Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think wounds is the key. First off, if you got a block of 20 Ogres, that's an insane amount of dice and markers you potentially have to keep track of. But also, Dwellers affects Ogres the same way as anything else. If you stick 500pts of Ogres in a unit or 500 points of slaves or 500 pts of Warriors, they are all exactly equal. It just feels like it hurts more, but it's still 500 pts.

Actually, the ogres will get hurt more no matter what because they lose more points per failed test.

They are more likely to fail I tests and lose more points per failed one. They lose more pts per failed Str test also.

The fact they take less tests doesn't make up for it.

The Templar's got the gist of it, I think. Let's test this hypothesis.

Let's assume the Ogres will fail half their tests, and that all models will fail half the 'remove from play' tests. This seems okay, considering average strength, Initiative, Ld, etc between all different groups of core.

If you have, say 36 of a core of Dudes (I'm going by wounds, 'cause I don't know direct costs) and 12 Ogres, you're going to be loosing 18 of the Dudes and 6 of the Ogres.

Hmm. Interesting (and this isn't facetious or anything). Seems the Ogres would in fact loose the same number of Wounds per, at least in that instace. Let's try some different numbers.

90 Wounds. That's 90 Dudes (a good sized bus or Horde) and 30 Ogres. You lose half to a 6th. That's 45 Dudes, and 15 Ogres. Which is 45 wounds. Hmm.

Well, if you look at it purely from a Wounds standpoint, it's completely fair. Let's look at Cost, then, as Cost per Wound is often effected by other special rules that don't impact other things. For purposes of this discussion, I'll use Tomb Kings units, as I actually have that book.


400 Points. Core, that's 80 Skeleton Warriors with some upgrades. It's also 8 Ushabti with Great Weapons.

Take a test, half casualties. You're loosing 40 Warriors, 4 Ushabti. That's 200 points Warriors, and... 200 points Ushabti.


Sorry Templar, Science seems to have proved you wrong, at least in this case. I believe I might be able to provide an equation...

[deleted]

Rrr. Brain not working. Will come back when I've got an appropriate equation that can be used to quickly plug'n'chug different units to compare.

Except you have assumed that the stat being tested against is identical, most of the time its not.


Take Inititve. I4 vs I2.

300 points of Ogres vs 300 points of Empire Swordsmen vs 300 points of Empire Spearmen. 50 Swordsmen, 60 spearmen, 10 Ogres.

I test at I4. 17 Swordsmen die(rounding up) Math is 50x(1/3)= 16.66666667

I test at 3. 30 spearmen die. math is 60x(1/2) = 30

I test at I2. 7 ogres die(rounding up) Math is 10x(2/3) = 6.666666667

The Swordsmen lose 102 points of models, Spearmen lose 150 points, and the Ogres lose 210 points.

Ogres are unfairly punished because they are multi-wound and more expensive per point lost.



Now lets compare Strength with this same units.

Str test at Str3. 25 Swordsmen die. 30 spearmen die. Math is 50x(1/2) = 25, 60(1/2) = 30

Str test at Str4. 3 ogres die(rounding down) Math is 10x(1/3) = 3.333333333

Swordsmen and spearmen lose 150 points of models, Ogres lose 90.

So the Swordsmen lose more models to this test but the standard deviation of this test still unfairly causes them to lose more points the they should.

Lets compare Ogres to Chaos Warriors.

300 points of Chaos Warriors is 19(rounding 18.75 up)

19 Str tests at Str4. 6 Warriors die(rounding down) Math is 19x(1/3) = 6.33333333

thats 96 points of Warriors vs 90 points of Ogres. Roughly equal but again deviation from the average hurts ogres far more then it does the warriors as ogres only deal in losses of 30 points(usually more because of upgrades)

and with Inititive its even worse for the ogres. Only 3 Chaos Warriors die to I tests, a paultry 48 points compared to the Ogres 210 points.

I was attempting to determine an equation that would take into accound the Casualty Rate (how many die- easily calculated from the required d6 roll), Points per Model, Total Points started with, etc, etc. That way you could just plug a unit's Points per Model and Casualty Rate in, and determine the points lost.

If you're going by Points per Wound instead of Model, however, there's pretty much no difference, assuming a similar Test requirement.

I know there's something there, just can't think of it yet.

Doesn't work like that.

500 points is 500 points. Wounds is irrelevant because models aren't balanced on wounds, they are balanced on points (and even then models aren't balanced 1:1, it's their synergy in the entire army). A model might only have 1 wound but if it has a 1+ armor save and a 3+ ward save and ASF and Poison and KB and can fart lightning, it's vastly more valuable than a skaven slave which also has 1 wound.

But for the sake of argument, if you have 20 generic Bulls in a unit, that's 600 pts and 60 wounds. It is equivalent cost-wise to 100 generic Orc Boyz which are 100 wounds. If both lose 1/3 of their units, the Orc Boyz lost more wounds. OH NOZE, nerf Ogres! But they lose the same points.

You're playing 2000 point games or 2500 point games, not 235 Wound games.

As I said earlier, however, template-based doom spells hurt MI/MC more because you can fit more points into a given area.

But casting Dwellers on Ogres and casting it on any other race is the same. You're going to potentially lose however many points you shove into a star. And those lvl 6 spells are specifically designed as a counter. Or at least one of them.

I've never really had a major problem with Purple Sun or Pit of Shades, at least not nearly as big a problem as I have with Dweller's Below, and here's why:

Pit of Shades and Purple Sun, whilst very powerful, have balancing factors, apart from their relatively high casting costs. These balancing factors manifest themselves as unreliability, for Purple Sun it's the range, you're never sure whether it'll go as far as you need it, stop short, or you'll Misfire and hit yourself and your unit. Pit of Shades is similar, in that even once you cast it, it has a chance to scatter and do nothing, or do less damage than the effort of casting it requires.

Dweller's, as far as I can see, only has two balancing factors, both of which are not particularly useful at balancing it. One is its high casting cost, which makes sense, but isn't as effective a restriction as other high-cast spells are, I'll get onto that later. The other balancing factor is its range, only 12 or 24.

But here's the thing, 24" is a fair distance, and it would be a strange thing indeed if you had a battle in which your wizard never got within 24" of a unit he could Dwellers. Yes increasing the range increases the casting cost, but only to 21+ (I believe, I don't have the rulebook to hand).

And that leads onto my main point: the casting cost. This isn't an appropriate restriction because of the nature of the Lore of Life. Already an incredible Lore with its access to great defence (+ to toughness, regen, Shield of Thorns, etc), but most crucially, Throne of Vines, which allows you to ignore miscasts. This spell is a game changer.

Suddenly, instead of having a fairly straightforward risk/reward balance which involves casting what could be a very powerful spell, with the risk of miscasting or not casting at all, is mitigated by the fact that you don't need to care about miscasts anymore.

I honestly don't know why they put the Dweller's Below in the Lore of Life. When I was reading the Lore when 8th ed was first released, I was thinking "Great, a defensive Lore, no real aggressive spells except a rather mild d6 str 4 hits", but then BAM! Most effective offensive spell in the game. What the hell?


TL;DR: Dweller's is the only spell I'd apply the "Single Wound Only" rule to, because of the reasons above.

DukeRustfield wrote:Phoenix Guards are a whopping 4+. Horrors are 4+. Every other Daemon is 5+. Savage Orcs can get up to a 5+ with an item and a 4+ with item + special character. I don't know all the rest off hand, but I'm sure there's some.

Nope, only wurrzag gets the 4+, because he already has a 5+ to start with. The unit maxes at 5+ with shrunken head (which was to be taken by a different shaman, and costs a whole hero allowance of points).

Grey Templar wrote:Except you have assumed that the stat being tested against is identical, most of the time its not.


Take Inititve. I4 vs I2.

300 points of Ogres vs 300 points of Empire Swordsmen vs 300 points of Empire Spearmen. 50 Swordsmen, 60 spearmen, 10 Ogres.

I test at I4. 17 Swordsmen die(rounding up) Math is 50x(1/3)= 16.66666667

I test at 3. 30 spearmen die. math is 60x(1/2) = 30

I test at I2. 7 ogres die(rounding up) Math is 10x(2/3) = 6.666666667

The Swordsmen lose 102 points of models, Spearmen lose 150 points, and the Ogres lose 210 points.

Ogres are unfairly punished because they are multi-wound and more expensive per point lost.

By the same token you could say that elves are unfairly punished when they fight in hand to hand combat because they have low toughness and armor saves, despite having higher initiative.

It doesn't matter. Different game mechanics have different purposes and affect different units differently. Dweller's is meant to take out average and low initiative blocks of infantry. It should affect Ogres more than other units. The Ogres would put the hurt on other units in hand to hand combat.

If every unit was as good in every situation relative to their value - if they had no strengths and weaknesses, in other words - it would be a very boring game.

Grey Templar wrote:So the Swordsmen lose more models to this test but the standard deviation of this test still unfairly causes them to lose more points the they should.

What does this sentence mean. How can standard deviation cause a unit to anything?

it means that any results that differ from the established average will skew the results.


A slight deviation will punish/reward the Swordsmen far less then it will for the Ogres. If I fail 10% fewer tests with the Swordsmen it really doesn't do much as individually they arn't worth much, however 10% is "bigger" for the ogres as each test has more at stake.

10% is 10%.

The only time it will ever matter is the fact you can't take a partial unit. So you lose one whole ogre which isn't as divisible as swordsmen. But that works both ways, so if you saved 10% more, a whole extra ogre would live, which would round up to being more than 10% in terms of equivalent swordsmen.

But really, 10% is 10%. It all averages out. The larger the point values the higher and lower the peaks and valleys, but if you're using terms like standard deviation, you have to look across thousands of tests. In which case they would look almost exactly identical. Even if you swapped Ogres with Mournfangs.

The thing is tho have you ever had a whole unit of spearmen, great swords, chaos warriors etc ever go down away with 1 characteristic test spell?

The thing is spearmen or what ever will take casualties where as a whole unit of ogres gets erased and it dosnt really matter how much you buff or debuff the unit is gone.

Im all for spells like say gateway get an 11 or 12 on str and bye bye unit that has a lower chance to erase a unit where as purple sun will its a matter of oh you have bad stats brap your dead.

I can see the spell being meant for monsters for armies that usually have no counter to them but in some cases its very discouraging. I mean if every game everyone always casts purple sun and its like welp great turn one unit of ogres gone woot lets play a game of you have more points than me and because you can keep throwing 6 dice at a spell and on double 6s I cant do anything or there is the on any doubles its IF and ogres die.

Sorta why I stopped playing my ogres just too much of that haha IF again turn 2 and your down 18 ogres what fun.

Dont get me wrong I do expect things to die its just that spell infuriates me since no ogre player should let that spell get off at any point ever but when its impossible to stop it makes it hard to run a successful army. In which case you step up your game to stop that from happening and the same people complain that you have an unfair army.

If those spells could be made to just cause a wound rather than brap you would still loose a bunch of ogres but it stops units from getting erased.

My idea is if its monsters taht are by them self the spell should be characteristic test or die, but for units its just a wound for every fail with no saves. That would be cool imo. Would that possibly work or would that be too op?

Dr. Delorean wrote:
Pit of Shades and Purple Sun, whilst very powerful, have balancing factors, apart from their relatively high casting costs. These balancing factors manifest themselves as unreliability, for Purple Sun it's the range, you're never sure whether it'll go as far as you need it, stop short, or you'll Misfire and hit yourself and your unit. Pit of Shades is similar, in that even once you cast it, it has a chance to scatter and do nothing, or do less damage than the effort of casting it requires.

Dweller's, as far as I can see, only has two balancing factors, both of which are not particularly useful at balancing it. One is its high casting cost, which makes sense, but isn't as effective a restriction as other high-cast spells are, I'll get onto that later. The other balancing factor is its range, only 12 or 24.


TL;DR: Dweller's is the only spell I'd apply the "Single Wound Only" rule to, because of the reasons above.

Don't PoS and PS also allow for LoS saves, as they're templates? Whereas Dwellers is just "everyone in the unit" and thus even removes bunkers as protection for characters?

Basically, Dwellers is a spell that needs a redesign.

The entire Life Lore needs a redisign. Throne of Vines allows you to ignore Miscast on 2+. 2+! For a spell that's cast on 8+! You can cast a spell that reduces the dangers of IF to almost nothing on a single die if you want.(lvl4 or 3 assumed) And then there's Dwellers, which can't miss, can't misfire, can't be saved, and hits a whole unit regardless of anything. It allows the Caster to heal itself, further reducing the threat and tradeoff of IF...

Basically, if Throne of Vines was "Ignore miscasts on a 5+" or "re-roll on the miscast table" that'd be fine. If Dwellers required a to-hit roll before working, that'd be fine.



Essentially, though, the problem is that unit-busters like those are too cheap by far. Their Boosted cost should be their normal, and then the Boost is higher still. That way, when you have one of these big, Game Stopping spells go off, it'll either take all your PD or require an IF (and thus a Miscast).

Anvildude wrote:The entire Life Lore needs a redisign. Throne of Vines allows you to ignore Miscast on 2+. 2+! For a spell that's cast on 8+! You can cast a spell that reduces the dangers of IF to almost nothing on a single die if you want.(lvl4 or 3 assumed) And then there's Dwellers, which can't miss, can't misfire, can't be saved, and hits a whole unit regardless of anything. It allows the Caster to heal itself, further reducing the threat and tradeoff of IF...

Basically, if Throne of Vines was "Ignore miscasts on a 5+" or "re-roll on the miscast table" that'd be fine. If Dwellers required a to-hit roll before working, that'd be fine.



Essentially, though, the problem is that unit-busters like those are too cheap by far. Their Boosted cost should be their normal, and then the Boost is higher still. That way, when you have one of these big, Game Stopping spells go off, it'll either take all your PD or require an IF (and thus a Miscast).

Oh yeah, throne of vines is absurd. Especially if combined with stone skin.