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But 6 Banshees 1 terroghiest and a ghoul king with scabscrath is fun!!!

Hellstorm wrote:

You're welcome. I usually win either through an excellent sandwich where the enemy is the center of at least 3 of my units. Following that, I continue to ensure that battles are fought on my terms, not the opponents. Just be sure that if you are using zombies to be the tarpit, that they are almost all gone by the time anyone else shows up. If you have a unit of 20 zombie left when all your other units get in combat, the zombies will die so fast that you wont have a chance to win combat.

With the new rules on how a new caster can stop crumbling, I like using a combat lord instead of a weak caster. They still have access to Red Fury and they also have an extra attack base int he new book for about the same points. Just make sure to have him protected well.

BTW, Fear has a different set of rules in 8th ed. It just has a chance to lower you to WS 1.

Ohhh, I see. Fear was different when I played before, which was either 5th or 6th edition. Looking through the models, I really like the new vargheists and crypt horrors. Any ideas about a list that focuses around those guys?

Ok here is my unit breakdown. I will leave out the special character just because I don't have any experience with them. So lets start with characters:

Lords:
Vampire Lord: He is the meat and potatoes of the army. You can make him very killy with almost no equal. My personal favorite is 8 attacks, ASF, Red fury, and a ward save. But there is also the caster side of this monster. He can be a level 4 that can reroll one of the winds of magic dice. Unfortunately this is over 400 for those two abilities. My preference? Combat kit in a unit of GG

Strigoi Ghoul King: He is like the combat vampire but with rerolls to hit, 5+ regen, and poison for a little extra cost. His best attribute is the ability to ride a terrorgheist. Unfortunately, this makes him very vulnerable. I personally don't like the ghoul king but to each their own.

Master Necromancer: My personal favorite addition from the old book to the new one. For half the cost of a caster vampire, you can get this guy and he is still a level 4. He doesn't have access to vamp powers and he sucks in combat but he is efficient at spell casting. I rarely don't take one. He can get the old Lord of the Dead ability which let you raise skeleton past their starting numbers.

Heroes
Vampire: Just a duplicate of the Vampire lord but with a little less casting potential. Still excellent in combat and can be worth every point in most games. I usually take one just for the extra level 1 caster and for the extra com resolution.

Necromancer.: Still good and cheap. I like mine on a Corpse Cart just so that the invocation bubble he cast also give ASF.

Wight King: They are unchanged from last edition but since the Regeneration banner kicked the bucket, they just aren't as useful.

Wraith: For their points they can be effective but I just don't like a hero that can't get magic items and is 2 wounds, no save. A fun tactic that will get you glared at is to take 5 of them and fill the first rank of spear skeletons with them. You will have 15 Str 5 attacks and 10 Str 3 attacks that can't be hurt unless you have magical attacks. auto win combat and maybe have enough ranks to kill steadfast (Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for any broken models or bodily harm that may/will ensue from using this tactic).

Banshee: Way too expensive to be worth it. I like their screams but nit this much. Also i'm not a fan of only 1 attack on a model this expensive that doesn't cast spells.

Character Mounts
Zombie Dragon: Let me start by saying that putting your lord on any monstrous mounts or chariot is VERY dangerous. In 8th ed you can die way too fast for my liking. Also, you usually want your general near the rest of the army so it can march. So with that said, the zombie dragon is nice. With a stat line consisting of mostly 6s and the -1 to hit in combat rule, Its not bad for its cost. Just remember to hit units in the flank or rear. If you want an untouchable lord, give him the glittering scales for a -2 to attack him.

Terreogheist: there is only one build that i like that includes a mounted ghoul king. You will want the awesome weapon that can scream, the +1 wound vampire power, and Aura of Dark Majesty (-1 Ld within 6"). This means the "model" can scream twice at any given unit. Other than that, I don't think a good combat character (ghoul king) mounted on a less than good monster will work.

Abyssal Terror: The model is bad, the rules are bad, and it is kinda costly. Don't do it.

Coven Throne: You know how i said that it is dangerous to put a character on a chariot? Well this might be the exception. It has a 5 toughness, 5 wounds and a 4+ ward (and negligible armor). Not only that, it has on ability to confuse the first thing to shoot at it or swing at it each turn. This makes it very durable and with the two extra vampire on top, it can put out a decent amount of damage. Also it has a base Movement of 8 so it will easily keep up with the rest of the army. As for tactics, keep it near the front of your army but make sure it isn't vulnerable. When a unit goes to charge an enemy unit, have this charge as well. The way maximizing works, it will probably end up touching the unit corner-to-corner; meaning you can attack with everything but only have to worry about 2-4 attacks back. Just don't have the other unit be zombies or something like that.

Corpse Cart: Since I recommend using one anyway, you might as well put your necromancer on here (not a Master Necro, you want him to live). That way any spell he casts also gives ASF.

Core
Zombies: According to a lot of people, this is where its at. I kinda agree. They die in droves but that is their purpose. The two main ways I've seen them used is big hoard or multiple small units. With the big hoard, you practically ram them right up the middle and hope the opponent charges them. When they do, you will lose about 80-95% of the unit. Honestly, the more the better. You follow up by charging 2-3 units into the sides (or front if you have to) and break the enemy. I use this one often because I don't have then numbers I would like to do the other tactic. My number is 60. I have never had anyone kill through it in one phase. The closest was 56 wounds, including resolution, which cost him the game. With MSU, you want to run about 3-4 units of 20-30 zombies and constantly use invocation. I also suggest you use a Corpse Cart or two with this tactic.

Skeletons: Like zombies but more expensive and have armor. I only use them as a wizard bunker just because they are more durable but they have other uses. Due to access to a magic banner, you can make on effective fear bomb unit with them. The combo is Screaming banner, Fear incarnate, and Aura of Dark Majesty (Vampire powers). This will make for a fragile but effective unit.

Ghouls: They are unchanged from the last book except for a 2 point increase. This just changes their play style from anvil to hammer. Still good in my opinion.

Dire Wolves: I still hate them. They gained vanguard and +1 Str on charge but they are still too slow and weak for their purpose. My opinion; take it for what its worth.

Special
Corpse cart: I love it. Never leave home without it. The ASF bubble is amazing and you don't need to cast a bound spell to do it anymore. Instead it automatically goes off any time an augment spell affects it. The drawback is that it now is a chariot so it can only move 4" with no march. The counter to this is the Vanhel's Danse Macabre which is an 8" move so it will keep it up with the army and give off the ASF bubble at the same time.

Grave Guard: Due to the loss of the Regen banner, these guys lost a little power. The upside is they are one or two points cheaper. If you are to use them, I would suggest sword and board instead of great weapons.

Black Knights: I love their new models but their rules still put me at unease.They are only WS 3 and for heavy cavalry that just worries me. But they have a 2+ and killing blow so they could be good. Also no barding penalty is nice.

Crypt Horrors: God I love these guys. They are like little tanks. Toughness 5 and a 5+ regen means they don't die. With 3 Str 4 poisoned attacks and stomp they can hold their own. Just be careful of combat resolution. As a tip, I wouldn't hit anything Str 4 or higher with only them.

Vargheist: Very fragile. Like a glass baseball bat: you're never sure if the enemy will shatter or if you will. When you think you wont need charge the next turn, you may want to turn them to face away from the enemy. With only a Ld of 7, you will fail Frenzy more often than you want. The most common tactic with these guys is to hunt war machines, skirmishers, and fast cavalry. If absolutely necessary you can charge them into the flank of a unit but be careful. If the enemy is initiative 5 or better expect to lose your guys first.

Fell Bats: I hate these guys but I can see their purpose. if you can successfully maneuver around the enemy and hit a war machine with these guys, you can kill it. But this is their only purpose that I can see and for that I wont buy them

Bat Swarms: With the ASL ability that is passed to adjacent enemy units, these guys can be useful. A few in the flank and all of a sudden, your skeletons look like high elves. Lol jk I wish we could always reroll.

Spirit Host: They are 20 points cheaper than before and no stats have changed. This make them absolutely amazing in every way.

Hexwariths: The unit everyone asks about. I have issues with how to position them properly but this is probably because I'm not used to Fast Cavalry. The ability to run through the enemy and cause auto-hits is amazing but with a move of only 8" (and most likely no march), it will be hard to do it a lot, especially because you aren't automatically placed behind them: you have to have sufficient movement to make it there. Then, in combat they are less than stellar because of only 1 attack a WS 3 means only 2-3 hits which isn't much. Don't get me wrong, they are amazing and worth it every time; just only take small unit of 5.

Rare
Black Coach: 5 points cheaper but still about the same. The main difference is that it only gains power on your turn but it doesn't take the dice, you can still use it for magic. I like it!

Vargulf: Same cost, same abilities, 3 points higher of initiative, whats not to like?

Wraiths: I loved these guys before but now I hate them. They lost the ability to skirmish so their harassment style of play was murdered and then raised from the dead just to be murdered again. If they could Skirmish, then I would go back to loving them but their currently play style is just wrong.

Blood Knights: They are a little cheaper and have an extra point of initiative. Other than that, they are just as nasty as before but still $100 a box.

Terrorgheist: The big monster is great for screaming at other monsters and killing them for fun but in combat they are just lacking. If you can keep away from combat and just hunt chariots, heavy cavalry, monsters and war machines then you will fine but if anything gets into combat with it, expect to lose.

Mortis Engine: Lastly the big new kit. I love the model but the rules are just weird. It is an excellent support unit, giving a 6+ regen (or increasing the current ones) and also giving a +2 to cast Lore of Vampires spells. The down side is that when it dies, it will drag quite a few guys with it. That just makes me very hesitant but I still like it.



Ok there is my comprehensive list of units, their abilities and their drawbacks. If you have any questions let me know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tangent wrote:Looking through the models, I really like the new vargheists and crypt horrors. Any ideas about a list that focuses around those guys?

Both of these guys can be used in any army. Just remember to have them fight the appropriate unit. Don't send Vargheists after warriors of chaos and don't try to hunt fast cavalry with Crypt horrors (although you will undoubtedly will the fight if you ever did catch up with them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Johnny-Crass wrote:But 6 Banshees 1 terroghiest and a ghoul king with scabscrath is fun!!!

Why only one terrorgheist? One of the local playes has done a 4 gheist list with a lord riding one of them. I felt bad for that Brettonia player :(

4 Ghiest? Yah I do not play 3k

4 Banshees in hero 2 in rare

Hellstorm wrote:Grave Guard: Due to the loss of the Regen banner, these guys lost a little power. The upside is they are one or two points cheaper. If you are to use them, I would suggest sword and board instead of great weapons.

I'd still recommend Great Weapons, just taking a larger unit to soak up some initial wounds. Sword and Shield turns them into a tarpit - you have cheaper options for tarpits. While you may take a couple of extra wounds with Great Weapons, you'll hit back like the hammer the unit should be. Just make sure a caster is near them to let off an Invocation next turn.

Man, that post is awesome! Thanks a ton! What about the other thing that you can make out of the Mortis Engine?

Tangent wrote:Man, that post is awesome! Thanks a ton! What about the other thing that you can make out of the Mortis Engine?

Oh the Coven Throne. I did forget to add mounts to the list. I'll get that done.

EDIT: There you go.

Thanks! So, when I played, you could assign a bloodline to your vampires which gave them access to different powers and abilities. There was Von Carstein, Blood Dragon, Lahmia, Necrarch (I think?), and Strigoi. Does this system exist in any form anymore?

No, there is just a list of powers (about 15 in total) that any vampire can buy. You can tell that each power has a certain bloodline associated with it but you're allowed to mix and match however you like.

Ah, ok. That seems like a smaller total list than what was available before. If I remember right, it seemed like there was about 5 per bloodline before, with 5 bloodlines.

Hellstorm wrote:Wraith: For their points they can be effective but I just don't like a hero that can't get magic items and is 2 wounds, no save. A fun tactic that will get you glared at is to take 5 of them and fill the first rank of spear skeletons with them. You will have 15 Str 5 attacks and 10 Str 3 attacks that can't be hurt unless you have magical attacks. auto win combat and maybe have enough ranks to kill steadfast (Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for any broken models or bodily harm that may/will ensue from using this tactic).

You can't stick ethereal heros into non etheric units.

Vendetta 476 wrote:

Hellstorm wrote:Wraith: For their points they can be effective but I just don't like a hero that can't get magic items and is 2 wounds, no save. A fun tactic that will get you glared at is to take 5 of them and fill the first rank of spear skeletons with them. You will have 15 Str 5 attacks and 10 Str 3 attacks that can't be hurt unless you have magical attacks. auto win combat and maybe have enough ranks to kill steadfast (Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for any broken models or bodily harm that may/will ensue from using this tactic).

You can't stick ethereal heros into non etheric units.

Where does it say this in the rules? All I've read is that you can't put non-ethereal heroes into ethereal units.
I had a friend who put five banshees in the first rank of a unit...

My bad, must've misread it.

Also worth noting that if you fill up the front rank of a brick with ethereals (so people can't attack back) you shouldn't take a command, as characters will not displace command models.

deathholydeath wrote:Also worth noting that if you fill up the front rank of a brick with ethereals (so people can't attack back) you shouldn't take a command, as characters will not displace command models.

You can make way to displace command when you make contact.

Hellstorm wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:Also worth noting that if you fill up the front rank of a brick with ethereals (so people can't attack back) you shouldn't take a command, as characters will not displace command models.

You can make way to displace command when you make contact.

Ah, yes, that is true. I forgot about that.

Here's a second opinion of the new unit roster, including special characters I've used. I'll try to avoid repeating what was said above.

Lords

Vampire Lord: If you're going to spend this many points on a character you have to make it count. There's a few ways to do this. The build mentioned above is good, but you can suffer against things with higher initiative/ASF and killing blow. Against assassins they'll go simultaneous with you and a 4+ ward is only a 50% chance of saving your general from a killing blow that will most likely lose you the game. I've been having success with a build of Red Fury, Quickblood, Nightshroud, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Other Trickster's Shard, Talisman of Protection. It's a character hunting build that is almost assured to kill any other character in the game so your Lord is safe. You should be very wary of enemy units with killing blow and powerful rank and file units/monsters though. Take full advantage of the ability of your lord to move from unit to unit to get the matchup you want. Alternatively if you want to go the caster route, to be worth his points you really need your caster lord killing things in close combat. So if you take Master of the Black Arts (better than most people say, just because it can save you from a terrible winds roll at a critical time. Don't just look at the averages) I would advise spending your items on a weapon, armour and a good ward. You're paying for that statline so you better use it. Another thing that can be tacked onto these builds is Fear Incarnate. Put your lord in a unit with the Screaming Banner and take another Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty and have a Wraith/Banshee to cause terror and you have a unit whose fear tests are very difficult to resist.

Strigoi Ghoul King: Can be effective in a Mortis Engine list since he gains a 4+ save. Always under any circumstances take the 5 point item that gives a 2+ save vs flaming attacks. Very vulnerable to killing blow but re-rolling hits in all combats is great, you have to be extremely careful when you pick your fights. I would consider this lord only if you're running a Mortis Engine, or if you really want a mounted Terrorgheist.

Master Necromancer: If you take a level 1 combat Vampire Lord on foot you should be able to afford a level four version of this guy which lets you not have all your points tied up in one basket. He can't get master of the black arts which is unfortunate but you can't beat the cost.

Vlad von Carstein: Vlad should only be taken with Isabella, period. He's not as effective at killing things as a full on combat lord nor is he that effective at casting but you pay for a lord that is extremely difficult to kill. I would consider Vlad against an army that takes a lot of character killers or killing blow units or death magic.

Count Mannfred: Mannfred is the best caster character in the book. He comes with 14 spells, MotBA, Dark Acolyte and the sword of unholy power can let you dominate the magic phase. The problem is he's paying for a high statline and is very vulnerable to just about everything in close combat. Taking Mannfred is very high risk high reward, because even more so than the other characters you have to pick your matchups well. If you get him into combat with skavenslaves, state troops, gnoblars, goblins skeletons or ideally zombies he's golden as he'll generate absurd amounts of power/dispel dice for you. If you want to improve his armour save to be at least useful you can take him on a Barded Nightmare and stick him in a Black Knight or Blood Knight unit, but that adds even more points to his cost.

Heinrich Kemmler: Kemmler is good. If you have the points upgrading a master necromancer into Kemmler nets you loremaster(potentially allowing your army to have 3 Vanhels if you grab the book and roll it with another wizard), +1 to dispel and the ability to turn ethereal to escape close combat attacks or war machines or fly and escape close combat entirely. He can also create new grave guard with close combat attacks but that's not really very important or useful. The problem with Kemmler is he's generally too pricy to include and still get a useful combat Vampire Lord.

Heroes

Vampire: The problem with Vampire heroes is they are a ton of points and toughness 4 with 2 wounds. You really really need to mitigate this so think about protection from rank and file first and foremost. Armour of Silvered Steel is a great choice since you can still take either a great weapon or an additional hand weapon (or warrior bane if you need a magic weapon). Beguile and Aura of Dark Majesty are good powers for a hero since one protects him and the other makes other things about your army better. Quickblood with a great weapon can be good too, strength 7 is nothing to sniff at.

Necromancer: These guys are great to provide cheap invocations and carry a dispel scroll or one of the excellent items in the Vampire Counts book. Cursed Book (usually casts a spell on a 10 for ~two powerdice with zero chance of failure or miscast), Rod of Flaming Death (beautiful for tarpitting large hordes) and the Staff of Damnation (amazing for great weapon grave guard) are all very useful in the right situation. Plus they're cheap channels for dice and prevent your army crumbling after your general's death.

Wight King: They're a hero with toughness 5 and 3 wounds. That is amazing. Don't even think about a Vampire battle standard bearer. Mitigating combat losses by 1 and re-rolling leadership tests for 25 points is worth it, and for 10 more points you can add flaming attacks to a grave guard horde. Alternatively, a Wight King can take an ogre blade and a dragonhelm for a 3+ save, strength 6, 2+ ward vs flame in addition to his very tough profile making a cheap (compared to a Vampire) and very effective fighter.

Wraith: Kind of costly and vulnerable for what it brings. I feel these are best used if you need to cause terror in a unit for a fear bomb or if you have a 5-wide tarpit unit that needs to negate attacks from a corner (If you have them on the edge of a 5-wide skeleton/zombie unit you'll negate 3 models unless they have magic weapons). Otherwise there are better ways to spend your points.

Banshee: Brings terror and attack negation like the wraith. Worth the points if you have aura of dark majesty and are fighting an army with good armour saves (Chaos Knights are a beautiful target). Especially worth the points if you have Doom and Darkness from lore of death. Otherwise kind of pricy. If your opponent has no magic missiles they can skirmish around the flanks and force terror tests on low leadership units hanging around the back of your opponents army.

Mannfred the Acolyte: The only hero level loremaster around. He's pricy but effective in that role. To really get him to be worth his points he has to be killing things though, and with his 5+ armour, toughness 4 and 2 wounds that's hard. I wouldn't take him unless I knew I could get him into combat with zombies or skavenslaves.

Isabella von Carstein: Auto-include if you're taking Vlad von Carstein, pointless otherwise.

Konrad von Carstein: Konrad has the same problem as Mannfred the Acolyte in that he needs to be in combat, but is terribly vulnerable in combat. Konrad must be near the general and near a battle standard bearer or he's very likely to fail his stupidity. I feel Konrad is best used as a suicidal character against monstrous infantry/cavalry with poor armour saves, try your best to get Hellish Vigour on him. Against an ogre unit, Konrad can get six hatred attacks, causing a maximum of 12 wounds, giving him 12 more attacks, possibly causing 24 more wounds, gutting said ogre unit. He'll die instantly whenever something hits back, but hopefully that round of combat was worth it.

Krell Lord of Undeath: Krell is a very expensive Wight King that is only conceivably worth his points when killing blowing ridden monsters in a challenge with Kemmler. For almost all intents and purposes a normal Wight King will serve about as well for half the cost.

Character Mounts

Zombie Dragon: Well worth its points against non-cannon armies. I would advise taking Nightshroud and Dread Knight on this monster. You can't refuse challenges anyway so you might as well make weapon skill 4 hit you on 6's. Nightshroud lets your dragon strike (and breathe) before your opponent in a challenge. Obviously suffers vs cannons since two cannon hits will on average kill both lord and mount, you better hope you can charge that cannon on turn 2 and you get the first turn. Worth pointing out that not very many armies have cannons though! Wouldn't take it to a tournament where you can't change lists though.

Terrorgheist: I really wouldn't bother taking this as a mount since you can take it by itself, the combination mentioned above is best if you want to. The one advantage is that you'll be able to march, but then the rest of your army won't.

Abyssal Terror: It's half the price of a Zombie Dragon or Coven Throne and still has a strength 5 thunderstomp and fly. The virtue of this mount is its low cost so I really wouldn't bother with the expensive upgrades for its massive 3 attacks.

Coven Throne: The lack of fly really hurts this compared to a Zombie Dragon since you can't pick your targets nearly as well, can't charge over top of your units and can't march since you're a chariot. It has a lot of goodies but you're still putting a huge target on your lord. You *can* take it with a hero but then your leadership for battle of wills is 3 lower.

Corpse Cart: I could see putting a necromancer on this if you didn't have a small skeleton or zombie bunker, but then you're eating up points in heroes instead of special. It just lets your opponent single out and kill your necromancer easier or kill both in one cannon shot, bad idea in my opinion.

Core

Zombies: Amazing unit. You'll want at least 60 of these, more if possible. I find multiple small units of these clog up your deployment, can be difficult to hit with all your invocations and die easier but if you have like 200 zombies it would work well. I prefer a single unit 5 wide to minimize attacks back, starting small but usually getting up to about 70-80 strong by the time you impact the enemy. Save your zombies when deploying and put them opposite an enemy unit with high strength attacks. They're gold against large monsters, demigryph knights, chaos knights, hell pit abominations and so on. The most valuable thing in their army will be stuck killing the least valuable thing in your army for most likely many turns. I feel like getting Zombies into the right matchup is often the key to winning with Vampire Counts. As an aside, combo charging a unit pinned by Zombies is almost always a bad idea because Zombies give up a billion combat resolution and will probably kill whatever your other unit is.

Skeletons: Now these have a different purpose entirely. If you're taking a Mortis Engine equip them with spears, otherwise hand weapon and shield. Skeletons have a 5+ armour and 6+ ward/regen in close combat compared to Zombies, which means against most everything they'll give up less combat resolution. What this means is that it's quite viable to pin a unit with skeletons (hopefully with the screaming banner and fear bomb Vampire, perhaps a Wraith or Banshee on the side) then crush them with something else on the flank. I believe the best formation is 5-wide, don't try to pretend Skeletons are going to kill anything, just minimize incoming attacks and give up as little combat resolution as possible while your characters do the killing.

Ghouls: Expensive and die about as easily or more easily than skeletons, can't take a banner so they generate one less static combat resolution. Ghouls can be used in two ways. Either in a big horde 40 strong as a hammer unit to break the enemy, or in small units to take advantage of their two attacks and kill your opponent's smaller units, or flank their larger blocks. Either way ghouls are best used against high toughness bad save models to get the best of their poisoned attacks. In the new book I've been leaning back towards a core entirely made of zombies and skeletons, ghouls have let me down with their high cost meaning my model count is too low. I tend to think Vampire Count's core should tarpit so your characters, specials and rares can do the actual damage.

Dire Wolves: They can't declare a flee reaction and can't march outside your general's range. For me this cripples dire wolves as a fast cavalry unit. A unit might not be bad to redirect enemy charges but they're a little pricy. Would only take them if also taking summon creatures of the night on a level 4.

Special

Corpse Cart: Lynchpin of magic heavy Vampires. Unholy Lodestone is a very good upgrade, Balefire is so so. You'll want book of arkhan to Vanhel's Danse the cart because of its slow movement. Almost a must-include unit.

Grave Guard: Great Weapons are still the way to go, 4+ armour and 6+ ward is just not worth giving up a unit with the ability to kill monsters and ignore armour saves for just 1 point per model. Banner of the Barrows is a must-include for a Grave Guard horde and this is a great place to put your Wight King battle standard bearer. And they should be a horde, minimum unit size 30 or they're going to crumble. If you want a smaller unit there are better ways to spend the points.

Black Knights: Spectral Steeds is why this unit is worth taking. If you set up your battlefield well, you can block enemy charges while your Black Knights can charge through buildings and impassable terrain. Lances and Barding are worth it. If you're going to take this unit, take a large unit 10+, ideally more. That way when you hit the flank they can disorder blocks and cause them to lose their rank bonus, and spectral steeds makes them particularly good at hitting the flank. They're an excellent target for Vanhel's danse because of their low weapon skill, but killing blow means they're great at fighting other knights as well.

Crypt Horrors: Powerful as stated above, but best to take in large units to avoid death to combat resolution. Mortis Engine basically must be taken if you're going to field them.

Vargheist: They're good no doubt, but really need to be used with care because of leadership 7 frenzy. If you happen to be taking a Lord on a flying steed or a mounted lord with knights they're much better.

Fel Bats: Should only be used with summon creatures of the night on a level 4 to get full use out of them. They're cheap and strong enough to adequately hunt war machines and skirmishers. If you take a unit of 2, summon creatures of the night will get that up to 5 strong with one cast.

Bat Swarms: Best used with great weapon grave guard. Hover means they can't flank very well, but your Grave Guard striking first/simultaneously can be the difference victory and defeat. If you can get the corpse cart ASF on the Grave Guard, then make your opponent strike last your great weapons will actually strike first against anything but an opponent with ASF and initiative 4+ (I.E. high elves).

Spirit Host: One of the best units in the book, you can take them as singles. This means you can drop them first during deployment and ensure you get the matchups you want which is so important for Vampires. They're extremely good at tarpitting large monsters and enemy skirmishers as well. You can't beat their cost.

Hexwraiths: Can't march outside the general's movement, extremely vulnerable to magic missiles and combat resolution (whoo 1 attack). I feel these are overpriced but still usable.

Rare

Black Coach: Lost some appeal because it no longer steals power dice from your enemy but at least it doesn't steal yours anymore. It's still extremely difficult to kill and once it gets killing blow an effective character hunter. It's almost immune to magic missiles and once it gets fly it dominates the board. Definitely a good choice.

Varghulf: The ability to march outside the general's bubble is the primary advantage of the Varghulf over the Terrogheist. It's very effective in combat for its cost and extremely fast moving. Another rare choice I don't feel you'd go wrong taking.

Cairn Wraiths: Lack of skirmishing and inability to march hurts them but they're the cheapest ethereal unit that can actually fight and kill things in close combat. What I said above about the Banshee also applies to the unit banshee, in that aura of dark majesty and doom and darkness drastically improve effectiveness. Considering they're competing against other rare choices though maybe not the best choice when you can take them in heroes instead.

Blood Knights: If you want to use Blood Knights effectively you really need to go all in to make the most of their high cost. I would say at least 5 strong, preferably 7, with flag of blood keep and ideally a mounted Vampire (hero or lord) with them, preferably with book of arkhan to give them re-rolls to hit, enchanted shield for 1+ armour save and obsidian trinket for 3+ ward vs magic missiles. Their marching away from the general is great and their killing power is outrageous (you're looking at 22 strength 7 attacks on the charge).

Terrorgheist: Not marching sucks, but you can hardly find a better unit at killing small, unprotected low leadership targets. This is another good rare choice but you have to be careful to avoid close combat. Don't bother with the expensive and not very useful upgrades.

Mortis Engine: The Mortis Engine can be a lynchpin in your army or a tacked on waste of points. It basically makes units such as the Strigoi Ghoul KIng, Ghouls and Crypt Horrors dramatically more useful. The Blasphemous Tome is best used with numerous low level casters because if your Lord miscasts near it you are in deep trouble. A level one necromancer can one dice invocation of nehek near a Blasphemous Tome and succeed on a 3+ so it can be effective for casting numerous spells. A hero Vampire with dark acolyte gains 2+D3 to the casting total of invocation and so can drain dispel dice effectively. If you're taking a Mortis Engine, plan your army around it, it's not something to be tacked on.



Hope that gives you some more perspective. When you're building your army, you have to look at how your units will work together. Whether you take a Mortis Engine or not dramatically changes how your army works. If you want to save 240 points you can avoid ghoul king, ghouls and crypt horrors and take hand weapon shield skeletons, a great weapon grave guard horde and blood or black knights along with a combat Vampire Lord who can be a level 4 wizard as well. Alternatively, you could go with the Mortis Engine, grab a Crypt Horror horde instead of Grave Guard and add ghouls to your core. Spirit Hosts are very effective for either, since getting matchups you want is so crucial and Zombies are basically must include for either as well as tarpitting your opponent's best units is often your best route to victory.

I don't know if you've decided on Vamps somewhere, or if they're just being louder, but I'll chime in on the Tomb Kings side.

Tomb Kings aren't a Top-Tier army. That's the first thing to know. Their army book is overall very good and decently balanced internally, but there are just a couple of things- wordings of rules, "Musts" instead of "May"s, etc- that keep them from being hyper-competitive. That said, they're still really, really fun.

Whereas the Vampire Counts is an army built by layering chaff and rubbish units around a diamond-hard core of Vampires and Necromancers, the Tomb Kings are a more homogenous army, with each unit supporting others in different ways.

One example of this is in Leadership and Crumble. Leadership, as I'm sure you remember, plays an enormous part in Fantasy combat. Undead, however, do not suffer from most of the drawbacks, but instead of being able to Break or Flee, they are Unstable, which means they lose more models at the end of combat if they've lost combat. This can quickly thin your ranks, especially as our basic troops tend not to be very survivable. They also Crumble when their Animating Character dies- this is the Heirophant for the Tomb Kings or the primary Necromancer/Vampire for the VC- the Linchpin of the army, who, if they die, causes the army to start dying with them, based on Leadership Checks. With VC, it's only once (unless certain things, but not worrying about that now) but the entire army has incredibly low Ld, and so a single unlucky roll can basically kill your entire army. With TK, however, it's continuous, but there's relatively high Ld across the board, meaning your entire army can keep going pretty easily after this character is dead

What's interesting is that VC tend to have this linchpin character out on the front lines, because they are generally absolute beasts in Combat, while TK keep theirs in bunkers as their primary Spellcaster.

VC are Offensive, TK are defensive.

VC have the March 'buff' from their main characters, while TK have My Will Be Done, which allows some characters (we call them Royals) to bestow their Weapons Skill on the entire unit.

VC have no shooting at all. TK have a good selection of Warmachines, as well as flat BS shooting at all times, paired with some pretty powerful bows, including a walking Bolt Thrower, that can also crush things pretty well in CC.

Tomb Kings also can have a very fast list- we have both Cavalry and Chariots (Units of CHARIOTS in Core, meaning we can have entire armies with M8.

And Tomb Kings (fluffwise) were around first. Vampires were the result of corrupted practices from the Death Cult of Nehekhara.

Hey guys, sorry for my absence. I recently moved to the UK and didn't have regular internet access for awhile.

Thanks a ton for those posts, Nitros and Anvildude - they are both extremely helpful! In response to your comment, Anvil, I think I have essentially decided upon VC. The main reason is that I already have a decent number of models for VC (all older models, though not REALLY old) - specifically, I have about a million vampire models, maybe 10 ghouls, maybe 10 "giant bats" (I don't know what their equivalent would be now - Fell Bats maybe?), probably 15 Dire Wolves, and maybe 40 skeletons and 40 zombies. I also have a metal Black Coach, a few models that would work as Banshees, and a few models that would work as Wraiths. The more I type, the more I'm remembering what else I have - I've also got a few special characters - old models of Vlad von Carstein and Heinrich Kemmler.

Outside of the skeletons, I don't have any models for TK. :( Though, even if I didn't have any models for VC, I think I would probably go with them anyway. I'm not really into the classical chariot models, and prefer weird ones like the Black Coach and the Corpse Cart. I really like monsters, and outside of the gigantic sphinx-like creatures I'm not immediately drawn to any of the TK models.

A question - what exactly is killing blow? Is it the same as Instant Death in 40K? And if it is, does everything and their mothers have it, just like in 40K?

It's more like Rending, really. On a 6 to wound, no armour; but with the added benefit of causing Instant Death as well. Can be blocked by a Ward Save, but no Regen(Feel No Pain). Also only works on certain types of models- Infantry, War Beasts and Cavalry. And the only army that really spams it is Tomb Kings, where you have entire units with it, and a spell that either gives or boosts it for everyone else.

Actually, doesn't about half of the armies have a Special unit with Killing blow?
Tomb Kings has the Tomb Guard, VC have the Grave Guard. I think Dark Elves has it too... Executioners? (not to ace on the other books, so I guess there'd be more armies with it out there).

The CF wrote:Actually, doesn't about half of the armies have a Special unit with Killing blow?
Tomb Kings has the Tomb Guard, VC have the Grave Guard. I think Dark Elves has it too... Executioners? (not to ace on the other books, so I guess there'd be more armies with it out there).

Don't forget bloodletters

I guess what I'm getting at is... when you're making army lists, is it common for people to actively consider Killing Blow because of how common it is, and subsequently alter your list because of it?

In 40K, Instant Death is very common, so people tend to go for a lot of redundancy to compensate for it. As an example, Nitros' explanation of Mannfred von Carstein above mentions that he's toughness 4 with 2 wounds. In 40K, Instant Death is so common that the only thing that really matters is that he has toughness 4 - the fact that he has 2 wounds is largely irrelevant because he's so easy to Instant Death because his toughness is low. This is partially due to how common Instant Death is, but also due to how Instant Death works in 40K, which, admittedly, is different than how it works in Fantasy.

Either way, I'm just trying to get a sense of how much this mechanic alters list building and gameplay.

Tangent wrote:I guess what I'm getting at is... when you're making army lists, is it common for people to actively consider Killing Blow because of how common it is, and subsequently alter your list because of it?

In 40K, Instant Death is very common, so people tend to go for a lot of redundancy to compensate for it. As an example, Nitros' explanation of Mannfred von Carstein above mentions that he's toughness 4 with 2 wounds. In 40K, Instant Death is so common that the only thing that really matters is that he has toughness 4 - the fact that he has 2 wounds is largely irrelevant because he's so easy to Instant Death because his toughness is low. This is partially due to how common Instant Death is, but also due to how Instant Death works in 40K, which, admittedly, is different than how it works in Fantasy.

Either way, I'm just trying to get a sense of how much this mechanic alters list building and gameplay.

It doesn't change anything, killing blow is sometimes prevalent, depending on army, but most will just take a standard list anyways and never really give it concern.

Tangent wrote:It did! Thanks. Though, what I guess I mean is... What kind of goal do the main tactics focus their attention on? As in, do you win via vampire combat, and so you do whatever it takes to keep your vamp protected? Do you win by making units rout with fear and chasing them off the board? Do you win by beating them with dice from your powerful units via flanking charges while your weak units like zombies and skeletons tarpit them?

fear no longer makes units autobreak. In 8th, Fear is no longer something to uhh Fear.

So what does fear do now? And terror?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It doesn't change anything, killing blow is sometimes prevalent, depending on army, but most will just take a standard list anyways and never really give it concern.

Not sure I agree with that sentiment. If a character is crucial to the operation of an army, I think killing blow protection definitely factors in. Whether that protection comes in the form of an item with explicit protection, a ward save, or simply the speed/flexibility to evade the matchups that might have your model run into killing blow depends on the list.

Fear reduces the enemy Weapons Skill, Terror can cause Breaks before you even get into combat. Terror is essentially like taking 1/4 casualties in Shooting, but without the Shooting or the 1/4 casualties.

Yep, definitely a different style of fear from what I remember.

So how easy is it to protect against Killing Blow? Surely a 4+ save isn't enough against an entire unit of guys with the ability...

Basically the only thing that protects you from it is an Invuln save (Ward save, that is) or being too big to kill easily- so Monsters, Monstrous Infantry and Cavalry, Swarms, and other big things. However, Heroic Killing Blow works on everything.