do something it doesnt want to do.

Well, the real weasel argument was basing the points cost per model, not per minimum squad, but yes, taking a platoon is a far more signifigant investment than an icon on mandatory troops or HQs. I have to take one HQ and two non-demon troops, so there are places to hang icons pretty readily. Adding an entire platoon to an IG army can change the entire tenor of the force (esp. if you were previously all mech vets), as well as being a far more substantial points investment.

compare them to a different unit if you like. make it orks. or vets. or anything thats cheap and good. the specific comparison to the guard squad isnt the point at all. you all think that lesser demons are cheap. they arent. they're 13 points a piece. that's most of the cost of a marine. no one's saying marines are cheap are they? no of course not. so here comes a unit that costs 95% of what a marine costs and you all think its cheap? thats silly. its not cheap at all. its just the least expensive thing in an expensive book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:
I don't really feel like a back and forth quoting and re-quoting. Counter charging to me is when the opponent is moving forward with either the intention of charging or already has engaged my Plague Marines in assault. The lesser daemons summon and charge. I refer to this as a counter charge. I am countering their intentions of assault with my re-enforcements. Sorry if that was unclear.

right.
Secnario A unit of marines gets charged by unit of howling banshees. banshees wipe marines
Scenario B unit of marines gets charged by unit of howling banshees after having charged something else. banshees wipe marines.
whether the marines charged or did not charge something before getting charged by the banshees doesnt matter at all. the banshees still win. charging and counter charging. same thing.

Chaos Space Marines are great, no questions asked. Still, to say that Lesser Daemons have no advantages is crazy. To say you would throw 5 Chaos Space Marines at a deadnaught is stupid.

lesser demons wont do any better. do the math for christs sake I've said this like a dozen times.
just.... do.... the.... fething.... math.

space marines could, alternatively.... idk.... melt the dread? just throwing that out there.

Sure, they won't do so well versus a hoard of Orks, well CSM won't do so well against Incubi or a Monsterous creature. That's why they are different.

the lesser demons wont do well against incubi either. you ought to know you're the one who did the math

Period.

you said it.

Monster Rain wrote:
Someone who already posted in this thread has a rather impressive record at national tournaments, and I know first hand that he uses SLD. That sort of lends weight to the argument that they aren't completely awful. At least more than "Nuh uh" and "Guard are cheaper".

I just played him a week ago, came as close as I ever have to beating him, but coincidentally his unit of 5 lesser daemons deepstriking off a havoc icon in the backfield turned my win into a draw by (1) tipping a close combat against me and then (2) running for and camping an objective behind LoS blocking terrain until the game ended.

I got all the rest of his scoring units (CSM and berzerkers) but when the daemons showed up in turn 3, my assault had already been blunted and turned back, and I didn't have anything left to deal with them. All I had was some drop pod storm bolters that only got about 2 before they got out of sight.

So like I said, they came in late in the game at the spot where they needed to be, and then were durable enough to hold the objective.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
Someone who already posted in this thread has a rather impressive record at national tournaments, and I know first hand that he uses SLD. That sort of lends weight to the argument that they aren't completely awful. At least more than "Nuh uh" and "Guard are cheaper".

I just played him a week ago, came as close as I ever have to beating him, but coincidentally his unit of 5 lesser daemons deepstriking off a havoc icon in the backfield turned my win into a draw by (1) tipping a close combat against me and then (2) running for and camping an objective behind LoS blocking terrain until the game ended.

'Ard Boyz 2 or 3 years ago... same story!

I hate those things!

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Polonius wrote:Yes, the drop off from five CSMs to 5LDs is minor. How much damage do you expect five bolters to do?

not much. neither of these units are particularly good but there's a direct comparison and the bolters can at least do something.

LD9 isn't the same as fearless. It's not even close.

for shooting purposes, in a game where there are no modifiers to leadership from shooting attacks, it's pretty close. fearless doesnt exactly help lesser demons in close combat. they take no retreat wounds. I keep saying this but w/e.

I'm not sure I'm fully comfortable with you talking up the difference between five bolters and no bolters, and then dismiss the difference between fearless and LD9.

As for dreadnoughts, if a squad of demons ges the charge, they will lose less than one demon to attacks (2 attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wound, 5/9 failed save), which means they'lll lose less than one more to "no retreat." Five demons can hold up a dread for 2-3 turns.

depends on the build. if its running 2 close combat weapons, if its a furioso, if its a chaos dread etc. it has more attacks. even against 2 attack dreads you'll lose on average (rounding to the nearest whole number) 1 lesser demon + 1 no retreat casualty in every assault phase making 4 casualties per turn. 4x13 = 52 so you're paying 1/2 the dread's cost to hold it off every turn you want to do it. nurglings are tar pits. lesser demons are not. you have to be cheap and have alot of wounds to tar pit right? lesser demons dont have either. the csm codex doesnt have a tar pit at all so dont try to make it do something it doesnt want to do.

I'm not saying they are a good tarpit, just that they can do it for a few turns. Again, it's misleading to round up 5/9 of a dead demon to 1 dead demon. Odds are, you'll probably lose two each turn, but you might lose 4 (two dead, two no retreat wounds) or none (failed wound or made save). I don't recommend this as a best use of demons, but they'll work a lot better than CSMs at the task.

Well, the real weasel argument was basing the points cost per model, not per minimum squad, but yes, taking a platoon is a far more signifigant investment than an icon on mandatory troops or HQs. I have to take one HQ and two non-demon troops, so there are places to hang icons pretty readily. Adding an entire platoon to an IG army can change the entire tenor of the force (esp. if you were previously all mech vets), as well as being a far more substantial points investment.

compare them to a different unit if you like. make it orks. or vets. or anything thats cheap and good. the specific comparison to the guard squad isnt the point at all. you all think that lesser demons are cheap. they arent. they're 13 points a piece. that's most of the cost of a marine. no one's saying marines are cheap are they? no of course not. so here comes a unit that costs 95% of what a marine costs and you all think its cheap? thats silly. its not cheap at all. its just the least expensive thing in an expensive book.

Why are you hung up on per model cost? Nobody cares what the cost of a model is. They care how much an effective squad costs. In the case of lesser demons, it's 65pts. Even 10 grots plus minder runs you 40pts.

well talking about the cost of an effective build of a unit is more meaningful but also more difficult to establish. what is an effective build of csm? we would have to agree on that before we could talk about what the squad actually costs. just like we would have to agree how many demons are in the squad and what kind of icon we're taking.

counting the melta guns and the rhinos with the csm isnt really to the point because I'm not saying that marines with meltaguns and rhinos are more effective than demons. I'm saying naked marines are. so that's why I'm talking about naked marines. by the same token we're not looking at icon costs. the cost could be negligible or substantial depending on the csm players preference.

point for point comparisons per model are more accessible to everyone so they're easier to use. thats all.

I dig that. But you keep bringing out examples like orks and ig, which seem to have little to do with your point.

Look, showing that lesser demons are, at best, a niche choice isn't hard: they have no shooting, and only marginal assault. Their utility depends on specific units surviving and being in the right spot. They're also a reserve unit in an army with no ability manipulate reserves. they seem limited to two uses: bulk shock troops, or objective holders, either of which run into competition.

I will say that in a CSM list with lots of icons, particularly those that include havocs, chosen, etc., can get far more utility out of the unit.

Tossing out one sided scenarios and relying on misleading stats doesn't bolster your case: it makes it look weak.

ok well to be clear my point about orks and guard is to show by comparison that lesser demons arent cheap. they only look like it if you confine your view to that 1 book. look at all the books in 40k and it's easy to see that they aren't cheap at all. they're fairly expensive actually. someone will say "whats the point of comparing outside of your own codex?" the point is that a good unit is one that stacks up well against the stuff it has to fight on the battlefield, not just the other stuff in your book. a codex full of bad units is a bad codex. you wouldnt say for instance that necron flayed ones are good assaulters because they're one of the better assault units in that book. being the least crappy thing in a crappy book doesnt make you good at all. in the same way, being the least expensive thing in an expensive book doesnt make lesser demons cheap. the comparison has to be with all the other units in the game.

I'm not really sure what the one sided scenario you mean is. I'm looking at a unit of 5 csm naked for the purpose of holding an objective vs a unit of 5 lesser demons. It's a silly scenario granted but then again I'm not the one who brought it up. I've been pretty clear I think that bringing units for no reason other than to hold objectives is dumb.

It’s easy to compare naked CSM to Lesser Daemons from a purely statistical basis. Yes, in a skirmish, the naked CSM come out on top due to bolter fire and power armour however mobility is the primary killer of this argument.

There is currently no way to deepstrike/summon CSM in the codex therefore the argument is moot. If CSM could deepstrike or take a razorback, this argument might have validity but since they don’t, there isn’t much weight for this comparison.

Regular CSM and Lesser Daemons also fulfil different roles. Lesser Daemons function as a deepstriking support unit whereas CSM cannot and should not perform this role. A naked CSM squad lacks the mobility to fulfil the same role as the Lesser Daemons. I suppose someone could run a small group of CSM in a rhino but the unit of Lesser Daemons will always come out on top in this example due to having more wounds (and being fearless) for the same point cost and for an objective camping stalling unit, this is an important thing. The rhino would also offer an easy kill point as well. As for a footslogging unit, I reckon it would be mighty hard footslogging a naked CSM unit to an objective, let alone get them into a useful assault.

For comparison sake, can anyone actually build a half decent list using naked CSM as at the end of the day, list building is where it is at? I think until I see a decent list using naked CSM (and without an arbitrary argument regarding terrain/cover/objective distance), I will fail to how naked CSM can outperform Lesser Daemons in terms of flexibility, mobility and usefulness

Again, yeah, a single IG trooper is cheaper than 1 demon. But a minimum sized squad is 50pts, and far less effective at anything than the demons. Giving them an AC and GL, and they're the same price. Given how often I simply use them as objective holders (and how often they run off the board), I can see the upside to lesser demons in that role.

Upgrade costs for any compared unit is relevant because it's rare to take bare bones squad, unless they dont' have options. Demons have a pretty wicked option built in: the ability to come out from any icon, and thus bolster the line where they are most useful. Aside from that, they don't need anything.

Further, five lesser demons aren't simply restrcted to objective holding. They can glance light armor in assault, tie up small squads, actually beat weak shooting squads, and have the aforementioned ability to come out where needed.

It's hard to show that a unit is never useful. It's easier to show that the range of useful moments is smaller. But given list construction, local metagames, and personal style, it's not inconceivable that lesser demons can be the best option available. One way we know this is because it's been demonstrated in tournament play. The other is because the unit offers something nothing else does: the ability to be summoned, and in addition is noteworthy for being a relatively cheap unit. Any unit that has a unique ability, plus a noteworthy attribute, all while scoring has to be kept in mind.

candy.man wrote:It’s easy to compare naked CSM to Lesser Daemons from a purely statistical basis. Yes, in a skirmish, the naked CSM come out on top due to bolter fire and power armour however mobility is the primary killer of this argument.

There is currently no way to deepstrike/summon CSM in the codex therefore the argument is moot. If CSM could deepstrike or take a razorback, this argument might have validity but since they don’t, there isn’t much weight for this comparison.

if deep striking created a unique set of capabilities for the demons I would go for that. but since they have to come off of the icon it really doesnt. the only thing they can do that you cant do with a squad of csm is charge somebody directly out of reserves. however you usually wont be ready for this on turn 2, and they have a 1/2 chance to come in by then. when they do they're exposed and their primary advantage is wasted. the randomness of this ability + the lack luster nature of their attacks means that this ability, while interesting, just doesnt stack up.

Regular CSM and Lesser Daemons also fulfil different roles. Lesser Daemons function as a deepstriking support unit whereas CSM cannot and should not perform this role.

In my armies every unit supports every other. I dont have any specialist supporters. but maybe I'm just not up on the latest tech.

A naked CSM squad lacks the mobility to fulfil the same role as the Lesser Daemons. I suppose someone could run a small group of CSM in a rhino but the unit of Lesser Daemons will always come out on top in this example due to having more wounds (and being fearless) for the same point cost and for an objective camping stalling unit, this is an important thing.

hold on. you've got 2 ideas here. 1st is that csm in a rhino have just as good mobility but not as good capabilities for the points, second is that for the same cost you can get an objective camping unit.
well for a slightly greater cost you can get naked csm to do the 2nd job, so the comparison is clearly in favor of the csm for objective holding.
for assaulting it depends. if the lesser demons show too early and their assault whiffs the csm have a definite advantage. they can just blow the lesser demons away with their bolters if they want to. anyway if you're going to count the cost of the rhino I think we have to count the cost of the icons too. that can be a little or alot depending on the preferences of the player.

The rhino would also offer an easy kill point as well.

yeah thats true but then again so do the lesser demons. resilience isnt exactly their forte is it. anyway most armies are meched up so the extra kill point is probably going to be balanced by an extra kill point on their side.

As for a footslogging unit, I reckon it would be mighty hard footslogging a naked CSM unit to an objective, let alone get them into a useful assault.

I reckon so too, but then again why would you foot slog them? I assumed all this talk about objective holding was about a rear objective. if you're going to hold an objective close to the enemy dont you want as much resilience as possible? ie. power armor?

For comparison sake, can anyone actually build a half decent list using naked CSM as at the end of the day, list building is where it is at? I think until I see a decent list using naked CSM (and without an arbitrary argument regarding terrain/cover/objective distance), I will fail to how naked CSM can outperform Lesser Daemons in terms of flexibility, mobility and usefulness

no one's talking about making a list full of naked csm. just that if you want an objective holder or generalist unit csm are better in that role.


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Polonius wrote:Again, yeah, a single IG trooper is cheaper than 1 demon. But a minimum sized squad is 50pts, and far less effective at anything than the demons. Giving them an AC and GL, and they're the same price. Given how often I simply use them as objective holders (and how often they run off the board), I can see the upside to lesser demons in that role.

Upgrade costs for any compared unit is relevant because it's rare to take bare bones squad, unless they dont' have options. Demons have a pretty wicked option built in: the ability to come out from any icon, and thus bolster the line where they are most useful. Aside from that, they don't need anything.

yeah it is rare. but the mission you all have defined - holding an objective - doesnt require the upgrades so they arent needed. look saying that csm HAVE to be more expensive because they CAN be is silly. I think you know that.

Further, five lesser demons aren't simply restrcted to objective holding. They can glance light armor in assault, tie up small squads, actually beat weak shooting squads, and have the aforementioned ability to come out where needed.

well neither are csm. which can do all of that stuff too.

It's hard to show that a unit is never useful. It's easier to show that the range of useful moments is smaller.

sure. the range of useful moments for lesser demons is small. so small in fact that you shouldnt put them in your list. you should always take the unit that is useful in more situations. csm. ie lesser demons are junk-ola.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
If deep striking created a unique set of capabilities for the demons I would go for that. but since they have to come off of the icon it really doesnt. the only thing they can do that you cant do with a squad of csm is charge somebody directly out of reserves. however you usually wont be ready for this on turn 2, and they have a 1/2 chance to come in by then. when they do they're exposed and their primary advantage is wasted. the randomness of this ability + the lack luster nature of their attacks means that this ability, while interesting, just doesnt stack up.

This point struck me. Icon coverage in a CSM army is a non issue. With personal icons on cult troops/generic HQs being 5 points, ICOG being 10 points and all SC having person icons, it is highly unlikely that the lesser daemons will not find an icon to deepstrike from. Furthermore, with the abundance of icons, lesser daemons can pick and choose the ideal location as well as the player determining what role they would like the unit to fulfil, whether it is stalling unit, late game objective camping, fire screening an important unit, dual charging with another unit. A naked team of CSM coming from reserves will also have inferior mobility to the lesser daemons.

Lastly, since you are of the opinion that a naked team is superior and can fit into more lists than lesser daemons, can you post a half decent CSM list that contains a naked CSM support squad? Your opinion will have more weight if there was more evidence such as list building and whatnot.

Since lesser daemons have been used successfully by a variety of players and even on a tournament level, at this stage, the argument to use lesser daemons over a naked CSM team has more weight.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
if deep striking created a unique set of capabilities for the demons I would go for that. but since they have to come off of the icon it really doesnt. the only thing they can do that you cant do with a squad of csm is charge somebody directly out of reserves. however you usually wont be ready for this on turn 2, and they have a 1/2 chance to come in by then. when they do they're exposed and their primary advantage is wasted. the randomness of this ability + the lack luster nature of their attacks means that this ability, while interesting, just doesnt stack up.

I think you're dismissing the "charge directly out of reserves" ability too quickly, AF. The icon puts them 100% for sure into combat with any unit that's within 12" on that turn (barring terrain, which you can usually compensate for since you know exactly where everything is going). If they're coming in off an icon in a transport, that means you know you can get a combined charge from all the arriving daemon squads, plus the guys in the transport out to 12" from the hull--and you don't have to make that decision until the daemons actually arrive. It's like getting multiple units into one transport, where they're needed, on-demand.

And--I've been making this argument for 10 years--the invulnerable saves make them complimentary to power-armored marines in assault. With careful base placement and your ability to precisely coordinate assaults, you can have the power-weapon IC fighting the invulnerable-save daemons while your power-armored guys max out casualties on the grunts. Or carry one or two daemons out to fight the big bug while the rest of your daemons and CSM score combat-res wounds on the little bugs for massive no-retreat damage.

Those are both unique capabilities in the CSM codex.

no I agree that you can saturate your army with icons if you want to do it. but if they show up too early then their primarily ability - being able to assault out of reserves - is wasted. sure they're more flexible than csm in that they can come in where you need them. or you can just put your csm where you need them. that works too.

sure a naked team of csm coming out of reserves has less flexibility. but why would you ever put a naked team of csm in reserves? that would be a problem with the player rather than with the unit.

Lastly, since you are of the opinion that a naked team is superior and can fit into more lists than lesser daemons, can you post a half decent CSM list that contains a naked CSM support squad? Your opinion will have more weight if there was more evidence such as list building and whatnot.

sure.
demon prince mark of slaanesh lash wings x2
plague marine squad, plague marines x5, meltaguns x2, aspiring champion, personal icon x4, power weapon, combi-melta, rhino, combi-melta
lesser demons x5, x2
obliterators x9
roughly 2000 points

becomes slightlly better when

lesser demons x10 = csm x10

now you have your objective holders. which is a dumb idea like I keep saying but whatever.

Since lesser daemons have been used successfully by a variety of players and even on a tournament level, at this stage, the argument to use lesser daemons over a naked CSM team has more weight.

here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

What would the point be?

You can compete at that level using SLD, ipso facto they aren't terrible if they are part of your strategy. Not really a hard concept.

Monster Rain wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:here lets play a game. you find 1 ard boyz finalist csm list that runs lesser demons, I'll find 2 that don't. fair?

What would the point be?

to have an experiment? to test an assertion of fact? more ard boyz players arent using them then are. ipso facto they suck