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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 15:37:16
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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the codex astartes mandates 10 companies of 100 marines each.
thats 1000 marines officially,
it doesn't count support groups like the armory.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 16:23:12
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Uhlan wrote:There is no 'real' strength for a Marine Chapter and I don't think there has been any fluff to that end, has there?
Every reference I've seen, pictures of models and otherwise, only show a moment in time and not what is expected from the Codex Astartes. Even in the Marine Codex it mentions Chapters that have certain specializations (armored assault etc...) and these aren't seen as divergent in any way.
So, it appears to me that the Codex, contrary to what we might expect, does not have a set finite structure for Marine Chapters. Basic elements yes, but in the overall, no.
Much like a Late Roman legion from our own history and in my view exactly what GW had in mind when they created the notion of the Space Marine Chapters in the first place.
I think you missed my point.
I was trying to assess the total strength of a random (or average, if you will) space marine chapter. Of course every single chapter is specialized in some way. Of course, the Raven Guard will field more land speeders and less armored vehicles, on the contrary of the imperial fists who will certainly use more vindicators and the like. And I am perfectly aware that the codex doesn't set any limit for the number of vehicles a chapter can field.
My point was that GW never actually specified the total number of SM a chapter could have. We have all heard of the "1000 battle-brothers per chapter", but that does not take into account the armory, the vehicle crews, the fleet, etc. Which is why I was making this list.
This list is an estimation. Of course, no chapter in the galaxy will have exactly that amount of land raiders and predators in its armory. I simply made an overall estimation of the strength of a SM chapter, cross-referencing various large deployments of many different chapters. From all these organisation charts and strike force lists, I was able to estimate how many apothecaries were directly attached to the apothecarion, how many vehicles were present in the armory and in the companies'vehicle pools, and thus how many vehicle crews were required, etc.
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 16:34:34
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Dakka Veteran
Eye of Terra.
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Grey Templar wrote:the codex astartes mandates 10 companies of 100 marines each.
thats 1000 marines officially,
it doesn't count support groups like the armory.
The basic template is 10 companies equalling 1000 marines, but we all know a Chapter is much more than that and as such I don't think the Codex fixes any specific 'strength' beyond the basic template. The 'real strength of a Marine Chapter' is ambiguous at best.
I think it's more than just the support groups, or is the company command squad considered support?
@Laodamia
Yep, I did miss your point. I figured you were trying to answer the question directly, not in general.
My bad.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/04 16:37:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 18:02:02
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I was agreeing with you.
the Codex specifies the 10 companies, but it leaves out all the support bits as a loophole whereby a chapter can have more then 1000 marines.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 19:26:23
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Dakka Veteran
Eye of Terra.
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Grey Templar wrote:I was agreeing with you.
the Codex specifies the 10 companies, but it leaves out all the support bits as a loophole whereby a chapter can have more then 1000 marines.
I was reveling in your agreement  reiterating a point and posited a question about command squads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 19:39:53
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Command squads are not counted in the 100 man limit for companies.
Each company's command unit consists (in theory) of the company captain, the apothecarion and the chaplain permanently attached to this company, and the company standard bearer. The command squad can be completed with various specialists and veterans which seem to be drawn from the company infantry squads or from other structures of the chapter (first company, armoury, HQ,...). At least that's how I understand it.
There is also the chapter master's command squad. This squad is counted in the HQ structure.
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 20:57:51
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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I would say that all this is still around 1000.....
They just don't count some of them as real SM who fight ( like vehicle drivers [Dreds not included] ).
But I don't see why chapter should have a slightly more than 1000 marines?
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For Emperor and Imperium!!!!
None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!!
Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever"
Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done"
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 21:50:29
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Brother Coa wrote:I would say that all this is still around 1000.....
They just don't count some of them as real SM who fight ( like vehicle drivers [Dreds not included] ).
But I don't see why chapter should have a slightly more than 1000 marines?
They will still be full-fledged astartes. And the crew of a land raider will actually be a more potent and lethal unit than any infantry squad. In the military, or even in the fictional IG, you do take into account vehicle drivers when you assess the strength of a regiment.
But, just for ya  , I counted the number of SM from my list that are not vehicle drivers: 1160 SM
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 22:54:57
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Laodamia wrote:Brother Coa wrote:I would say that all this is still around 1000.....
They just don't count some of them as real SM who fight ( like vehicle drivers [Dreds not included] ).
But I don't see why chapter should have a slightly more than 1000 marines?
They will still be full-fledged astartes. And the crew of a land raider will actually be a more potent and lethal unit than any infantry squad. In the military, or even in the fictional IG, you do take into account vehicle drivers when you assess the strength of a regiment.
But, just for ya  , I counted the number of SM from my list that are not vehicle drivers: 1160 SM
Thanks  . I still don't see a problem having slightly more Marines?
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For Emperor and Imperium!!!!
None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!!
Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever"
Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done"
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/05 13:41:26
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Brother Coa wrote:
Thanks  . I still don't see a problem having slightly more Marines?
There is not really any problem having more than 1000 marines. I don't think I ever said that it was a problem actually.  It's just that I'm trying to count how many Astartes a full strength chapter would have, if we could the support units and vehicle crews.
So here is an updated version of my list, taking into account the conclusions of this discussion so far:
HQ
Chapter master
Honour Guard (and chapter standard bearer): 25 veterans
Reclusiam: master of the reclusiam+chaplains not attached to an individual company (3?)
High ranking officer attached to the HQ?
Transport and command vehicles: 3 land raiders (personnal vehicle of the chapter master, prometheus command vehicle) + 5 damocles rhinos. 24 crew.
Total: 54 (?)
Apothecarion
10 apothecaries (not attached to an individual company)
5 pilots for the specially modified medical rhinos
total: 15
Librarius
Chief librarian
3 epistolaries
6 codiciers
10 lexicaniums
total: 20?
Fleet:
2-3 battle barges
6 strike cruisers
5-6 escort squadrons of different types= roughly 20 escort vessels.
30-35 thunderhawk gunship: 120-140 crew
35 thunderhawk transporters: 105 crew
total: 245
Armory:
10 LR of various types: 30 crew
25 predators pf various types: 50 crew
7 razorbacks of various types: 7 pilots
5 vindicators: 10 crew
20 whirlwinds of various types: 40 crew
additionnal techmarines acting as reserve crews, maintenance and battle engineers, etc: 30
100 TDA suits
total: 157
1st Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 veterans
30 crew for 10 LR of various types
10 pilots for 10 rhinos
3 dreads
total: 147 marines
2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 marines
10 pilots for the transport vehicles (rhinos and razorbacks)
3 dreads
total: 118 marines (each)
10th Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
100 scouts
total: 103 marines
TOTAL: 1685; 521 of them being vehicle crews
As you can see, I removed the land speeders from my list, assuming that they are crewed by the infantry squads. I also corrected a few errors with my vehicle crews total. Any thoughts?
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/05 13:52:54
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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this means there are really about 1,250,000 marines instead of just about 1 million.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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