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See this quote, clearly states that everything is canon. As for Heretic tomes. http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Heretic-Tomes-The-truth-revealed.html

I wonder why you whine about C.S Goto giving Space Marines multilasers, marines aren't limited to weapons we see on tabletop. We also see SW using Hellguns in one of the SW novels.

(Marc Gascoigne - Publisher @ The Black Library and Black Flame)

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

As for your quote it merely states that BL books are still an accurate mirror of the 40k as they must use what codexes and rulebooks say.

IvanTih wrote:See this quote, clearly states that everything is canon.

For a licensed product, the term "official" isn't exactly the same as "canon", though I would agree that this alone doesn't make a very convincing argument. However, Marc Gascogne is just a single mercenary author who quite simply doesn't have the insige knowledge of people like George or Gav. Also, if you are going exactly by what Marc Gascogne said, there would not be any canon in 40k because it's all lies and everything is unreliable. Which would make this sub-forum redundant.

IvanTih wrote:I wonder why you whine about C.S Goto giving Space Marines multilasers, marines aren't limited to weapons we see on tabletop. We also see SW using Hellguns in one of the SW novels.

Please, it's not "whining", it's giving examples of obvious flaws that contradict what we have seen elsewhere. But apart from the technical limitations (do you know how large a multilaser battery is?), why do you think that this usage of weaponry is nothing special when it doesn't get mentioned anywhere in the respective Codices' wargear sections?

And SWs with Hellguns just sounds like yet another mess-up from some BL novel.

I don't intend to "bash" BL (I own a fair number of their books myself and fully intend to continue buying those that are of interest to me), I'm just advocating to see it for what GW's own Head of Publishing himself has said. Also solves a lot of conflicts, I would say.

IvanTih wrote:As for your quote it merely states that BL books are still an accurate mirror of the 40k as they must use what codexes and rulebooks say.

Which obviously often enough is not the case due to faulty editing, prompting the statements mentioned earlier.
Also, the quote actually says far more than that. It also confirms what Aaron wrote in his blog about BL authors not having to care in the slightest what another BL author has written. An artistic freedom he does make use of when writing his novels.

This leaves us with the following chain of facts:
- BL novels cannot "create canon" as another author is perfectly free to write the exact opposite in the very next book
- when BL novels cannot create canon, all they can do is use canon from GW material
- so when said BL novel states something that is in conflict with said GW material ... where is it from? if it's not from GW, it obviously cannot be canon, q.e.d.

But I also recommend you give those two blogs a read. It's very interesting to read how this issue is explained by the people who actually work with this stuff on a professional basis.

Thanks for explaining the "Heretic Tomes" though!

I agree with Lynata that continuity errors exist in the canon, but you can't throw them all out. What they establish is precedent. You can still cite an old court case for precedent, even if it has been overturned at a later date, provided it still has bearing on your current case. I think that's a fair way to approach the background novels. I'm not going to take their word as gospel, but it certainly establishes a starting point. Official supplements, of course, supercede any novels, no matter the author. The picture provided that shows the scale between marines and a standard human makes it all make a little more sense, at least to me. (And makes me happy that I could theoretically carry on a conversation with a Space Marine in a normal fashion.)

Space Marines are ten feet tall.

Jimsolo wrote:I'm not going to take their word as gospel, but it certainly establishes a starting point. Official supplements, of course, supercede any novels, no matter the author.

That's pretty much what I meant by taking novels as inspiration where their stuff fits to what GW themselves establish (for example, I've incorporated James Swallow's idea of a hidden blade within the Chaplet Ecclesiasticus into my current Dark Heresy P&P campaign). I just feel that such an approach is "the best of both worlds".

Of course, problems arise when BL book A says something and BL book B claims another (see Aaron's blog), but I suppose these are the cases where one just has to use his or her own judgment and personal preference. When a BL novel author is officially allowed to call stuff from another BL novel silly and ignore it, so can every other player. *shrugs*

Actually, on that note I get the feeling that GW takes the subject of canon far less serious than we do, but I guess that's just our way of adoration.

There's a photo in the Tau codex somewhere with an armoured marine, a Guardsman and a Fire Warrior. The Marine is about 75% taller than the other two. Probably exaggerated, but I'm jus throwing it out there.

Seems you never read SW novels, if you took context you would have seen why they took Hellguns. IIRC they ran out of the ammo and had to improvise, a SW even comments how they backpack reactor gives them unlimited ammo.
Marines aren't stupid.
About canon see the link that I PM you, it saves me from a lot of words.

The general Dakka consensus is that Space Marines are at least ten feet tall.

Some chapters from weaker gravity worlds probably eclipse twelve or even thirteen feet too.

IvanTih wrote:Seems you never read SW novels, if you took context you would have seen why they took Hellguns. IIRC they ran out of the ammo and had to improvise, a SW even comments how they backpack reactor gives them unlimited ammo.

Ah. But picking up random weapons from the ground is not quite the same as having them in one's loadout by standard, though. As you said, context is important, and the one you just explained would make the SW example incomparable.
Heck, according to that conversation, even George Mann agrees that the multi-laser incident is considered silly when he says that it "could have benefited from the editor's red pen"...

That said, this was just one example from my list posted earlier (though I tend to stress this one because the vast majority of people seems to have heard of it, so it makes a good case). I could probably add to it if I'd look further, as could a lot of other people with more BL novels in their possession I am sure...

Also, PM'd back.

Didn't Goto allegedly give Carnifexes Multilasers?

Because that seems kind of silly.

I think that was just a joke. At least I hope so.

He did the backflipping Terminators, though. And Astartes that surf into battle on top of their Razorbacks/Landraiders. *shrugs*

Lynata wrote: And Astartes that surf into battle on top of their Razorbacks/Landraiders. *shrugs*

I see no problem with this.

That's manly, all Marines should do it.

Now that you mention it, yeah - it seems odd, but not impossible. I could see SW doing that by default.

Children crippling an Eldar Falcon grav-tank by ramming rocks into it, on the other hand ... a wee bit over the top. Probably depends on one's personal preferences, I know I can be pretty anal with such details when I really want to analyze something. I guess the best advice really is just to focus on the story and not try to squeeze any "canon facts" out of it.

Lynata wrote:Children crippling an Eldar Falcon grav-tank by ramming rocks into it, on the other hand ... a wee bit over the top.

This happened?

But my general stance on BL canon is: Only what I like is canon.

Lynata wrote:And Astartes that surf into battle on top of their Razorbacks/Landraiders. *shrugs*

He isn't the first to say this. Old fluff for Jaghatai Khan, Primarch of the White Scars, is said to have fought from the top of his Landraider or Rhino, I don't remember which.

ToBeWilly wrote:He isn't the first to say this. Old fluff for Jaghatai Khan, Primarch of the White Scars, is said to have fought from the top of his Landraider or Rhino, I don't remember which.

Thanks for mentioning that, I stand corrected - in retrospect this really doesn't seem so bad. Still weird, but given that this is 40k ...

Actually, after having read his interviews on his website [#1, #2], I have to say he really seems like an okay guy. Doesn't make his books and some of his ideas less strange and occasionally non-canon, but I think he catches too much personal attacks just because some people are upset with his writings. Just something to keep in mind, I think.

Warriors of Ultramar has Ulriel Ventris surfing a Rhino through a horde of Tyranids. Goto messed his books up fairly well, but he shouldn't be hated this much.

To put things in context and for those who think 7'6" is not impressive enough lets put names in the equation:

An "average" SM is like having Shaquille o'Neal to begin with (a far above average athlete), then add 5" more (13 cm), multiply his weight by two and then add another 134 lbs (61kgs), runs quicker and move faster than Michael Jordan and with enough stamina to play all 7 NBA final series in the same day without taking breathe or touching the bench ever. (Although he should take a couple of breaks to drink water I think). And that is without power armour help.

10 feet is a little bit too much. You don't need that.

The only figure I find a little over the top is the weight of a SM. 355kg is a little OTT for my tastes.

WarOne wrote:The general Dakka consensus is that Space Marines are at least ten feet tall.

Some chapters from weaker gravity worlds probably eclipse twelve or even thirteen feet too.

After reading the first sentence, I was ready to call you an idiot. After the second, I realized you're clever.

I always thought they were 8 feet tall. I think 8 feet is suitably large, without being over the top. That's my opinion anyway.

WarOne wrote:The general Dakka consensus is that Space Marines are at least ten feet tall.

Some chapters from weaker gravity worlds probably eclipse twelve or even thirteen feet too.

Seriously? The official books all say 7'-7'6 without deviation. Some black library books go a little higher (which may or may not be artistic licence).

13 feet! To put that in perspective. This statue is a little under 15 feet tall.



You're saying that Space Marines are about a head shorter than this statue, and ordinary humans only come up to their knee... Maybe in your own world, but there is no way that's supported or even implied by any official sources. Space Marines are nowhere near that tall. Even Ogryns aren't that tall, and they are way taller than marines.

I think people are forgetting that IG are very tall. Being select specimens, they are all a good six feet six to seven feet, and built to match.

Against that, SMs need to be nine feet tall to look at all impressive.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think people are forgetting that IG are very tall. Being select specimens, they are all a good six feet six to seven feet, and built to match.

Against that, SMs need to be nine feet tall to look at all impressive.

Being select specimens doesn't necessarily means being tall. We don't know how the galaxy (not space) treats human body and we generally assume that anything outside earth means being stronger and taller. That is not correct. It may be sometimes but not always. As an average real human soldiers are between 1.7m and 1.85m. (5'8" - 6'2") 7'6" of a SM is certainly impressive against the average soldier. We are talking about 45cm more (1'6") and 260kg more weight.

Raulmichile wrote:Being select specimens doesn't necessarily means being tall.

Indeed. Whilst body height may matter for recruitment on some worlds' PDF, this does neither address the actual range of the population on said world, nor does this mean that the Munitorum is doing the same.

PS: What's the exact source for Jes talking of 7' to 7'6"? Just asking as this would probably skew the average of 7 feet a bit, and so far GW has been pretty consistent about it.
I've tried looking for it on the interwebs, but I only see people using his name to claim various sizes up to 8 feet, so unless he contradicted himself several times this might be another case where "hearsay" (and wishful thinking I guess) has warped actual fluff a bit.

If we use the models as canon, the average Cadian male is about 7'4" and as broad as a power armored Astartes. His skull is the size of an Astartes helmet, and his hands just slightly larger than a power gauntlet. This build may seem excessive, but it is quite necessary to heft the standard pattern lasgun, which is as wide as a man's head and and over 5 feet in length.

I think using any one specific source as the "cannon" number is silly in 40k, and we should defer to common sense, which in my mind says a marine is about 7.5 feet. That CG diagram earlier is pretty much perfect in my mind.

FuryTheBerserker wrote: the english metric system!



(taken from Warhammer 40k wikia)

I hope you dont mind the size of the picture.

wait....a basketball player even at 7'6 weights 350lbs? Isn't that a bit heavy? I mean...at the most, i think they would weight 250.
And wouldn't it be a little over doing it to give anything humanoid that much bulk?
Walking would be very awkward for them, and god forbid if they fell down....which would be pretty easy, considering their bulk

Michael Jordan is six feet six inches, and weighs 215 Lb.

Kilkrazy wrote:Michael Jordan is six feet six inches, and weighs 215 Lb.

Add a few inches and the proper weight should come in close to 250....over 300lbs is a bit bad when it comes to judging basketball players imo

Unless of course, they look like a skinny version of a space marine.....from that same picture

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Michael Jordan is six feet six inches, and weighs 215 Lb.

Add a few inches and the proper weight should come in close to 250....over 300lbs is a bit bad when it comes to judging basketball players imo

Not really, do some research on the square-cube law. Yao Ming is 7'6" and 310 pounds. He looks a skinny as a twig. Marines look bulky.

Shaq is 7'1" and over 300, but not 350...