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I really enjoyed the part of the codex where some Grey Knights kill some untainted and pure Sisters of Battle and smear their blood on their armor to protect against daemons.

True Story.

Asuron wrote:

Kasper Hawser wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Dreadknight gets my vote though, thing is just awesome over-the-topness that fits 40K. I could totally see a group of Grey Knights being pushed back by endless hordes, only to watch as a massive Dreadknight just comes busting out with scripture written all over it laying down the holy fury.

I take it you kind of missed the entire point of the old GK fluff.

They were the lone warriors in a struggle against the forces of chaos. It was never giant robots or advanced weaponry that made the Grey Knights so cool, it was the single Justicar who made his desperate stand against a Geater Daemon and won that made them so epic.

So 1 justicar can beat a Greater Daemon in the old fluff and that ok, but If Draigo beats Mortarion and wanders the warp thats not, you couldn't get more lone warrior against all odds. Please don't get me wrong it isn't the best bit off fluff and I know you were not complaing about it, but I find people complain about these things and forget it's not the whole story just a snippet of a story to give inspiration for battles campaigns and such.

Heres the difference
Mortarion is a daemon Primarch, infnitely more powerful than any greater Daemon
Draigo, by himself, according to the codex, smashed through his troops singlehandedly, beat down Mortarion and carved his predecessors name into his heart
All by himself
Forget the fact that Angron and 12 bloodthirsters took 100 Grey knights to take down, with most dying
Forget the fact that Mortarion never leaves his homeworld, because if he did Typhus's role would be utterly worthless

No what we focus on is this fact, that he carved his name into a DAEMON PRIMARCHS heart, by himself, beating through his guard alone to do so instead of attempting to banish something that powerful

Last time I checked that's completely wrong. I might be wrong, but didn't Draigo's retinue hold off the Death Guard, allowing Draigo to banish Mortarion back to the warp and carve the name of the previous Supreme Grand Master, whom Mortarion had just killed? Sending in the two best anti-daemon warriors in the entire Imperium of Man to take out a daemon and the best of them dying isn't a "curbstomp" at all last time I looked. It seems as if people are focusing too much on the fact that they're Primarchs and too little on the fact that they're Daemons too, and as such vulnerable to the Grey Knights.

You know, I used to be one of the sour-puss people who (and this was just me) jumped on the bandwagon and decried Ward's treatment of the codex.

Since seeing it... I'm a changed man. I've already got a 1000 pt Inquisitorial list all ready to go.

Thank you infinite_array, someone who finally will look at good and not just trash everything. I C.L.E.A.R.L.Y stated in the start of my thread that I wanted none of you haters spoiling it and maybe causing an argument or two, already I've seen you haters can't resist us fans of. Please, from now on, anybody who has problems with the GK's, just shut the hell up, make a thread about how much you hate the GK's, for now, I want this thread to be about what the FANS like.

Well, I wouldn't call myself a fan, as I'm not everso keen on the fluff, but what I really liked about the GK 'dex is that I can drag out all my old converted Inquisition minis and get some use out of them. It's a pity you have to take Coteaz and not just an inquisitor to field henchies as troops, but I'm looking forward to seeing if I can knock together a flavourful yet competitive list. I love my old Inquisition figures, conversions and otherwise, and it'll be good to trot them out again.

I think its a great codex lots of different options and generally on the same level as previous fifth edition codices

While I am no fan of the fluff, I like the army list of the codex. Its a vast improvement over what we had in daemonhunters. I'd say my favorite unit is the "humble" Grey Knight Strike Squad. Psycannons and Psybolts? Yes please.

You know what's AWESOME (x2)?

Dismissing the potentially legitimate concerns of a sector of the fan-base (and Dakka community at large) by giving them a childish label!

Ad Hominem FOR THE WIN!!!! (x2 (x2)).

Vaktathi wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I been waiting since 3rd edition Deamonhunter to have an Army that can complete with other armies. To tell you the truth GK is the new Left Blower and it better then IG.

How is it better than IG just out of curiosity? It can't outshoot them, it can't outnumber them, it can outfight them but what can't?

Here is why, IG army rely on vehicle while, I have 6 vehicle that has 4 monkeys and 7 psykers.. thats 23 lascannon 6 str 10 large blast which is assualt. THis army is design around Corteaz and a Grand Master which has three sqards of interceper to alpaha strike anything that is a big threat. Reminder this is 2500 point bulid. On friday I'm going to post a battle report on GK vs SW on friday, have to get the army list from my friend. quick note SW lose in turn 3.

Good crimeny, read the codex.

Mortarian was already dead(or the state that daemons count as dead in the physical world) when the name-carving took place.

There's also nothing to suggest Draigo did it single-handedly or with the entire legion. There's simply nothing said on that matter.

Stop making assumptions, or blatantly lying, and then complaining about like it's true.

That's the worst part I think: All the misinformation and hyperbole that's blown the fluff out of proportion. It's not bad. It's really not. It's not amazing. It's no Dickens, Doyle, or Lovecraft. When I was reading it, I sure wasn't reading Kant or Plato, but for a $25 book I bought to get some new rules for my dudes, it's not bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, as a (perhaps intended, perhaps not so much) side-effect of the thing with the Sisters, there's now a fluff reason why WH and GK would be fighting.

I know I will regret posting in that thread, yes I know it... but the whole Draigo issue comes back so frequently...
So for those who want to dig deeper into it, it is explained in more details p15 of the GK Codex, under the "901.M41 The Battle of Kornovin" entry. I will quote the part of it that deals with what happen during the battle, after the death of Grand Master Geronitan:

GK Codex wrote:"Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more."

EDIT-
If you really find it over the top, I'd like to point out that any fluff can be altered in future Codexes without relying on the dreaded retcon. For example let's say a new Legion/Chaos God Codex (that's 100% random from my part, I' m not saying there will be such Codexes) dedicated to our favorite giant blue talking chickens from the warp and their buddies, enters some random new special Greater Daemon character who doesn't like Mortarion, during the GK/Deathguard battle, he discreetly but decisively interceded in the GK favor, allowing Draigo, who was totally unaware of the GD interference, to land the fatal blow to Mortarion. The Primarch credibility is restored, Draigo no longer looks like Superman, and there was no need to retcon anything in the process...

That was just a random idea in a sea of ideas. GW has many options available if they want to make previous fluff smoother, assuming they want to do it in the first place (which is not a given as Draigo fluff may have ended up exactly like GW wanted it to be).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asuron wrote:

Kasper Hawser wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Dreadknight gets my vote though, thing is just awesome over-the-topness that fits 40K. I could totally see a group of Grey Knights being pushed back by endless hordes, only to watch as a massive Dreadknight just comes busting out with scripture written all over it laying down the holy fury.

I take it you kind of missed the entire point of the old GK fluff.

They were the lone warriors in a struggle against the forces of chaos. It was never giant robots or advanced weaponry that made the Grey Knights so cool, it was the single Justicar who made his desperate stand against a Geater Daemon and won that made them so epic.

So 1 justicar can beat a Greater Daemon in the old fluff and that ok, but If Draigo beats Mortarion and wanders the warp thats not, you couldn't get more lone warrior against all odds. Please don't get me wrong it isn't the best bit off fluff and I know you were not complaing about it, but I find people complain about these things and forget it's not the whole story just a snippet of a story to give inspiration for battles campaigns and such.

Heres the difference
Mortarion is a daemon Primarch, infnitely more powerful than any greater Daemon
Draigo, by himself, according to the codex, smashed through his troops singlehandedly, beat down Mortarion and carved his predecessors name into his heart
All by himself
Forget the fact that Angron and 12 bloodthirsters took 100 Grey knights to take down, with most dying
Forget the fact that Mortarion never leaves his homeworld, because if he did Typhus's role would be utterly worthless

No what we focus on is this fact, that he carved his name into a DAEMON PRIMARCHS heart, by himself, beating through his guard alone to do so instead of attempting to banish something that powerful

Last time I checked that's completely wrong. I might be wrong, but didn't Draigo's retinue hold off the Death Guard, allowing Draigo to banish Mortarion back to the warp and carve the name of the previous Supreme Grand Master, whom Mortarion had just killed? Sending in the two best anti-daemon warriors in the entire Imperium of Man to take out a daemon and the best of them dying isn't a "curbstomp" at all last time I looked. It seems as if people are focusing too much on the fact that they're Primarchs and too little on the fact that they're Daemons too, and as such vulnerable to the Grey Knights.

Read Archibalds post before saying I'm wrong or in the case of another poster, flatout lying
Or better yet read the book and then discuss it

Besides that I was always under the impression that they soley fought daemons, training nonstop because of the danger they possess
Not that they suddenly have uber pwn powers against daemons, just because they specifically fight them
Just that they took every tool possible to fight them and that they themselves were only elite Space Marines essentially, fighting a unwinnable battle?
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but wasn't it only the rules that really reflected that they were strong against daemons

Proposed new subset of Godwin's Law. Draigo's Law.

I'm so confused. Do we want them to be abject badasses who stand up to unspeakable daemonic horrors by themselves, in the "one justicar against a daemon lord" type scenario (a la the anti-DK argument) or do we want them to be not powerful enough to take on such things themselves (a la the anti-Draigo argument)?

We want them to win, but we want their struggles to be a brief light of hope in a sea of hopelessness. The Justicar may defeat the Greater Daemon, but at great cost to both his chapter and himself.

I think it is a Great Codex
1] You can play a Grey Knight Army
2] You can play a Grey Knight all Terminator Armor Army
3] You can play a Grey Knight All Powered Armor Army
4] You can Play a Inquisitor Army
5] You can Play a Guard Army
6] You can Play a Mixed Guard/Marine Army
7] You can use them for a Sisters List
8] You can Make a Traitor Guard List
9] You can Make a Chaos Army
10] I don’t have to buy a single model to use this Codex, but I am

It is going to be fun to play with/against, just like any new army. It is going to make everyone rethink how they play, that means less boring games.

I just can’t wait to see the first Storm Raven filled with Monkeys Blast a Monolith out of the Water with 11 BS-10 Las Cannon Shots.

htj wrote:Proposed new subset of Godwin's Law. Draigo's Law.

The longer a discussion on Dakka continues the probability that Draigo or Matt Ward will be brought up approaches 1.

edit: Messed with the wording and sigged. Thanks HTJ!

Asuron wrote:
Read Archibalds post before saying I'm wrong or in the case of another poster, flatout lying

Dude, really? I mean, REALLY?! Just how in the WORLD am I supposed to read something that didn't even EXIST when I made my post? I appologize sincerely for not being omniscient. Furthermore, I DID include the caveat "I might be wrong", which I'm happy to admit I was. Ad hominem attacks against me isn't neccesary, just point out that I'm wrong and I'll happily step down.


Back on topic: I still think people underestimate the "weakness", if you will, that daemons, and as such daemon Primarchs, have against Grey Knights. Grey Knights are anathema to daemons, much like pariahs are anathema to psykers. All of the Grey Knights' equipment is specially designed to strike down daemons, all their lives are dedicated to the purpouse of cleansing the unclean. Their very reason they exist is to strike down daemons, especially so the Supreme Grand Master, who is probably the most dangerous Imperial foe any daemon can run into short of a Primarch or the Emperor himself. Supreme Commander Geronitan died at Mortarion's hand, Draigo was field-promoted and jumped Mortarion and his bodyguard alone. That is all we know. I'd consider it safe to say that Mortarion was weakened, what with just having killed a Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Draigo could also have had the element of suprise on his side, jumping Mortarion and his bodyguard before they had a chance to react. There's just too many things we don't know.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I been waiting since 3rd edition Deamonhunter to have an Army that can complete with other armies. To tell you the truth GK is the new Left Blower and it better then IG.

How is it better than IG just out of curiosity? It can't outshoot them, it can't outnumber them, it can outfight them but what can't?

Here is why, IG army rely on vehicle while, I have 6 vehicle that has 4 monkeys and 7 psykers.. thats 23 lascannon 6 str 10 large blast which is assualt. THis army is design around Corteaz and a Grand Master which has three sqards of interceper to alpaha strike anything that is a big threat. Reminder this is 2500 point bulid. On friday I'm going to post a battle report on GK vs SW on friday, have to get the army list from my friend. quick note SW lose in turn 3.

So what happens if either A: you are facing an infantry gunline, B: the IG get to shoot first, or C: in 2500pts they've got they've got 20-23 non-squadroned AV12 hulls and enough firepower and tanks to weather your alpha strike, assuming you get to shoot first, and shut down your Jokaero wagons the next turn? Trying to outshoot the IG is a bad idea. In 2500pts it wouldn't exactly be impossible for IG to field nearly 50 lascannons if they really wanted to. I guess if you know your opponents lists ahead of time and its not too extreme you will do fine, but a well built armor spam IG shooting army at 2500pts is ridiculous.

Vaktathi wrote: In 2500pts it wouldn't exactly be impossible for IG to field nearly 50 lascannons if they really wanted to. .

Okay, I'm curious how you'd reasonably field 50 lascannons at 2500.

CCS w/ Lascannon, Banner - 85 pts
CCS w/ Lascannon, Banner - 85 pts
Platoon with 18 Lascannons 715
PCS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, 5 x HWS w/3xLasc
Platoon with 18 Lascannons 715
PCS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, 5 x HWS w/3xLasc
Platoon with 18 Lascannons 715
PCS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, IS w/Lasc, 5 x HWS w/3xLasc
2385 - 56 Lascannons

Okay, I guess you can do it, but that's silly.

pretre wrote:
Okay, I guess you can do it, but that's silly.

I'll be honest. I kinda like it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asuron wrote:
Read Archibalds post before saying I'm wrong or in the case of another poster, flatout lying

Back on topic: I still think people underestimate the "weakness", if you will, that daemons, and as such daemon Primarchs, have against Grey Knights. Grey Knights are anathema to daemons, much like pariahs are anathema to psykers. All of the Grey Knights' equipment is specially designed to strike down daemons, all their lives are dedicated to the purpouse of cleansing the unclean. Their very reason they exist is to strike down daemons, especially so the Supreme Grand Master, who is probably the most dangerous Imperial foe any daemon can run into short of a Primarch or the Emperor himself. Supreme Commander Geronitan died at Mortarion's hand, Draigo was field-promoted and jumped Mortarion and his bodyguard alone. That is all we know. I'd consider it safe to say that Mortarion was weakened, what with just having killed a Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Draigo could also have had the element of suprise on his side, jumping Mortarion and his bodyguard before they had a chance to react. There's just too many things we don't know.

Maybe you underestimate the strength of the Grey Knights. Yeah they're the best of the Space Marines but how powerful do you think they are if they need such powerful weapons and armour to fight Daemons? Not that many survive for any great length of time because they face such a deadly enemy. The image of the lone Justicar or Captain fighting against a hugely more powerful foe, prevailing despite terrible odds, alone, his brothers either dead or fighting an equally desperate battle against hordes of other Daemons was the established idea behind why the Grey Knights were so revered. Such instances where the lone Knight was victorious were very, very rare, and normally the Daemon was defeated by a ritual or a host of Grey Knights working together. Considering so few Grey Knights survived or triumphed against a Greater Daemon, explain why it would be acceptable for a lone Grand Master to presumably fight through an army, then some how fight his way through a host of Mortarions finest, then pummel a DAEMON PRIMARCH to the ground, and carve a name on to his heart, and escape. He didn't 'jump' he physically fought his way through Mortarions body guard and then beat him to the ground. How can he surprise a whole retinue of Warp connected Daemons, Chaos Space Marines and a Daemon Primarch without being detected? How hurt can Mortarion have been if he's still part of the battle?

On topic, I like the Grey Knight book in general, the fluff is over-all of decent quality, and at least it's imaginative and leaves a fair amount of stuff out for speculation. Obvious parts that jump out to people are Draigo and The Bloodtide. The Bloodtide is fine IMHO, but I draw the line at Draigo, its just over the top. Crowe and Mordrak are both very interesting characters.

DarknessEternal wrote:Good crimeny, read the codex.

Mortarian was already dead(or the state that daemons count as dead in the physical world) when the name-carving took place.

In which case this makes it equally asinine as Morty is well established as never having left the Plague Planet in the EOT, if he is in realspace then Typhus' entire existence as a character is now pointless.

Good crimney Ward, read your surrounding 40k background before you go bumbling in and writing stuff without considering the larger effects of your drivel.

DarknessEternal wrote:Good crimeny, read the codex.

Mortarian was already dead(or the state that daemons count as dead in the physical world) when the name-carving took place.

There's also nothing to suggest Draigo did it single-handedly or with the entire legion. There's simply nothing said on that matter.

Stop making assumptions, or blatantly lying, and then complaining about like it's true.

Actually, its states nearly the exact opposite of what you think. I think it's maybe you who should read your codex, if you even posses it and then stop making your own assumptions.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asuron wrote:
Read Archibalds post before saying I'm wrong or in the case of another poster, flatout lying

Dude, really? I mean, REALLY?! Just how in the WORLD am I supposed to read something that didn't even EXIST when I made my post? I appologize sincerely for not being omniscient. Furthermore, I DID include the caveat "I might be wrong", which I'm happy to admit I was. Ad hominem attacks against me isn't neccesary, just point out that I'm wrong and I'll happily step down.


Back on topic: I still think people underestimate the "weakness", if you will, that daemons, and as such daemon Primarchs, have against Grey Knights. Grey Knights are anathema to daemons, much like pariahs are anathema to psykers. All of the Grey Knights' equipment is specially designed to strike down daemons, all their lives are dedicated to the purpouse of cleansing the unclean. Their very reason they exist is to strike down daemons, especially so the Supreme Grand Master, who is probably the most dangerous Imperial foe any daemon can run into short of a Primarch or the Emperor himself. Supreme Commander Geronitan died at Mortarion's hand, Draigo was field-promoted and jumped Mortarion and his bodyguard alone. That is all we know. I'd consider it safe to say that Mortarion was weakened, what with just having killed a Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Draigo could also have had the element of suprise on his side, jumping Mortarion and his bodyguard before they had a chance to react. There's just too many things we don't know.

The codex existed before you posted didnt it?
Besides that I apologise if you thought I was attacking you specifically, it was the other poster who said that I and other people were lying who it was aimed at more specifically
No harm done I hope

Hey guys? Stop arguing and make the thread about why they're good. I'm actually trying to decide which SM army to go with and would love to learn more.

iproxtaco wrote:Considering so few Grey Knights survived or triumphed against a Greater Daemon, explain why it would be acceptable for a lone Grand Master to presumably fight through an army, then some how fight his way through a host of Mortarions finest, then pummel a DAEMON PRIMARCH to the ground, and carve a name on to his heart, and escape. He didn't 'jump' he physically fought his way through Mortarions body guard and then beat him to the ground. How can he surprise a whole retinue of Warp connected Daemons, Chaos Space Marines and a Daemon Primarch without being detected? How hurt can Mortarion have been if he's still part of the battle?

He didn't "fight through an army" by himself, he was already there fighting when the old SGM died. Considering that not even Tzeentch is omniscient I wouldn't find it too unbelievable that a Grand Master could get the jump on a Daemon Primarch and his bodyguard in the middle of the battle. Having just killed the SGM and (presumably) his bodyguard, Mortarion and his Death Guard would be nowhere near their full strength. You don't have to be mortally wounded to be at a disadvantage in a battle you know. And I meant "get the jump" as in he jumps the Death Guard, kills them while he's got the element of surprise and then fights the weakened Mortarion.

Asuron wrote:
The codex existed before you posted didnt it?
Besides that I apologise if you thought I was attacking you specifically, it was the other poster who said that I and other people were lying who it was aimed at more specifically
No harm done I hope

No harm done. Although if you meant that you wanted me to re-read the Codex, you could've said so instead of saying I should've read a non-existant post

Oh how I love Draigo + Lib + Paladins.

Dreadknight is fun, having a Imperial MC is something new and cool.

Psyrifle dread is nuts.

Fluff is fun, properly OTT, and maybe a BIT too OTT in some (I am convinced Draigo is a tragic character, even though he carves names into Primarch's hearts ). I especially liked/was-interested by the new implications of warp power and their use of sorcery; especially after all of the divisiveness about sorcery coming from Prospero Burns/A Thousand Sons. They are utterly puritanical sorcerous marines, they fight fire with fire.

I am quite happy with the new release, although I wish I could take LRs as dedicated transports for my Paladins.

I would like to say the "lone warrior against the hugely more powerful foe" thing is a cool image. It's an archetype even very common in heroic stories. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a "hugely more powerful foe", just foes with larger miniatures so they look more powerful than the single noble squad of unkillable wound allocating force weapon slashing invul save taking paladins that need about 300 shots to cause a wound to. Elephant=big and menacing looking. Midget with elephant gun= heroic underdog?