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BRB page 59 says to assume that the tank's guns can swivel by 45° vertically. Doesn't specify up or down, so you could very well shoot at a prone sniper with no problem.

Well that's what I was saying from the start! Can't make my mind on what to do with that at all ! I guess as Daedricbob said, a true LoS when shooting would be terrible since most of the vehicles can't aim at most of the models !

Another example is the Defiller. What would happen if a model went and stood beneath it or in front of it? There is no True LoS there either ! Hmm.....

Raise and lower the turret all you like - when looking down the barrel of the weapon, can you see a target? You'd be firing into tge ground /air depending on which way you aimed.

Again, as I said earlier, squat down, and at eye level trace along the barrel. If you can see the marine, you can shoot him - but you'll have no chance of this whatsoever.

Take template weapons as an example - you put tge flamer template on the edge of the barrel - that's how every other shot begins. So assume that the tank in tge example is a baal predator. Can you put the template over the marine? Of course not. So how could you shoot a regular weapon at him?

The vehicle has Line of Sight, the weapon does not.

Daedricbob wrote:If you are going by 'true LOS down the length of the barrel' it throws up all sorts of issues, as the barrel on the pred only depresses as far as parallel with the ground so anything below this height cannot be hit, i.e. 99% of infantry.
Leman Russ tanks, especialy the demolisher, would have even more problems as they are taller and some of the weapons don't even depress that far down.
As Accersitus wrote, a bit of simplification/abstraction is necessary when dealing with these things.

Because the main turret is slightly raised from the main chassis, it has a modest downwards angle. Because of the height of your average trooper, most would be hittable once they are the length of the turret away from the hull. Things like rippers might get an extra inch or two of safety and people on buildings/flyers on tall bases would be also be safe at close range. As has already been mentioned, weapons get about 45 degrees vertically to play with even if it is not obvious in the mechanics (e.g sponsons on a leman russ).

So the vehicle has 360° Line of Sight from anywhere on its hull?

time wizard wrote:So the vehicle has 360° Line of Sight from anywhere on its hull?

If it has a turret, that can be asserted from what I have read.

Editing to add:
Or pintle-mounted weapons it seems.

kirsanth wrote:The vehicle has Line of Sight, the weapon does not.

That contradicts pg.58 as has been quoted earlier in the thread. Where does it say the vehicle has line of sight?

Ulver wrote: Where does it say the vehicle has line of sight?

The same place it gives LOS to Wraithgaurd.

If you meant vehicle weapons, however, it is page 59 and allows 360 degree motion for turrets and pintle-mounted weapons.

Editing to add:
Sighting along the barrel would still prevent a model under that barrel from being hit, at least assuming the 45degree swivel would not bring the weapon to bear.

It's also only 22.5 degrees down, 22.5 degrees up, for 45 degrees in total.

However if you are physically behind the front of the barrel nothing will give you LOS, as LOS is traced *along* the length of the barrel, not below it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's also only 22.5 degrees down, 22.5 degrees up, for 45 degrees in total.

Touché

This pic might help:

If the model's turret was like that, this thread would have never occured.
Especially if it was capable of clipping through the tank's hull like that.

Editing to add:
Or were you pointing out the problem with an actual 45 degree angle? hehe

Here is another crappy done picture to illstrate the point being made. The size perportions of the model in quest makes little difference since this argument could be made about a models that are clearly shorter then the tank's haul.



I'm personally in the no LoS no shooty camp, but I have had this come up before where it was literally the last two models on the board. We agreed in that match to allow the shot but allow a 4+ cover from the tanks haul/difficulty of the shot.

A PERFECT example of this is a Tau Hammerhead, the barrel is so long that you could easy fit a whole damn unit in contact with the rear of the tank without having a single model in LoS of the barrel. With GW being on the trend of bigger is better I'm sure this issue will continue to persist more and more.

liam0404 wrote:Take template weapons as an example - you put tge flamer template on the edge of the barrel - that's how every other shot begins. So assume that the tank in tge example is a baal predator. Can you put the template over the marine? Of course not. So how could you shoot a regular weapon at him?

This was resolved in the latest FAQ. If it were a Baal predator with either turret he would 100% be able to fire at you no matter where you stood.

Nos is correct obviously. The turret cannot achieve the necessary depression. A laser pointer is helpful in these situatuons: fire it along the barrel and see what you can hit.

Dok wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Take template weapons as an example - you put tge flamer template on the edge of the barrel - that's how every other shot begins. So assume that the tank in tge example is a baal predator. Can you put the template over the marine? Of course not. So how could you shoot a regular weapon at him?

This was resolved in the latest FAQ. If it were a Baal predator with either turret he would 100% be able to fire at you no matter where you stood.

Please do not confuse people guys. The flamer template is different in that it hits anything under the template, while the weapon in question is a stand shot via LoS.

You have a 360 Degree arc of fire around the tank horizonally and a 45 Degree arc of fire vertical to the barrel. If this span of space will still not make the "LoS from the mounting along the barrel" have LoS to the model that is next to the tank, can it shoot?

I agree that the model in contact with the rear hull of the pred would not be a legal target- LOS must be drawn along the barrel, with a maximum of 22.5 degrees of depression, and range must be measured from the muzzle, which will be past the model even if the turret is turned backward.

Beat by Mannahnin

Where does it say only 22.5 degrees up and down?

The BRB says they can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees. The way I understand it, 'vertical' literally translates to 'up and down' so what's stopping it from swiveling vertically 45 degrees up and 45 degrees down? Am I missing something?

DoW

olympia wrote:Nos is correct obviously. The turret cannot achieve the necessary depression. A laser pointer is helpful in these situatuons: fire it along the barrel and see what you can hit.

The turret doesn't have to depress at all. Page 59 tells you the assume that guns can swivel vertically by 45 degrees. So you clearly can draw line of sight. The sticky point is whether you are allowed to measure range backwards from the muzzle.

kmdl1066 wrote:The sticky point is whether you are allowed to measure range backwards from the muzzle.

No it isn't, it tells you to draw from the mounting down the barrel.

Exactly take a piece of string, start at the mounting, trace it along the barrel with a imaginary 45 degree declination. If the string passes through the marine you have line of sight. But to figure out if you're in range you have to measure from the muzzle, right?

I just went and played with a compass and protractor and to my surprise whether or not 45 degrees is enough all depends on where you want to consider the mounting.

I'm of course a totally new to 40K and used to rules where the words used are chosen carefully to have precise meaning. Which means I have a, lets just say poor opinion of the 40K ruleset.

DogOfWar wrote:Where does it say only 22.5 degrees up and down?

The BRB says they can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees. The way I understand it, 'vertical' literally translates to 'up and down' so what's stopping it from swiveling vertically 45 degrees up and 45 degrees down? Am I missing something?

DoW

Yeah, how you'll have then allowed the turret to go through 90 right there.

Grab a protractor hold it on the edge of a desk and rotate or 'swivel' it through 45 degrees, this is the range of motion allowed on a 40K gun, if one swivels or 'rotates it 45 in either direction then one has allowed it motion through 90 degrees. The way you understand it is 100%, 'vertical' can mean 'up and down' (I think it's actually some that is perpendicular to the horizontal plane *shrug*) but if one does what you are suggesting then one's move it 45 vertically and another 45 vertically for 90!!!

ChrisCP wrote:Yeah, how you'll have then allowed the turret to go through 90 right there.

Grab a protractor hold it on the edge of a desk and rotate or 'swivel' it through 45 degrees, this is the range of motion allowed on a 40K gun, if one swivels or 'rotates it 45 in either direction then one has allowed it motion through 90 degrees. The way you understand it is 100%, 'vertical' can mean 'up and down' (I think it's actually some that is perpendicular to the horizontal plane *shrug*) but if one does what you are suggesting then one's move it 45 vertically and another 45 vertically for 90!!!

Hmm. I don't know if I'm convinced.

"In the rare cases when it matters [...], assume that guns can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that!"

I would be entirely on your side if it said 'through' or 'has an arc of' or 'limited field of' etc, but the way it's worded seems to imply that it has a vertical movement from the horizontal plane of a maximum of 45 degrees - meaning 45 degrees up and 45 degrees down. I know we're not really supposed to be delving into the intricacies of English semantics on YMDC, but for what its worth, I think the wording makes a difference in this case.

Now that I'm thinking about it, does anyone know if that same rule presented in a clearer manner in a different language BRB by chance?

DoW

I am a firm believer in the refrain that line of sight needs to be seen to be checked and argued over. As such, here are some slightly blurry pictures of a CSM model in base contact with a Predator to go along with the diagrams.

First, the tip of the barrels touches the enemy model. Clear line of sight, right?


For these next two, the barrel of the weapon is resting on top of the enemy model. If the tank could swing the barrel of the guns through the enemy model, is that good enough for line of sight?


The model's closer in and the barrels are still resting on his backpack...


And the situation described by the original poster, the enemy model in base contact and completely under the barrels. (It's a little hard to tell, but the barrels no longer contact the enemy model.)


As I understand it, if you're drawing a line along the barrel, then you're drawing a straight line along the barrel. So in this fourth picture the turret would not have line of sight to the enemy model.

Yeah the "and then trace the line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel" line on page 58, means that LoS can be drawn to the model shown. I do love these barrel puncturing bullets =P

"Trace line of sight from weapon mounting along the barrel" i.e. path of projectile or energy beam etc.

"Measure from muzzle" the point of which the projectile starts its travel (external to the weapon).

You cannot hit a model behind the muzzle any more than you can depress the barrel to pass through the vehicle's own hull. Measuring backwards from a muzzle does not follow the weapon's line of sight. It's kind of like how a gun works It's not rocket science.


You know what I mean.

Ulver wrote:
"Measure from muzzle" the point of which the projectile starts its travel (external to the weapon).

Where's this from? I was looking for something like that but couldn't find it!