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Assault Vehicle: "Models disembarking from any access point of the land raider CAN launch an assault the turn they do so."
The assault vehicle rule permits the disembarked models to launch an assault. It doesn't make them assault at that point. This rules affects the unit the moment it disembarks from the LR. Otherwise this

Luide wrote: Note that same thing would apply in following scenario: Movement phase, I drive LRC 12" forward and I disembark my terminators. Shooting phase, my Vindicator shot scatters into LRC and destroys it. Assault phase, my terminators are now unable to launch assault.

would happen. Do you think its logical?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are under a false-assumption here(and thank you for the last line here which clarifies your false-assumption); A destroyed result is not a state of being. Non-vehicle models just get destroyed; Vehicle models are destroyed in 1 of 2 ways(wrecked or Explode)

GW's habit of mixing fluff and rules means this is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.


Destroyed - Wrecked
The attack critically damages the hull and internal
systems- the vehicle is destroyed. The model is left
in place and becomes a wreck (see page 62),

While I go with the interpretation that "the vehicle is destroyed" is fluffy and becoming a wreck is the actual status, it's hard to argue against an interpretation that says "look, the vehicle gets a status of destroyed before it gets a status of wrecked."

sudojoe wrote:The only debate is that one guy insists that you take one dangerous terrain check test at the start, and then one more at the end of the movement. We argue on this because the book says "if you begin or end etc, you take a dangerous terrain test"

I am on the side that says you just take a single test. The other guy insists you take one for each part of the movement you are in terrain. (usually we decide it on a roll off) though I am curious to what you guys think

You take 2 tests. When beginning and ending the movement. Otherwise how can you tell in which place to put the immobilised vehicle?

It is a single test for dangerous terrain.

In fact, other GW systems with similar rules always seem to go for one test (eg gothic and moving through blast markers).

Edit: Found the rule, page 57:

"Roll a d6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move."

Clearly it is one d6, as it doesn't say one per terrain.

So when you start and end your move in terrain, and fail 1 check where do you place the immobilised vehicle?

Its a single test for each phase mind you. If you move over a wreck its difficult, so if you are stuck on the wreck and in your shooting phase you run, you take the test again. Then if you are still on it in the assault phase and assault you test again. So you can in fact have to take three in a single turn.

If some one wants you to take 2 test for starting and ending in the same phase in terrain, punch them in the throat and shot playing them. It sounds like they are trying to abuse the rules. If you think about it. I am walking through a mind field (in real life) I start walking, nothing happens to me, but the guy next to me is blown up. I stop where i am with out setting off a mine. I am safe, I know that I am not dead because the ground i am standing on is safe, Why would there be 2 different tests? You test once to see if you got blown up during the course of your move, start to finish.

The reason it says start or finish, Is because its possible to start your move out of terrain and end in it. The real question is, That if i start out of terrain roll high enough so that i don't end my move in terrain do I have to test?

And for the wrecked and embarked troops, Does the transport lose its abilities or does the unit inside lose the transports abilities? the LRC gets blown up, it doesn't lose the ability to assault, the troop inside does. Ramshackle, is a transport ability that only effects the transport, it still happens because the unit inside loses the ability? Same thing with the frag launchers, The unit that would get the ability doesn't because the transport is wrecked, But the transport its self doesn't lose the ability. If that makes any sense. Maybe i am way out in left field about this. But seems right to me.

copper.talos wrote:So when you start and end your move in terrain, and fail 1 check where do you place the immobilised vehicle?

Well it does state:

"...if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

However, it also states before this:

"A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers and immobilised damage result..."

So if it halts immediately it would be before it interacts with the first piece of terrain it tests for. If it starts in terrain, it doesn't move at all.

We are talking about a skimmer that in example starts from a crater and ends up in a forest. Which of the 2 area terrains did it cause it to be immobilised? How can you convincingly tell it was the crater and not the forest since both have an equal chance on causing it to be immobilised?

Why would both have an equal chance? You take the test when you move out of, through or into terrain. You roll one dice, get a one. The first thing that caused you to take the test stops you.

Edit: Anyway, this is about grav chute insertion and passengers being destroyed. I really had never thought of this until it came up. I think the consensus is bending towards the "they get to disembark" interpretation, although I am open to points against as it does seem a bit odd. I don't think the "the rule doesn't work as the vehicle is dead" point is valid, as they disembark before it is actually wrecked.

But there are 2 conditions both equally elligible for taking the terrain test. You can't choose arbitrarily to test when moving out and not when moving in the terrain.

copper.talos wrote:But there are 2 conditions both equally elligible for taking the terrain test. You can't choose arbitrarily to test when moving out and not when moving in the terrain.

It is not arbitrary, it is chronological. Given two equal options, the one that occurs first should take precedence.

Your way makes the crater dangerous terrain as normal and the forest not dangerous at all. This is against the rules.
And there is no chronological reference in the rules regarding skimmers.

"Skimmers follow the normal rules for vehicles, with the additions and exceptions given below." - Page 71

So if there are "chronological references" for normal vehicles, and no exceptions for skimmers, then it applies to skimmers.

Also, I really don't get what you mean by "...the forest not dangerous at all." It is still dangerous, it is just that the vehicle will never reach it if it fails its test.

foolishmortal wrote:

Luide wrote:Note that same thing would apply in following scenario: Movement phase, I drive LRC 12" forward and I disembark my terminators. Shooting phase, my Vindicator shot scatters into LRC and destroys it. Assault phase, my terminators are now unable to launch assault.

Seriously? The infantry unit's ability to assault is allowed or disallowed strictly by the status of the transport they used to be in, not the rules in effect when they disembarked? Seriously?

Yes, that's exactly what the FAQ said. All wargear and/or special rules vehicle confers on a unit is gone the moment the vehicle is destroyed.

pg 36 Codex GK, LRC
"Assault Vehicle: Models disembarking from a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so."

So it's my assault phase, and I want to assault with my terminators. I check have if I have disembarked from my LRC (that has moved) during preceding movement phase. Answer is yes. So normally, I couldn't launch assault this turn. But if my LRC is still alive, I can, because of the Assault Vehicle special rule (and I'd get frag grenades too, from Frag Assault Launchers). But if my LRC is destroyed, my terminators benefit from neither Assault Vehicle nor Frag Assault Launcher special rules.

I have already stated my case that the 1 Dangerous terrain test that you make per movement should be at the end of the Movement for the model in question(in another thread months ago); I am not going to be re-hashing that, nor even re-stating my case(if you want to read what I have to say on that subject, feel free to dig through all my old posts until you find it, should be several dozen pages back).

What I am going to state is that the rules are incredibly clear that you only ever take 1 Dangerous terrain check; and that we are discussing a Skimmer here so the only time a dangerous terrain check would ever be involved is if the skimmer either starts or ends it's move in difficult/dangerous terrain.

There is no special allowance/requirement for a Skimmer to make a test for both starting and then ending it's move in difficult/dangerous; therefore there is none. Effectively the test is a single "piloting skill roll" made for the entirety of that move, and is done before any movement(this last part I disagree with but apparently I am in the Minority; and a left over sentence/example from an earlier edition where the test was taken with every entrance, exit, and move through the terrain takes precedence over the rest of the rule).

You start in a crater you treat it like dangerous terrain so you roll. OK. You end up in forest but you don't roll, so you don't treat it like dangerous terrain.

Let me demonstrate how easily exploitable is what you propose. I have a stormraven with my elite cc unit embarked, and I want to reach deep inside the enemy lines with a flat out move. The problem is that area is in a forest so I am afraid that if I lose the dangerous terrain test I lose not only the SR but the unit too. What you propose allows me to do this:
Start my movement outside terrain as normal, stop in a terrain ie the crater, within 12" check for dangerous terrain. If I roll a 1 I have my SR immobilised but the unit inside is safe. But if I don't roll a 1 I can continue to move and reach the forest without fear of getting immobilised and losing my unit.
That's why you test also when you end your move in terrain. To not get such exploitable immunity carrying troops anywhere you want.

I thought you could disembark anyway (so not losing the unit) using Shadow Skies/Skies of Blood? They won't be able to assault, but you can pick anywhere in your flat out path to place them - potentially behind BLOS cover.

What? You can't stop moving and then start moving again, you get a single move.

I really do want to get back to the OT by the way. However, I see the timing of the immobilised result as pertinent to the topic, as if you get immobilised at the start of your move you can't use grave chute, as there is no where to drop that you have passed over. I'll have to look up that thread Kel.

copper.talos wrote:You start in a crater you treat it like dangerous terrain so you roll. OK. You end up in forest but you don't roll, so you don't treat it like dangerous terrain.

Let me demonstrate how easily exploitable is what you propose. I have a stormraven with my elite cc unit embarked, and I want to reach deep inside the enemy lines with a flat out move. The problem is that area is in a forest so I am afraid that if I lose the dangerous terrain test I lose not only the SR but the unit too. What you propose allows me to do this:
Start my movement outside terrain as normal, stop in a terrain ie the crater, within 12" check for dangerous terrain. If I roll a 1 I have my SR immobilised but the unit inside is safe. But if I don't roll a 1 I can continue to move and reach the forest without fear of getting immobilised and losing my unit.
That's why you test also when you end your move in terrain. To not get such exploitable immunity carrying troops anywhere you want.

exactly; because those are the rules(sort of).

Skimmers do not "lay-over" anywhere between their start and end points, so the stopping in the Crater portion of your example is entirely fallacious.

Please cite where you need to roll at the end of the move as well.

Because it can be cited where you make 1 roll: BRB page 57, terrain effects: "Roll a d6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one of more areas of dangerous terrain during its move." Since that does not say for every area of dangerous terrain, you only make 1 roll.

This gets even worse for your failure to cope with the situation with an Ork trukk: Ork Trukk begins it's move in dangerous terrain, makes a test, passes, it then moves through a small area of dangerous terrain, no test needed, it then enters a new area of dangerous terrain to end it's move, no test is needed. The trukk has moved flat out this turn and since it was fine from the first DT test, the Boys on board do not have to worry about death at all.

2nd Trukk example: the trukk starts in dangerous terrain and intends to move flat-out; it is immobilized before ever moving; the boys get out without a problem and start running(trukk still count-as moving so the boyz could not actually move).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:I thought you could disembark anyway (so not losing the unit) using Shadow Skies/Skies of Blood? They won't be able to assault, but you can pick anywhere in your flat out path to place them - potentially behind BLOS cover.

You can.

Copper.Talos is arguing something else ridiculous and not based in the reality of the rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Skimmers do not "lay-over" anywhere between their start and end points, so the stopping in the Crater portion of your example is entirely fallacious.

It is but it isn't - you don't "stop" in the crater, but if you fail the DT test, you'll immobilize on the crater (before you actually went flat-out) and won't get destroyed.

That's his point.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Skimmers do not "lay-over" anywhere between their start and end points, so the stopping in the Crater portion of your example is entirely fallacious.

It is but it isn't - you don't "stop" in the crater, but if you fail the DT test, you'll immobilize on the crater (before you actually went flat-out) and won't get destroyed.

That's his point.

No he said Start in clear, stop in the crater(which is ignored by the skimmer), take the test, then continue moving to the forest.

Copper.Talos wrote:Start my movement outside terrain as normal, stop in a terrain ie the crater, within 12" check for dangerous terrain. If I roll a 1 I have my SR immobilised but the unit inside is safe. But if I don't roll a 1 I can continue to move and reach the forest without fear of getting immobilised and losing my unit.

Bolded and highlighted the pertinent bits of his fail.

Why in this forum there is always someone ready to start throwing insults?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the intermediate stop is what makes you go berserk then forget it. You start in the crater, roll for dangerous terrain, don't roll a 1 and you have immunity to go flat out to any terrain within 24" and keep safe both the skimmer and the unit embarked on. Logical?

I thought you would have to declare that you are going flat out before you make the DT test. Otherwise, if you failed you could just say "I was only going at combat speed" to save the people inside. Seems wrong.

I can't see anyone being insulted in this thread, although I may have missed something. Only a fool would insult someone over TT game rules anyway.

If I said what you saying is ridicoulous wouldn't you get insulted?

Anyway, you don't have to declare if you are doing a flat out move just as you don't have to declare you are going at combat speed. You may have turbo-boost on your mind, which is an entirely different thing.

copper.talos wrote:Why in this forum there is always someone ready to start throwing insults?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the intermediate stop is what makes you go berserk then forget it. You start in the crater, roll for dangerous terrain, don't roll a 1 and you have immunity to go flat out to any terrain within 24" and keep safe both the skimmer and the unit embarked on. Logical?

not just logical: the rules.

Also I didn't throw any insults; or at least that wasn't my intention. The statement about a "failure to cope with the situation" was intended to describe the problem you were seeing in the rules without referencing an inability to comprehend them(which would have seemed more inflammatory)

Or you could just provide your arguments and leave any derogatory personal comments aside.

It was not a derogatory personal comment; it was an address to the situation.

You were having difficulty with a set of circumstances; that difficulty was being addressed, the typical description of that difficulty is a failure to comprehend or understand the situation. I was attempting to Address the set of circumstances and call attention to the fact that those were the circumstances you needed assistance with, but doing so in a manner than was less offensive than proclaiming that you have a deficiency in comprehending the circumstances to begin with.

You know what; we are dragging this further off-topic unnecessarily.

Bottom line: the rules require 1 DT test/ Move, the consensus is that this test is made the first time the requirements to do so are met, Special rules granted by vehicles are lost when those vehicles are in one of the 2 destroyed states(a wreck, or removed), and disembarkation happens after the wrecked result is achieved but before the Wrecked state is applied.

Bottom line is you want a way to do flat out moves without endangering the embarked unit.

copper.talos wrote:Bottom line is you want a way to do flat out moves without endangering the embarked unit.

For Valks and Ravens, however, it's not required - as if you nuke the bird you can still deploy so the only risk is the bird.

copper.talos wrote:Bottom line is you want a way to do flat out moves without endangering the embarked unit.

Bottom line is, that's what the rules say.

The line in question even spells it out explicitly; "Roll a d6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move."

Bolded for emphasis. That part of the line, right there, clearly and explicitly states that you roll ONE d6, even if you have entered, left or moved through MULTIPLE areas of dangerous terrain. There is no other way to interpret it.

You cannot be forced to roll Dangerous Terrain more than once in any given Movement phase. Dangerous Terrain is a binary check; did you move through any Dangerous Terrain? If yes, roll a d6. If no, don't.

If you started in DT, you make a roll.

If you started in DT and then moved through another area of DT, you make a roll.

If you started in DT, moved through an area of DT, and then ended your move in a third area of DT, you make a roll.

In no case do you make multiple rolls.

However, I will also point out that the very same line indicates that you check AFTER your move is finished, and then adjust the vehicle's position if necessary. "Roll a d6 for every vehicle that has entered, left or moved through one of more areas of dangerous terrain during its move."

Once again, bolded for emphasis. This line indicates that the roll occurs AFTER your move is over; that is, once you roll, you cannot go back and 'move again', and you cannot roll before you move. If you want to go Flat Out, first you move Flat Out, then check to see if you moved over any DT and roll if you did. If you fail the roll, then the vehicle is Immobilized at the edge of the DT in question; that is, the near edge of the first piece of DT you entered, which is what sparked the roll.

In your example, copper.talos, if you start in a crater and then want to move Flat Out, first you make your move, remembering exactly where the Skimmer started. Then, at the end, you roll. If you fail the roll, boom, it's gone, along with the contents.